France may ban religious symbols in public institutions

[Martin]

I'm surprised the French Bashing Corps haven't picked up this one yet.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A58151-2003Dec11.html

PARIS, Dec. 11 -- France should ban Muslim veils, Jewish skullcaps and large Christian crosses from its public schools, while creating new holidays to respect holy days of minority religions, a special commission recommended Thursday.

The long-awaited report on church-state relations, the centerpiece of a national debate over integrating Muslims into French society, advised the government to stand firm against militant Islam and efforts to undermine official secularism.

The report also urged traditionally Catholic France to respect "all spiritual options" in its increasingly diverse society and stressed that sexual equality was a key criterion in deciding whether certain practices were considered acceptable.

President Jacques Chirac said he would announce on Wednesday whether he would seek a law banning the veil, now a major issue in France as concerns rise over failed Muslim integration and the growing influence of militant Islam. He has hinted that he supports such a ban.
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The commission proposed barring "conspicuous signs of political or religious affiliation" but said discreet medals, such as a small cross or Star of David, were acceptable.

It also suggested adding Yom Kippur, the Jewish day of atonement, and the Eid al-Fitr festival at the end of Islam's Ramadan fasting month to a list of official school holidays.

Companies were advised to consider ways of allowing employees to take off the religious holiday of their choice.

 

[no0b]

whoa, they want to ban people from wearing jewish skull caps, muslim veils, and large Christian Crosses?

people, as in the students attending the public schools?

 

[Martin]

Originally posted by: no0b
whoa, they want to ban people from wearing jewish skull caps, muslim veils, and large Christian Crosses?

people, as in the students attending the public schools?

yes, and possibly hospitals too...

 

[no0b]

Originally posted by: MartyTheManiak

Originally posted by: no0b
whoa, they want to ban people from wearing jewish skull caps, muslim veils, and large Christian Crosses?

people, as in the students attending the public schools?

yes, and possibly hospitals too...

absurb, as long as it doesn't interfere with the learning proccess or the "healing" proccess why ban it?

I don't like it.

 

[GrGr]

I recall reading that there has been a lot of tension and even clashes in French schools between groups of different ethnicity such as French students, Jewish students and Muslim students.

 

[ReiAyanami]

the Red Cross and Salvation Army can beat the french pansies, no wonder france wants to ban, its cheaper than buying white flag kits for their army.

boy it'll be rough wri(t)ing _hose essays wi(t)hou(t) the le(tt)er "t"

 

[ReiAyanami]

Fuhrer Chirac said he would dennounce on Wednesday whether he would seek a law banning the veil, now a major issue in France as concerns rise over failed Muslim integration. Those who do not abide will be deported to special labor camps... :Q

assimilate or die!!

ironic that they want to increase the celebration of diversity by enforcing confimity

 

[Martin]

Originally posted by: no0b

Originally posted by: MartyTheManiak

Originally posted by: no0b
whoa, they want to ban people from wearing jewish skull caps, muslim veils, and large Christian Crosses?

people, as in the students attending the public schools?

yes, and possibly hospitals too...

absurb, as long as it doesn't interfere with the learning proccess or the "healing" proccess why ban it?

I don't like it.

I think so too, but I see where they're comming from... It would be absurd to even try that here in Canada and the US, but I think the situation is different in France. I read some good posts on K5 and it seems that France really, really values their secularism, since the priesthood was basicly a different class of nobility before their revolution, hence rather disliked. What they are trying to do is integrate muslims (primarily) so the don't become militants and try to get sharia implemented and basicly bring down the French Republic from inside.

Good idea, but I don't know if this is the best way to approach the problem...

 

[peonyu]

Maybe if the French bothered to enforce thier secular laws when they first allowed non-french to move there they wouldnt be having this problem now, but its a little to late now, at the rate that the Muslim immigrant population is growing France will have a Muslim majority in about 50 years.

 

[peonyu]

Originally posted by: no0b
whoa, they want to ban people from wearing jewish skull caps, muslim veils, and large Christian Crosses?

people, as in the students attending the public schools?

