France and Germany reject US Iraq plans

[BOBDN]

From the BBC

Stand firm chaps! Let Bush sink before helping in Iraq.

If Chirac and Schroeder give in to Bush he'll never learn his lesson. This being the first time in Bush's life he's had to take responsibility for anything he's done it's important to make him take learn there are consequences to his actions.

France and Germany reject US Iraq plans

 

[kaizersose]

yes, screw over the iraqi's that you claim you were trying to help in order to save face. that's the mature thing to do.

 

[phillyTIM]

Originally posted by: BOBDN
From the BBC

Stand firm chaps! Let Bush sink before helping in Iraq.

If Chirac and Schroeder give in to Bush he'll never learn his lesson. This being the first time in Bush's life he's had to take responsibility for anything he's done it's important to make him take learn there are consequences to his actions.

France and Germany reject US Iraq plans

I like your style, BOBDN! I totally, 125% echo what you say!

 

[BOBDN]

Originally posted by: kaizersose
yes, screw over the iraqi's that you claim you were trying to help in order to save face. that's the mature thing to do.

No, screw Bush. Once he's gone then help the Iraqis. There is NO helping them while Bush is in power. Period.

All Bush wants is someone to clean up his mess so he can continue to build his outpost in Iraq. What arrogance.

 

[BOBDN]

Originally posted by: phillyTIM

Originally posted by: BOBDN
From the BBC

Stand firm chaps! Let Bush sink before helping in Iraq.

If Chirac and Schroeder give in to Bush he'll never learn his lesson. This being the first time in Bush's life he's had to take responsibility for anything he's done it's important to make him take learn there are consequences to his actions.

France and Germany reject US Iraq plans

I like your style, BOBDN! I totally, 125% echo what you say!

 

[gsaldivar]

Originally posted by: BOBDN
From the BBC

Stand firm chaps! Let Bush sink before helping in Iraq.

If Chirac and Schroeder give in to Bush he'll never learn his lesson. This being the first time in Bush's life he's had to take responsibility for anything he's done it's important to make him take learn there are consequences to his actions.

France and Germany reject US Iraq plans

LOL

Real big of you.

Let's screw the Iraqis to teach Bush a lesson.

So I guess a UN presence in Iraq isn't quite as important as you hippie peaceniks first claimed?

 

[BOBDN]

Originally posted by: gsaldivar

Originally posted by: BOBDN
From the BBC

Stand firm chaps! Let Bush sink before helping in Iraq.

If Chirac and Schroeder give in to Bush he'll never learn his lesson. This being the first time in Bush's life he's had to take responsibility for anything he's done it's important to make him take learn there are consequences to his actions.

France and Germany reject US Iraq plans

LOL

Real big of you.

Let's screw the Iraqis to teach Bush a lesson.

So I guess a UN presence in Iraq isn't quite as important as you hippie peaceniks first claimed?

You're a couple of decades late with the hippie peacenik BS there sparky.

It is now 2003.

As for screwing the Iraqis, no. Bush has done a great job of that already.

Now it's Bush's turn in the barrell and Chirac and Schroeder are going to teach him how to pay for his arrogance.

Bravo!

 

[SuperTool]

You mean calling them chocolate makers while trying to get their support is not the best strategy?

 

[gsaldivar]

Originally posted by: BOBDN
Chirac and Schroeder are going to teach [Bush] how to pay for his arrogance. Bravo!

Riiiiiiight.

And exactly how is that going to happen BOBDN?

France and Germany aren't opposed to international aid to Iraq - They are saying that the US's plan doesn't provide enough of it.

France and Germany aren't opposed to having the UN in Iraq - They are simply opposed to the US being completely in charge of it.

It's politicking - pure and simple. But one thing is clear - while we argue over how much, and who is in control - the Iraqi people are suffering. Just as they have been suffering since before the war.

 

[lozina]

Originally posted by: gsaldivar

Originally posted by: BOBDN
From the BBC

Stand firm chaps! Let Bush sink before helping in Iraq.

