France and the burqa

[CanOWorms]

Since you are such an extreme troll i'll give you this reply but after this one, i'm putting you on ignore, you're not even a clever troll, you're like the Avocado Confetti of the Anti Europe League.

It seems strange to me that consent laws are a fact in every nation in the EU but in the US you can fuck a 14 year old in the arse and say that you were too drunk to understand.

Aye, the US leading the way... sorry, we'll have none of it.

Sorry, but that is just ridiculous. Being drunk is not a valid defense. It's obvious that you're way too confused and out of your element on complicated issues.

You have an interesting self-defense mechanism though.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

I agree with all that - but I draw the line at agreeing with JOS. (And thank you for not quoting his post so that I face that admission. I'm fairly sure my head would explode.)

I it'd make you feel any better i did use your online name as a callsign send out during an exercise mission, it fucked everything up..

"weeerepossum, weeeeeeerepossum" come.

"There aren't any bloody opossums in Kabul you stupid twat"

Oh and agreeing with me is the first sign of sanity.

 

[AreaCode707]

Kind of like how Christian women accept that they are below their husbands?

What good has religion ever done for women?

They are not "free" to do wear that any more than they are "free" to be beaten the living daylights out of if their husbands think they deserve it in which case any proper Christian or Muslim woman should agree since the man IS head of the household and that is where this shit comes from, well that and old testament stuff that even Jewish women are supposed to follow.

There is a sheitload of difference between a hijab and a niqab/burqa, if you don't get the difference, think about network vs cable in the US.

Freedom in these cases and in the case of Indians is to abort their caste system and their religious system of honor. Then fathers murdering their daughters in the name of their family honor wouldn't be a problem.

It's not a religious thing, it's opression of those seen as lesser worth and it exists in every religion.

So we should liberate them from being told what to wear by their husbands by telling them what to wear?

The issue of oppression is one that needs to be faced, but we need to tackle that by legislating against abuse and intimidation, not clothing.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

So we should liberate them from being told what to wear by their husbands by telling them what to wear?

The issue of oppression is one that needs to be faced, but we need to tackle that by legislating against abuse and intimidation, not clothing.

No, we should allow them to wear whatever THEY want to wear without fear of retribution. How bloody hard is that to get? Oh, i know, you're a "Christian" woman and you need to be told by SOMEONE if you need to go shit or not but in reality, you really don't need anyone, not religion, not church, not society and not any man to tell you anything, you CAN be completely free to go shit when you need to or whatever else... You DON'T need anyones permission.

I'm sorry if my use of language is non-courteous but iit's how i'd describe it to anyone of my men.

 

[AreaCode707]

No, we should allow them to wear whatever THEY want to wear without fear of retribution.

Maybe I read your original posts wrong; weren't you arguing in favor of banning hijab/burqas? If you are arguing AGAINST legislatively banning those then we're on the same page.

How bloody hard is that to get? Oh, i know, you're a "Christian" woman and you need to be told by SOMEONE if you need to go shit or not but in reality, you really don't need anyone, not religion, not church, not society and not any man to tell you anything, you CAN be completely free to go shit when you need to or whatever else... You DON'T need anyones permission.

I'm sorry if my use of language is non-courteous but iit's how i'd describe it to anyone of my men.

I have no idea where you're getting this idea or why you're projecting it on me.

As you can CLEARLY tell by my submissive posts on this forum, I am constantly in need of the approval of others, especially you men, and I bow to the superior male intellect at all times. /sarcasm

I'm a corporate career gal who's chosen not to have kids (despite the general approbation of society/right wing Christian culture), opts to live with my husband and two unmarried men, doesn't cook and hates babies. Where in that does it look like I'm seeking permission for my decisions?

 

[Colt45]

I see no problem. I think the burqa goes against 'liberté, égalité, fraternité' in a lot of cases.

 

[IGBT]

If a woman wants to cover up why shouldn't they? This is another example of government intervention gone awry. The powerful politicians in France can't get enough of their own mistresses. In addition, they want to violate the innocence of these unfortunate Muslim women living in France. Socialism at its best.

well if they really want to screw them up the french could enforce feminism on the burqa babes. thats a psychological burqa if there was ever one.

 

[Kadarin]

So we should liberate them from being told what to wear by their husbands by telling them what to wear?

The issue of oppression is one that needs to be faced, but we need to tackle that by legislating against abuse and intimidation, not clothing.