As it is now, a Jew cannot walk in France wearing a skull cap without getting attacked by muslims who brought thier hatred of israel/jews with them from the middle east. And christian crosses already are forbidden in schools, this new law is all about attempting to integrate muslims into french society and the part about skullcaps/crosses is just being PC about it so they dont feel singled out.

Still I dont think this will change much, there are vast areas of Paris and other cities that are self-segregated from french society where not even children can speak french, though its a start I guess.

 

[magomago]

Originally posted by: peonyu
Maybe if the French bothered to enforce thier secular laws when they first allowed non-french to move there they wouldnt be having this problem now, but its a little to late now, at the rate that the Muslim immigrant population is growing France will have a Muslim majority in about 50 years.

...and this is assuming that all Muslims in france are militant...

and who the hell cares what the dominant religion is in the country? You make it sound like they should try to minimize all and any influence that Muslims in the country carry.

 

[peonyu]

Originally posted by: magomago

Originally posted by: peonyu
Maybe if the French bothered to enforce thier secular laws when they first allowed non-french to move there they wouldnt be having this problem now, but its a little to late now, at the rate that the Muslim immigrant population is growing France will have a Muslim majority in about 50 years.

...and this is assuming that all Muslims in france are militant...

and who the hell cares what the dominant religion is in the country? You make it sound like they should try to minimize all and any influence that Muslims in the country carry.

If they become a majority then they could vote in Sharia law, and since the majority of them are not integrated into society what says that they wouldnt ?

"You make it sound like they should try to minimize all and any influence that Muslims in the country carry."

I never said that.

 

[magomago]

Originally posted by: peonyu

Originally posted by: magomago

Originally posted by: peonyu
Maybe if the French bothered to enforce thier secular laws when they first allowed non-french to move there they wouldnt be having this problem now, but its a little to late now, at the rate that the Muslim immigrant population is growing France will have a Muslim majority in about 50 years.

...and this is assuming that all Muslims in france are militant...

and who the hell cares what the dominant religion is in the country? You make it sound like they should try to minimize all and any influence that Muslims in the country carry.

If they become a majority then they could vote in Sharia law, and since the majority of them are not integrated into society what says that they wouldnt ?

"You make it sound like they should try to minimize all and any influence that Muslims in the country carry."

I never said that.

They could - but how do you know that most of them will vote it in.

Look at the USA- the majority religion is christianity and we COULD go to some religous code also, but that doesn't mean it'll happen.

As for integration that isn't something that happens overnight. Usually the immigrant generation never gets fully integrated anyway and it is their kids that become integrated and learn the language and culture...and by the 3rd or 4th generation you usually have complete assimilation into the respective society.

 

[DragonMasterAlex]

I'm an Atheist and even *I* think this is ridiculous. Does it ever occur to anyone that even a state enforced *atheism* constitutes an establishment of religion?

Bedtime.

Jason

 

[Mean MrMustard]

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
I'm an Atheist and even *I* think this is ridiculous. Does it ever occur to anyone that even a state enforced *atheism* constitutes an establishment of religion?

Bedtime.

Jason

Agreed. The same thing is happening in the US. Luckily, the courts have ruled the opposite in our (the people's) case so far.

 

[boran]

you miss the point somewhat, this law is because public schools are supposed to be religion free, they're not endorsing atheism they're just saying, here everybody is equal. and they force everybody to be on equal terms, nobody will know what religion another person has unless that persion tells them. this would reduce prejudice a bit, and also stop the movement of conservative muslims.

the situation is like this, in turky there's a strict separation of religion and the gouvernment, in all gouvernment institutes religion is not shown in any way, yet in france they wore their religious symbols, so france was more islamitic than turky, odd situation ainnit.

I think this is a good deal tho, forces ppls to think about it, and if they dont like it they can go to private schools, public schools represent the gouvernment and should be neutral.

in belgium it's a bit different, but here the muslim fundamentalism is not a strong movement, you see as much muslims without religious symbols as with them. it's not a big deal, the situation in france was a bit different.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: ELP

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
I'm an Atheist and even *I* think this is ridiculous. Does it ever occur to anyone that even a state enforced *atheism* constitutes an establishment of religion?