If Chirac and Schroeder give in to Bush he'll never learn his lesson. This being the first time in Bush's life he's had to take responsibility for anything he's done it's important to make him take learn there are consequences to his actions.

France and Germany reject US Iraq plans

LOL

Real big of you.

Let's screw the Iraqis to teach Bush a lesson.

So I guess a UN presence in Iraq isn't quite as important as you hippie peaceniks first claimed?

Speaking after talks in Germany, Mr Chirac said the US proposals "seem quite far from what appears to us the primary objective, namely the transfer of political responsibility to an Iraqi government as soon as possible".

In the draft text published on Thursday, the US says the UN should play a role in preparing for a new Iraqi government but it does not cede any political or military control.

Please stop trying to put a spin on it by saying they are screwing the Iraqis. The Iraqis need some political power here, I thought we were liberating them from a dictatorship- expanding the horizons of Democracy, right?! But no, the US does not want to give them anything, so now who's doing the screwing?

 

[phillyTIM]

You can blame that suffering on Bush. Let him carry the full brunt of the weight.

 

[Lonyo]

So I guess a UN presence in Iraq isn't quite as important as you hippie peaceniks first claimed?

Bush ignored the UN in invading Iraq, now he wants their help because he created a mess and wants out.

Just as they have been suffering since before the war.

So the war in Iraq hasn't helped the Iraqi people yet then?
Maybe Bush should have planned it a little better so he didn't end up with a long drawn out campaign in which the people of Iraq ended up suffering.

It would seem France and Germany want total UN control, which is fair enough, since the US basically got us into the current position, and it seems like they haven't been able to get out of it so far, so the UN should have a go without US interference. But of course, the US just ignored the UN anyway, so why should they really bother at all?
I think it should be all or nothing, since the US wanting a little bit of help may lead to them getting aid or more troops, but not listening to the UN on things such as rebuilding Iraq.

 

[BOBDN]

Originally posted by: gsaldivar

Originally posted by: BOBDN
Chirac and Schroeder are going to teach [Bush] how to pay for his arrogance. Bravo!

Riiiiiiight.

And exactly how is that going to happen BOBDN?

France and Germany aren't opposed to international aid to Iraq - They are saying that the US's plan doesn't provide enough of it.

France and Germany aren't opposed to having the UN in Iraq - They are simply opposed to the US being completely in charge of it.

It's politicking - pure and simple. But one thing is clear - while we argue over how much, and who is in control - the Iraqi people are suffering. Just as they have been suffering since before the war.

I'll tell you how. They're gonna' have a little Texas style barbecue. And Bush is gonna' be roasted!

Bush is a foreign policy neophite. All talk. He insulted Chirac and Schroeder and now he needs them.

Wow, payback is a bitch. Chirac and Schroeder are experienced enough to know you don't just burn your bridges 'cause someday you'll need them.

If they allow Bush to get away with the tactics he used in ignoring the UN, world opinion, American opinion and THE OPINION OF TWO OF OUR MOST IMPORTANT ALLIES Bush will never learn what Chirac and Schroeder already know.

It will be a very painful but valuable lesson for Bush. One he never had to learn with that silver spoon in his mouth. How to get along with other people.

Unfortunately Bush won't be able to use his new found knowledge. At least not on the world stage (where the imbecile never belonged in the first place). He'll be long gone after he's left out to dry in Iraq.

Maybe he can use the lesson he learns back in Crawford. Where he belongs.

 

[gsaldivar]

Originally posted by: lozina<b>Please stop trying to put a spin on it by saying they are screwing the Iraqis. The Iraqis need some political power here, I thought we were liberating them from a dictatorship- expanding the horizons of Democracy, right?! But no, the US does not want to give them anything, so now who's doing the screwing?

Huh?

When did the US say they didn't want to "give [the Iraqis] anything"?