Good point. While some women may publicly state that they choose to wear the burqa, others will be killed by their family for refusing to wear even the hijab: http://misskelly.typepad.com/miss_kelly_/2007/12/16-year-old-you.html

On the page I link to there is a comment from a reader:

im muslim women & im not wearing hijab & no one from my family members asked me to wear it or choose to me what to wear , i think these people are fanatic so dont judge Islam becuse its peasful , fanatic or Mulsilms who really misunderstand the meaning of Islam only do awful things like that.

I have a Muslim coworker who expressed essentially the same feelings when I presented him with this story, so it seems to be a fairly common theme. The problem is that the father and brother who killed this poor girl really believed that they were right to do so, because of Islam.

I do not believe for one second that all women in the world of Islam really want to wear the burqa. I do not even believe that most do. Not really.

 

[werepossum]

Good point. While some women may publicly state that they choose to wear the burqa, others will be killed by their family for refusing to wear even the hijab: http://misskelly.typepad.com/miss_kelly_/2007/12/16-year-old-you.html

On the page I link to there is a comment from a reader:



I have a Muslim coworker who expressed essentially the same feelings when I presented him with this story, so it seems to be a fairly common theme. The problem is that the father and brother who killed this poor girl really believed that they were right to do so, because of Islam.

I do not believe for one second that all women in the world of Islam really want to wear the burqa. I do not even believe that most do. Not really.

Too bad this was Canada and not Texas, where the two men could bask in Allah's glory relatively quickly.

 

[Craig234]

Good point. While some women may publicly state that they choose to wear the burqa, others will be killed by their family for refusing to wear even the hijab: http://misskelly.typepad.com/miss_kelly_/2007/12/16-year-old-you.html

On the page I link to there is a comment from a reader:



I have a Muslim coworker who expressed essentially the same feelings when I presented him with this story, so it seems to be a fairly common theme. The problem is that the father and brother who killed this poor girl really believed that they were right to do so, because of Islam.

I do not believe for one second that all women in the world of Islam really want to wear the burqa. I do not even believe that most do. Not really.

What if most women in a US city don't really want to wear any top, at least in some situations like in their yard with water or at the beach?

While guys, most of whom have smaller breats than most of the women, with the same two nipplies, are free to walk around without a top?

 

[Patranus]

Why should the government be telling anyone how to dress/what to wear?
(Especially a religious symbol)

 

[HumblePie]

Why should the government be telling anyone how to dress/what to wear?
(Especially a religious symbol)

Like when our government says you have to wear clothing in public, or girls can't go without tops in public, or you can't wear hats on federal property, or you can't wear sunglasses or head coverings in a bank, or you can't wear gang clothing such as bandana on government property, or...... do I really need to continue this list?

Oh, and to a "gang member" their choice of clothing can be considered a religious article for them as well.

Your argument is moot. Some places and situations require people to conform to societies needs at that time.

No the government should NOT be telling people how to dress in their own homes or even walking down a public street, but in the right situation they sure can and need to. Just like you can't yell "FIRE!" in a public theater when there is no fire.

 

[CanOWorms]

Like when our government says you have to wear clothing in public, or girls can't go without tops in public, or you can't wear hats on federal property, or you can't wear sunglasses or head coverings in a bank, or you can't wear gang clothing such as bandana on government property, or...... do I really need to continue this list?

Oh, and to a "gang member" their choice of clothing can be considered a religious article for them as well.

Your argument is moot. Some places and situations require people to conform to societies needs at that time.

No the government should NOT be telling people how to dress in their own homes or even walking down a public street, but in the right situation they sure can and need to. Just like you can't yell "FIRE!" in a public theater when there is no fire.

Those things you listed serve some public policy (other than the ones you listed which are false). France's plan serves none other than unfair oppression. It's to appease the far-right for political gain. It has no rational basis.

 

[yllus]

So we should liberate them from being told what to wear by their husbands by telling them what to wear?

The issue of oppression is one that needs to be faced, but we need to tackle that by legislating against abuse and intimidation, not clothing.

Hmm, I think I agree with you on that. The issue isn't the piece of clothing, it's what that clothing supposedly represents. Treating the symptom and not the cause isn't going to accomplish much.

However, I also think there's some internal consistency to this action. Canada does not allow men or women to walk naked in public. The reasoning behind that it goes against a commonly shared ideal of decency. Is a French law against the overt subjugation of women in the form of a burkha - because it's against their notion of equality - that different?