Bedtime.

Jason

Agreed. The same thing is happening in the US. Luckily, the courts have ruled the opposite in our (the people's) case so far.

Where have you guy's been? Athiests have been filing lawsuits like mad in the U.S. and winning. Look in the God thread.

The Judge that fired Judge Moore admitted he is an Athiest.

Athiests filed a lawsuit last week to have all roadside cross memorials removed as they are "offended" by seeing the religious icons as they drive.

It's an onslaught.

 

[boran]

Where have you guy's been? Athiests have been filing lawsuits like mad in the U.S. and winning. Look in the God thread.

The Judge that fired Judge Moore admitted he is an Athiest.

Athiests filed a lawsuit last week to have all roadside cross memorials removed as they are "offended" by seeing the religious icons as they drive.

It's an onslaught.

well the atheists are a bit radical overthere then, cant agree with such things, but like I said, the thing in france I can agree with, seperation of church and gouvernment. banning crosses from the sides of the roads is overreacting, and goes in against free speech.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: ELP

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
I'm an Atheist and even *I* think this is ridiculous. Does it ever occur to anyone that even a state enforced *atheism* constitutes an establishment of religion?

Bedtime.

Jason

Agreed. The same thing is happening in the US. Luckily, the courts have ruled the opposite in our (the people's) case so far.

Where have you guy's been? Athiests have been filing lawsuits like mad in the U.S. and winning. Look in the God thread.

The Judge that fired Judge Moore admitted he is an Athiest.

Athiests filed a lawsuit last week to have all roadside cross memorials removed as they are "offended" by seeing the religious icons as they drive.

It's an onslaught.

A small handful of Atheists. Most Atheist don't give a sh!t. If you really were to be honest Dave you would mention that there are more Fund A Mental Case Christians who are trying to push their believes down the throats of those who don't share their views than there are Atheists doing the same thing!

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: ELP

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
I'm an Atheist and even *I* think this is ridiculous. Does it ever occur to anyone that even a state enforced *atheism* constitutes an establishment of religion?

Bedtime.

Jason

Agreed. The same thing is happening in the US. Luckily, the courts have ruled the opposite in our (the people's) case so far.

Where have you guy's been? Athiests have been filing lawsuits like mad in the U.S. and winning. Look in the God thread.

The Judge that fired Judge Moore admitted he is an Athiest.

Athiests filed a lawsuit last week to have all roadside cross memorials removed as they are "offended" by seeing the religious icons as they drive.

It's an onslaught.

A small handful of Atheists. Most Atheist don't give a sh!t. If you really were to be honest Dave you would mention that there are more Fund A Mental Case Christians who are trying to push their believes down the throats of those who don't share their views than there are Atheists doing the same thing!

One overly Religious Judge put a Monument where it didn't belong, that hardly compares to the movement by the Athiets.

 

[Gaard]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: ELP

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
I'm an Atheist and even *I* think this is ridiculous. Does it ever occur to anyone that even a state enforced *atheism* constitutes an establishment of religion?

Bedtime.

Jason

Agreed. The same thing is happening in the US. Luckily, the courts have ruled the opposite in our (the people's) case so far.

Where have you guy's been? Athiests have been filing lawsuits like mad in the U.S. and winning. Look in the God thread.

The Judge that fired Judge Moore admitted he is an Athiest.

Athiests filed a lawsuit last week to have all roadside cross memorials removed as they are "offended" by seeing the religious icons as they drive.

It's an onslaught.

I thought it was a panel that removed Moore?

And where if it was just one man, could you supply a link confirming your claim? Honestly Dave, you post so much BULLSH!T that I don't know what to believe.

