France and the burqa

[Kadarin]

From here: http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/01/25/france.burqa/index.html?hpt=Sbin

Paris, France (CNN) -- French lawmakers could recommend Tuesday that the fiercely secular country ban the burqa, the full-body covering worn by some Muslim women.

French President Nicolas Sarkozy controversially told lawmakers in June that the traditional Muslim garment was "not welcome" in France.

"The problem of the burqa is not a religious problem. This is an issue of a woman's freedom and dignity. This is not a religious symbol. It is a sign of subservience; it is a sign of lowering. I want to say solemnly, the burqa is not welcome in France," Sarkozy said.

I know this discussion has come up before in the context of whether or not Muslim women should be allowed to wear the hijab, but the burqa is in another league entirely. Generally speaking, here in the US I see women wearing the hijab and really don't give it much thought (I'm in San Jose, CA, an area usually fairly tolerant of outside cultures). However, I can see myself and a lot of others reacting quite a bit more negatively if we saw women walking around wearing burqas, and I have never personally seen a woman wearing one. So I'll throw this out for discussion and as you all what you think. Is France right in wanting to ban this, whether it be for religious or other (pretending not to be, perhaps) reasons? Does one person's freedom to be Muslim conflict with another's desire to disagree with how Islam treats women?

Of course, you could argue that you're doing something right if Al Qaida threatens to retaliate.

 

[Zebo]

If they don't like it GTFO, Just like a western woman forced to wear burqa in Saudi Arabia needs to leave if she don't like it. When in Rome...

 

[Schadenfroh]

I have only seen someone wearing a burqa only a handful of times. I see hijab clad women all the time, mostly at my university where they are working on a degree.

I do not understand why their government would legislate such a thing if the woman, voluntarily, wishes to wear one. If this was in the US, I would say that it is definitely a personal freedom to chose to wear one or not. However, I can see when they should have take it off, like for a photo ID.

 

[CanOWorms]

I've seen women in burqas in the Boston suburbs before.

Great, another security threat to the United States. I don't understand why we're not sending drones into France to assassinate their terrorist legislators.

If they actually cared about a woman's freedom and dignity then they would also ban nuns.

 

[Infohawk]

Terrorist legislators? These muslims have the option of adapting or leaving. That's not terrorism. Terrorism is threatening mass civilian killings if you don't get your way.

France has a cultural history and identity that includes nuns (less and less in modern times of course). Why should they have to tolerate bizarre _foreign_ customs in their own country?

 

[Craig234]

How about we tell Jews no Yamikas allowed? Our culture is to respect diversity. We can advocate for womens' rights without stepping on the culture's modesty for women and women who like them.

 

[JEDIYoda]

If they actually cared about a woman's freedom and dignity then they would also ban nuns.

Thats is so damn stoopid you idiot!!
Nun`s do not wear their head gear when all the time. they also willingly remove it for photo ID pictures......

So let me guess you just happenned to show up and pick this thread to troll in....

 

[CanOWorms]

Terrorist legislators? These muslims have the option of adapting or leaving. That's not terrorism. Terrorism is threatening mass civilian killings if you don't get your way.

Threats of mass civilian killings is only a few steps away for the French government. This is only the dawn of a program of elimination.

France has a cultural history and identity that includes nuns (less and less in modern times of course). Why should they have to tolerate bizarre _foreign_ customs in their own country?

Last time I checked, much of these people are French. It is their own country. It's not foreign.

I'm not aware of many religions developing in France, including Catholicism.

 

[CanOWorms]

Thats is so damn stoopid you idiot!!
Nun`s do not wear their head gear when all the time. they also willingly remove it for photo ID pictures......

So let me guess you just happenned to show up and pick this thread to troll in....

That is not my argument. How is a woman's freedom and dignity promoted by the male-dominated hierarchy which nuns exist in? They are even forbidden from engaging in routine human behavior.

 

[JEDIYoda]

That is not my argument. How is a woman's freedom and dignity promoted by the male-dominated hierarchy which nuns exist in? They are even forbidden from engaging in routine human behavior.

Yopu are so full of shit and very mis- informed and arrogant......
You are trolling the thread changing thge issue from being the burka and attempting - unsuccessfully I might add at changing the topic...

 

[CanOWorms]

Yopu are so full of shit and very mis- informed and arrogant......

Interesting, the same can be said of those trying to ban a certain piece of fabric.

You are trolling the thread changing thge issue from being the burka and attempting - unsuccessfully I might add at changing the topic...

It's not changing the topic. The article states Sarkozy claiming the motivation is "a woman's freedom and dignity."

 

[IGBT]

The quran does not specifically mention the burqa or tells women to wear such extremely confining clothes. In islam, it's a mans world. islamic males like to exert full control over "their" women to the point of using a modified straight jacket called a burqua. The burqua is also used to confine women to islamic communities. It's a way to assure they won't associate outside the islamic loop. France should outright ban the burqa and it's variants.