The issue of whether a burkha/hijab is "good" or "bad" is interesting on its own as well. It runs into this interesting conflict between national ideology and individual freedoms. I know plenty of women who say they willingly wear a hijab. About a third don't know that the Koran does not mandate wearing of the hijab. Most claim that the hijab lets them preserve their modesty - a disturbing statement in my eyes. Some claim they feel freer wearing one - an even more disturbing statement. Strange, divisive notions from otherwise well-educated, well-adjusted people.

 

[AreaCode707]

Hmm, I think I agree with you on that. The issue isn't the piece of clothing, it's what that clothing supposedly represents. Treating the symptom and not the cause isn't going to accomplish much.

However, I also think there's some internal consistency to this action. Canada does not allow men or women to walk naked in public. The reasoning behind that it goes against a commonly shared ideal of decency. Is a French law against the overt subjugation of women in the form of a burkha - because it's against their notion of equality - that different?

The issue of whether a burkha/hijab is "good" or "bad" is interesting on its own as well. It runs into this interesting conflict between national ideology and individual freedoms. I know plenty of women who say they willingly wear a hijab. About a third don't know that the Koran does not mandate wearing of the hijab. Most claim that the hijab lets them preserve their modesty - a disturbing statement in my eyes. Some claim they feel freer wearing one - an even more disturbing statement. Strange, divisive notions from otherwise well-educated, well-adjusted people.

I'm not sure why you find this disturbing. I would be intensely uncomfortable in a micro-mini skirt and see-through halter top, but that's acceptable clubbing wear right now. My perception of what is modest is much more important to my comfort than society's perception of modesty. If some of these women feel that showing their hair, or their knees or whatever is immodest, that's up to them.

My own standards don't come from having been taught that there's something wrong with the human body and, if that's where theirs are coming from then we should work to change the REASON for their feelings about modesty, but there's nothing wrong with the feeling itself.

 

[werepossum]

I'm not sure why you find this disturbing. I would be intensely uncomfortable in a micro-mini skirt and see-through halter top, but that's acceptable clubbing wear right now. My perception of what is modest is much more important to my comfort than society's perception of modesty. If some of these women feel that showing their hair, or their knees or whatever is immodest, that's up to them.

My own standards don't come from having been taught that there's something wrong with the human body and, if that's where theirs are coming from then we should work to change the REASON for their feelings about modesty, but there's nothing wrong with the feeling itself.

All that may be true, but as Turkey has known for the better part of a century, the best way to defeat radical Islam is to deny it the trappings it needs to enforce. If the women who wish to do so are forbidden to wear the garments of oppression, then the women who do not wish to do so are freed from being forced to wear them, and thus radical Islam is denied its power to control. (They do retain their power to blow up, however.) Sadly Turkey's secular grip is slipping, so its reign as a non-Islamist nation is probably not long for this world.

 

[AreaCode707]

All that may be true, but as Turkey has known for the better part of a century, the best way to defeat radical Islam is to deny it the trappings it needs to enforce. If the women who wish to do so are forbidden to wear the garments of oppression, then the women who do not wish to do so are freed from being forced to wear them, and thus radical Islam is denied its power to control. (They do retain their power to blow up, however.) Sadly Turkey's secular grip is slipping, so its reign as a non-Islamist nation is probably not long for this world.

I agree with your facts here. Not sure if we disagree on our priorities though.

As you stated, the Turkish approach is effective. The question becomes whether it is more important that we be effective or more important that we do not add another restriction to liberty.

I would place liberty higher than effectiveness, and would hope we can target fear and oppression in other ways. Others might place effectiveness higher than liberty on this issue at this point in time and I respect that opinion as very valid. It's a close call for me to make too.

 

[brownzilla786]

All that may be true, but as Turkey has known for the better part of a century, the best way to defeat radical Islam is to deny it the trappings it needs to enforce. If the women who wish to do so are forbidden to wear the garments of oppression, then the women who do not wish to do so are freed from being forced to wear them, and thus radical Islam is denied its power to control. (They do retain their power to blow up, however.) Sadly Turkey's secular grip is slipping, so its reign as a non-Islamist nation is probably not long for this world.

I cant say I am educated in Turkish society, but lets say for arguments sake that ALL women in Turkey are forced to wear the hijab or burqa by someone else. Now lets look at America, where the vast majority of muslim women wear the hijab it on their own accord. Would you apply the same rulings, i.e, forbidding them to wear the hijab, simply because in another country they are forced to wear it? The same argument could be said about France. I personally oppose the law, simply because I believe that the women are not FORCED to wear it (but then again I do not live in France so I don't really know).