 

[lozina]

Originally posted by: gsaldivar

Originally posted by: lozina<b>Please stop trying to put a spin on it by saying they are screwing the Iraqis. The Iraqis need some political power here, I thought we were liberating them from a dictatorship- expanding the horizons of Democracy, right?! But no, the US does not want to give them anything, so now who's doing the screwing?

Huh?

When did the US say they didn't want to "give [the Iraqis] anything"?

Allow me to repeat my quote from the article then, since you missed it the first time:

Speaking after talks in Germany, Mr Chirac said the US proposals "seem quite far from what appears to us the primary objective, namely the transfer of political responsibility to an Iraqi government as soon as possible".

In the draft text published on Thursday, the US says the UN should play a role in preparing for a new Iraqi government but it does not cede any political or military control.

 

[gsaldivar]

Originally posted by: BOBDN

Originally posted by: gsaldivar

Originally posted by: BOBDN
Chirac and Schroeder are going to teach [Bush] how to pay for his arrogance. Bravo!

Riiiiiiight.

And exactly how is that going to happen BOBDN?

France and Germany aren't opposed to international aid to Iraq - They are saying that the US's plan doesn't provide enough of it.

France and Germany aren't opposed to having the UN in Iraq - They are simply opposed to the US being completely in charge of it.

It's politicking - pure and simple. But one thing is clear - while we argue over how much, and who is in control - the Iraqi people are suffering. Just as they have been suffering since before the war.

I'll tell you how. They're gonna' have a little Texas style barbecue. And Bush is gonna' be roasted!

Bush is a foreign policy neophite. All talk. He insulted Chirac and Schroeder and now he needs them.

Wow, payback is a bitch. Chirac and Schroeder are experienced enough to know you don't just burn your bridges 'cause someday you'll need them.

If they allow Bush to get away with the tactics he used in ignoring the UN, world opinion, American opinion and THE OPINION OF TWO OF OUR MOST IMPORTANT ALLIES Bush will never learn what Chirac and Schroeder already know.

It will be a very painful but valuable lesson for Bush. One he never had to learn with that silver spoon in his mouth. How to get along with other people.

Unfortunately Bush won't be able to use his new found knowledge. At least not on the world stage (where the imbecile never belonged in the first place). He'll be long gone after he's left out to dry in Iraq.

Maybe he can use the lesson he learns back in Crawford. Where he belongs.

Dude,

We're not talking about three bullies duking it out in a schoolyard here; these are the leaders of three nations. I think it's safe to assume that most people here at Anandtech have more than a high school education - So maybe try to treat the subject with a little respect. Personalizing the issue at hand with the ad hominem attacks doesn't do much for your own credibility... not to mention that of your argument.

 

[Miramonti]

not only does bush and his cronies want to own iraq, they want to own the UN. Fvck them, hooray for europe!

 

[gsaldivar]

Originally posted by: lozina

Allow me to repeat my quote from the article then, since you missed it the first time:

Speaking after talks in Germany, Mr Chirac said the US proposals "seem quite far from what appears to us the primary objective, namely the transfer of political responsibility to an Iraqi government as soon as possible".

In the draft text published on Thursday, the US says the UN should play a role in preparing for a new Iraqi government but it does not cede any political or military control.

I read the article.

Maybe you can explain why you think having the US in control of a UN peacekeeping force excludes the democratization of Iraq?

It might be helpful to read the actual proposed US resolution, rather than a reporter's interpretation of it.

"...Invites the Governing Council to provide in co-operation with the Authority operating in Iraq and the Special Representative of the UN Secretary General a timetable and program for the drafting of a new constitution for Iraq and for the holding of democratic elections..."

 

[jahawkin]

Wait, I thought the UN was deemed "irrelevant" just 6 months ago - what gives??

 

[BOBDN]

Originally posted by: gsaldivar

Dude,

We're not talking about three bullies duking it out in a schoolyard here; these are the leaders of three nations. I think it's safe to assume that most people here at Anandtech have more than a high school education - So maybe try to treat the subject with a little respect. Personalizing the issue at hand with the ad hominem attacks doesn't do much for your own credibility... not to mention that of your argument.