 

[CPA]

Terrorist legislators? These muslims have the option of adapting or leaving. That's not terrorism. Terrorism is threatening mass civilian killings if you don't get your way.

France has a cultural history and identity that includes nuns (less and less in modern times of course). Why should they have to tolerate bizarre _foreign_ customs in their own country?

Didn't you know that sovereignty is politically incorrect?

 

[Craig234]

Let's cut this "when in Rome" argume off at the bud.

What it's saying IMO is the benefit of partaking in the local customs - but not where is violates your own rules.

If you go to Rome and see people enjoying a glass of wine with Lumnch and you never have, do it - if it doesn't violate your rules, like you're a Jehova's Witness or an alcoholic.

No one is saying, "Italy, pass a lass requiring wine at lunch and require it by law."

There's always a balance of 'respect a nation's local customs', and tolerancde for variations whether local or foreign visitor.

It's just a bunch of Xenophobuic bigots who salivate at the chance to put bans on the hated foreign culture of the day's customs and look forward to laughing at them not being allowed to follow them or be jailed.

And oh yes, require the Burkas off for photo id's. That is a reasonable violation to the preference.

 

[shiner]

If they don't like it GTFO, Just like a western woman forced to wear burqa in Saudi Arabia needs to leave if she don't like it. When in Rome...

What he said....

 

[shiner]

That is not my argument. How is a woman's freedom and dignity promoted by the male-dominated hierarchy which nuns exist in? They are even forbidden from engaging in routine human behavior.

Routine human behavior?

Ummmm....

I work at a Catholic institution and 80% of the Sisters wear normal street clothes. They can wear whatever they want. Hell they run the place, not the Priest.

 

[alphatarget1]

if they actually cared about a woman's freedom and dignity then they would also ban nuns.

lol

 

[Rockinacoustic]

Does one person's freedom to be Muslim conflict with another's desire to disagree with how Islam treats women?

Does it present a danger to those who disagree? No. I could give a crap if they wore dunce caps, it's still their right. If they want to "westernize" let them do so at their own discretion.

 

[VashHT]

I don't see why this bothers people so much, it's just a piece of clothing that they choose to wear. The security risk argument isn't really valid either, if people want to cover their faces to commit a crime they could do it any number of other ways. Kind of funny though how people on this forum freak out about Christian symbols being banned in the public place but turn around and say it's ok to ban religious clothing.

 

[StageLeft]

I think they are ridiculous but not as ridiculous as a law against them; that is wrong; France is wrong in this.

Where it is simply practical to demand their removal, like for a driver's license, that makes sense, but simply because you don't like it/don't believe in it is nuts. You could make the argument for the shieks with their weird hats or jews with theirs or people with crosses or whatever else or hicks with baseball caps.

 

[Infohawk]

Threats of mass civilian killings is only a few steps away for the French government. This is only the dawn of a program of elimination.

Myeah.... this is where you get into 911 conspiracy theory territory and really lose any credibility.

 

[Infohawk]

France is wrong in this.

.... You could make the argument for the shieks with their weird hats or jews with theirs or people with crosses or whatever else or hicks with baseball caps.

Yes, one could make a rule against wearing baseball caps. We have rules against nudity. The difference is an arbitrary cultural one, not a matter of human rights.

Of course you're skipping over the fact that the burqa is probably the most restrictive misogynist form of garb there is. That, along with the inability of muslims to assimilate, is why France is doing this.

 

[WHAMPOM]

From here: http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/01/25/france.burqa/index.html?hpt=Sbin



I know this discussion has come up before in the context of whether or not Muslim women should be allowed to wear the hijab, but the burqa is in another league entirely. Generally speaking, here in the US I see women wearing the hijab and really don't give it much thought (I'm in San Jose, CA, an area usually fairly tolerant of outside cultures). However, I can see myself and a lot of others reacting quite a bit more negatively if we saw women walking around wearing burqas, and I have never personally seen a woman wearing one. So I'll throw this out for discussion and as you all what you think. Is France right in wanting to ban this, whether it be for religious or other (pretending not to be, perhaps) reasons? Does one person's freedom to be Muslim conflict with another's desire to disagree with how Islam treats women?

Of course, you could argue that you're doing something right if Al Qaida threatens to retaliate.

The burqa is not "Muslim", but tribal custom. And "custom" is not a religious right.

 

[Nitemare]

Would be nice if France banned it, the Qur'an says modest apparel for women not wearing a burqa. They just use it as yet another way to put women as second and third class citizens

 

[cubeless]

Let's cut this "when in Rome" argume off at the bud.

snip

And oh yes, require the Burkas off for photo id's. That is a reasonable violation to the preference.

ahh, so it's ok to make her take it off for a picture? so then it's ok to have her take it off if she's stopped on the street and needs to present id? what if she is not fully clothed underneath?

and 'yamika' is one of your pokemon, yarmulke is the jew hat you wanted to idiotically compare to this situation...