 

[Vic]

A govt that can tell Muslim women not to wear a burqa can tell everyone to wear a uniform of some kind. I mean, forget the obvious bigotry of the idea, this is supporting the notion that govt has the right to enforce some kind of dress code (and no, laws against public nudity don't apply here).

 

[yllus]

I'm not sure why you find this disturbing. I would be intensely uncomfortable in a micro-mini skirt and see-through halter top, but that's acceptable clubbing wear right now. My perception of what is modest is much more important to my comfort than society's perception of modesty. If some of these women feel that showing their hair, or their knees or whatever is immodest, that's up to them.

My own standards don't come from having been taught that there's something wrong with the human body and, if that's where theirs are coming from then we should work to change the REASON for their feelings about modesty, but there's nothing wrong with the feeling itself.

It's disturbing to me because of the ignorance and divisiveness of the statements.

It's ignorant because these women do so as a statement of faith, unknowing that the Koran advocates nothing of the kind. If they actually know enough to cite the Hadiths, 99% of women are still wearing the hijab incorrectly (no hair should be visible) or are not following other equally important rules on how to dress modestly (according to Islam). Really, it's a brilliant statement on how well-read most Muslims are on their own religion.

I have never met a woman who wears the hijab willingly (as in not because of subtle or overt pressure from her parents) who does not privately gloat about being more moral than non-Muslim women. Many if not most people have similar thoughts, but within a group of people prone to self-segregation, it takes on added significance.

 

[Descartes]

I remember on my first trip to India, I stepped out of the airport and onto an auto-rickshaw. As we took off, around the corner there were dozens of women in burqas. This was at about 3AM, it was really hot and just had an overall surreal experience.

When I visited a lot of the mosques and old palaces, it was interesting to see that the whole burqa concept was all over. When there were parties in the palaces, the "respected" women were up top, and they only had areas for their eyes so you couldn't see their bodies. They'd look down on the party-goers, including women without burqas.

So, as I understand it, the burqa was less about being subordinate and more about protecting the dignity of the women in the context of gross male savagery at the time. Not that that's a surprise.

It doesn't make it right, and I still think France is inclined to do as they please.

 

[Mursilis]

How about we tell Jews no Yamikas allowed? Our culture is to respect diversity. We can advocate for womens' rights without stepping on the culture's modesty for women and women who like them.

I agree with this assessment. It's akin, to me, to the free speech conundrum - free speech for all may lead to speech you don't agree with. Do you still protect that sort of speech? If you truly value free speech, you do.

 

[AreaCode707]

It's disturbing to me because of the ignorance and divisiveness of the statements.

It's ignorant because these women do so as a statement of faith, unknowing that the Koran advocates nothing of the kind. If they actually know enough to cite the Hadiths, 99% of women are still wearing the hijab incorrectly (no hair should be visible) or are not following other equally important rules on how to dress modestly (according to Islam). Really, it's a brilliant statement on how well-read most Muslims are on their own religion.

I have never met a woman who wears the hijab willingly (as in not because of subtle or overt pressure from her parents) who does not privately gloat about being more moral than non-Muslim women. Many if not most people have similar thoughts, but within a group of people prone to self-segregation, it takes on added significance.

I was quoting your specific discomfort around women who prefer feeling modest through wearing their religious clothing because that's the only part I didn't understand. Your discomfort with women dressing that way thinking their religion advocates it is understandable to me.

So your discomfort about the women who wear it out of modest is less about their modesty and more about the pride and condescension, that makes sense to me. Thanks for explaining.

 

[werepossum]

I cant say I am educated in Turkish society, but lets say for arguments sake that ALL women in Turkey are forced to wear the hijab or burqa by someone else. Now lets look at America, where the vast majority of muslim women wear the hijab it on their own accord. Would you apply the same rulings, i.e, forbidding them to wear the hijab, simply because in another country they are forced to wear it? The same argument could be said about France. I personally oppose the law, simply because I believe that the women are not FORCED to wear it (but then again I do not live in France so I don't really know).

I believe Turkey still bans the burqa, although I may be out of date, and I know it's not enforced in some rural areas. But my thoughts vis-a-vis France had nothing to do with Turkey per se; I was merely using Turkey as an example of a place where these bans had worked admirably in preventing radical Islam from making gains in society. But I agree with AreaCode707, it's a close call either way as to whether or not it's a good move, if the restraining effect on radical Islam is worth letting the government get it's camel's nose under your dressing tent.