But Bush did exactly that. Treated it like three bullies duking it out in a schoolyard.

Now he's made one hell of a mess out of Iraq and Powell and the Joint Chiefs have made him realize just what they told him right from the beginning. The US can't handle it alone.

If you're gonna' use the tactics Bush used in forcing the US into the unnecessary invasion of Iraq and then get totally screwed because of your arrogance there is a price to pay. Bush is paying the price. He's an incompetent loser who lied to advance his agenda and now he needs the help of the very people he ignored and insulted.

He has this coming. He can't be allowed to act like a bull in a china shop and then expect the world to clean up his mess.

I hope Chirac and Schroeder make Bush pay for his mistake. Bush is not fit to lead. He lied to us and he alienated our allies and now it's time to pay the price for his arrogance. Good.

 

[gsaldivar]

Originally posted by: BOBDN
He can't be allowed to act like a bull in a china shop and then expect the world to clean up his mess.

I hope Chirac and Schroeder make Bush pay for his mistake. Bush is not fit to lead. He lied to us and he alienated our allies and now it's time to pay the price for his arrogance. Good.

Yeah BOBDN - you're right.

We should have left well enough alone, let Iraq implode and have the rest of the world blame us for doing nothing to prevent a humanitarian disaster. Good thinking.

Even those nations that opposed us when we went to war with Iraq, were nearly unanimous in agreement with non-violent efforts toward a change in the Iraqi regime. Now, that the regime has been eliminated, those that supported this change would rather work through the UN instead of the US. In my opinion, this isn't an unreasonable request.

I think that the lack of unconditional UN involvement is a convenient cover for European countries to distance themselves from popular anti-American sentiment. When the US can provide a way to get international aid to Iraq, remain in strategic control, and allow Europe to save face - then I think we'll see some very positive things happen.

Despite what you may hear on the street - international disputes are not nearly as personal as you have been characterizing them, BOBDN. They are more like "gentleman's disagreements", where some back-and-forth is done, before a mutual understanding can happen. We don't expect the world to "clean up our mess" - what we do expect is for the leaders of other countries to share world leadership by following through on their international obligations, rather than just turning their heads because such efforts may threaten their next chance at reelection.

Sometimes the price of being the first to act, is enduring the criticism from those who were afraid to.

 

[BOBDN]

Originally posted by: gsaldivar

Originally posted by: BOBDN
He can't be allowed to act like a bull in a china shop and then expect the world to clean up his mess.

I hope Chirac and Schroeder make Bush pay for his mistake. Bush is not fit to lead. He lied to us and he alienated our allies and now it's time to pay the price for his arrogance. Good.

Yeah BOBDN - you're right.

We should have left well enough alone, let Iraq implode and have the rest of the world blame us for doing nothing to prevent a humanitarian disaster. Good thinking.

Even those nations that opposed us when we went to war with Iraq, were nearly unanimous in agreement with non-violent efforts toward a change in the Iraqi regime. Now, that the regime has been eliminated, those that supported this change would rather work through the UN instead of the US. In my opinion, this isn't an unreasonable request.

I think that the lack of unconditional UN involvement is a convenient cover for European countries to distance themselves from popular anti-American sentiment. When the US can provide a way to get international aid to Iraq, remain in strategic control, and allow Europe to save face - then I think we'll see some very positive things happen.

Despite what you may hear on the street - international disputes are not nearly as personal as you have been characterizing them, BOBDN. They are more like "gentleman's disagreements", where some back-and-forth is done, before a mutual understanding can happen. We don't expect the world to "clean up our mess" - what we do expect is for the leaders of other countries to share world leadership by following through on their international obligations, rather than just turning their heads because such efforts may threaten their next chance at reelection.

Sometimes the price of being the first to act, is enduring the criticism from those who were afraid to.

What I hear on the street?