 

[DragonMasterAlex]

Well I can't speak for most Atheists, because I find them to be as disturbingly stupid as the Christian Fundamentalists, but my take is this:

Separation of church and state means that the government shall not officially *endorse* any religion of any kind. I would take this to mean *even Atheism.* I might also point out that this is strictly on a Federal level, and that there is no reason local governments cannot or should not have official religions. If a bunch of people who happen to be Quakers want to get together and form a town where the official religion is Quakerism (mmm...oatmeal...) I see no reason in the world why they should not be allowed to do so. We really need to bear in mind the work of men like Thomas Jefferson and James Madison in the area of securing religious liberty for everyone.

As Jefferson put it, "it makes no difference to me whether my neighbor claims there are no gods or twenty gods; it neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."

Believe what you want, put up your symbols, it doesn't bother me and it *shouldn't* bother anyone else. Express yourself and respect the rights of others to do the same.

Jason

 

[gaga38]

Originally posted by: peonyu

Originally posted by: no0b
whoa, they want to ban people from wearing jewish skull caps, muslim veils, and large Christian Crosses?

people, as in the students attending the public schools?

As it is now, a Jew cannot walk in France wearing a skull cap without getting attacked by muslims who brought thier hatred of israel/jews with them from the middle east. And christian crosses already are forbidden in schools, this new law is all about attempting to integrate muslims into french society and the part about skullcaps/crosses is just being PC about it so they dont feel singled out.

Still I dont think this will change much, there are vast areas of Paris and other cities that are self-segregated from french society where not even children can speak french, though its a start I guess.

stop telling lies
a jew can walk in france without getting attacked
this law was voted at the beginning to prevent the islamic proselytism at scholol because of the laic constitution. In order to accodomate everyone the law was extended to symbol of christians and jews.
stop centering all the pbs on jew/muslim situation, it is so easy
and for the self segregated aeras go look in the us, the phenomenom is wide spread

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Gaard

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: ELP

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
I'm an Atheist and even *I* think this is ridiculous. Does it ever occur to anyone that even a state enforced *atheism* constitutes an establishment of religion?

Bedtime.

Jason

Agreed. The same thing is happening in the US. Luckily, the courts have ruled the opposite in our (the people's) case so far.

Where have you guy's been? Athiests have been filing lawsuits like mad in the U.S. and winning. Look in the God thread.

The Judge that fired Judge Moore admitted he is an Athiest.

Athiests filed a lawsuit last week to have all roadside cross memorials removed as they are "offended" by seeing the religious icons as they drive.

It's an onslaught.

I thought it was a panel that removed Moore?

And where if it was just one man, could you supply a link confirming your claim? Honestly Dave, you post so much BULLSH!T that I don't know what to believe.

It was a panel of the other Judges and the lead Judge said straight out he was an Athiest. This is what was reported back when those articles and posts. Can't help the extreme and convenient memory losses of the AT experts in here.

 

[Martin]

Originally posted by: magomago

Originally posted by: peonyu

Originally posted by: magomago

Originally posted by: peonyu
Maybe if the French bothered to enforce thier secular laws when they first allowed non-french to move there they wouldnt be having this problem now, but its a little to late now, at the rate that the Muslim immigrant population is growing France will have a Muslim majority in about 50 years.

...and this is assuming that all Muslims in france are militant...

and who the hell cares what the dominant religion is in the country? You make it sound like they should try to minimize all and any influence that Muslims in the country carry.

If they become a majority then they could vote in Sharia law, and since the majority of them are not integrated into society what says that they wouldnt ?

"You make it sound like they should try to minimize all and any influence that Muslims in the country carry."

I never said that.

They could - but how do you know that most of them will vote it in.

Look at the USA- the majority religion is christianity and we COULD go to some religous code also, but that doesn't mean it'll happen.

As for integration that isn't something that happens overnight. Usually the immigrant generation never gets fully integrated anyway and it is their kids that become integrated and learn the language and culture...and by the 3rd or 4th generation you usually have complete assimilation into the respective society.

The problem is, times change and these days its really hard to integrate. Irish and Italian immigrants to america did not have access to italian and irish sattelite channels, newspapers etc.