Here's what I just heard on Buchanaan and Press. The US media is finally starting to do their job and pick up on this.

On MSNBC Buchanaan and Press are calling this a 180 degree turn in policy by the Bush administration and a major international embarrassment. The Bush administration has been saying all along they don't need any help and now it is painfully apparent they do. They are saying there will be MAJOR political fallout from this and Bush is going to pay.

Just the word from the street.

Oh, and Iraq was in no danger of imploding until Bush decided to invade based on his lies.

The sooner that idiot is out of Washington the better for America and the entire world.

 

[gsaldivar]

Originally posted by: BOBDN
The Bush administration has been saying all along they don't need any help and now it is painfully apparent they do. They are saying there will be MAJOR political fallout from this and Bush is going to pay.

Are you making this up as you go along BOBDN?

The Bush administration never said they "don't need any help."

It's true that for 12 years of diplomacy, we were unsuccessful in avoiding a veto in the UN security council of a resolution authorizing force against Iraq. That doesn't mean we didn't try our best to involve as much international cooperation as possible.

Even from the beginning, we have strived to involve as many other countries as possible in the effort to end Saddam's regime:

Afghanistan, Albania, Australia, Azerbaijan, Bulgaria, Colombia, Czech Republic, Denmark, El Salvador, Eritrea, Estonia, Ethiopia, Georgia, Hungary, Italy, Japan, Latvia, Lithuania, Macedonia, Netherlands, Nicaragua, the Philippines, Poland, Romania, Slovakia, South Korea, Spain, Turkey, the United Kingdom, Uzbekistan. The list includes countries which are providing troops, over-flight or basing rights, logistical support or assistance with reconstruction efforts.

That list doesn't even include an additional fifteen other Asian and Middle-eastern countries who wished to remain anonymous in order to avoid inflaming their own Muslim populations. Unnamed countries which may be on the expanded list of the coalition include:

Bahrain - has made facilities available to the US military, and is a member of the Gulf Cooperation Council (GCC) which agreed to help provide for the defence of Kuwait in the event of a new war with Iraq.
Oman - has made facilities available to the US military, and is a members of the GCC.
Qatar - U.S. Central Command mobile headquarters at Camp As Sayliyah. Al-Udeid air base opened for in-flight refuelling squadron, F-15 fighter wing and maintenance hangars, and is a member of the GCC.
Saudi Arabia - has made facilities available to the US military, and is a members of the GCC.
United Arab Emirates - has made facilities available to the US military, and is a members of the GCC.
Jordan - U.S. troops are stationed in Jordan near the Iraqi border manning anti-missile batteries in case Iraq fires missiles at Israel.
Belgium - Allowed movement of troops and materiel from U.S. bases in Germany to port of Antwerp en route to the Persian Gulf; will allow overflights.
Croatia - Allowing refuelling stops by U.S. transport aircraft.
Egypt - Keeping Suez Canal open to U.S. and allied warships en route to gulf.
Greece - U.S. naval base in Crete serves U.S. 6th Fleet and supports Navy and Air Force intelligence-gathering planes. Allowing use of airspace under NATO and bilateral defence agreements, but will not send troops.
Germany - Ruled out any participation, but pledges unhindered use of airspace and access to U.S. and British bases in Germany.
Cyprus - degree of support unknown.
Israel - the main US ally in the Middle East.

Link

 

[BOBDN]

Don't try to rewrite history now.

Bush and Co. said they'd go it alone and they did. Now as everyone is aware and as Powell and the Joint Cheifs tried to tell them from the beginning of this misbegotten adventure they realize they can't.

And it isn't just me saying it.

 

[gsaldivar]

Originally posted by: BOBDN
Don't try to rewrite history now.

Bush and Co. said they'd go it alone and they did. Now as everyone is aware and as Powell and the Joint Cheifs tried to tell them from the beginning of this misbegotten adventure they realize they can't.

And it isn't just me saying it.

The Bush administration never said they "don't need any help."

Do you have links to back up your assertion?