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France and Germany reject US Iraq plans

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alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
11,489
0
0
Originally posted by: BOBDN
Originally posted by: alchemize
What an interesting perspective BOBDN, et al have. They'd rather see the mission fail to disgrace a president they don't care for, at the cost of Iraqi and US lives, rather than shore up and supoprt the situation and bring democracy to Iraq. What's a few 100 more soliders, a few 1,000 more terrorist victims if Bush can be brought down!

But of course, they've supported the Iraqi people and the military all along right?

Why not just make contributions direct to Al Qaida BOBDN, et al? That way the situation will get even worse over there, and Bush will fall? In fact, why not just participate directly in terrorism, go over and shoot some soldiers and iraqis, that will help Bush fall even faster! Then you can come closer to that quagmire you so desire, and Bush will fall!

Your true colors are shining through, like a rainbow
:beer:
So alchemize your president rushes into invade Iraq without UN sanction, screws up the entire invasion, needs the UN to bail his dumbass out and you accuse me of wanting to disgrace him? Now that's an interesting perspective.

Bush is responsible for every death, US and Iraqi, that has and will happen. Not me. Not anyone who opposed this madness.

He disgraced himself and our nation.

He has made the single greatest contribution to Al Qaeda anyone could make. He has given them a rallying point in Iraq and he's taken the focus and the resources away from the real fight against terrorism

Don't you dare accuse me of helping Al Qaeda. If the Bush maniacs had listened to the millions of people around the world who opposed this invasion, the UN or his allies who opposed this invasion we wouldn't be in the mess we're in now.

Don't transfer Bush's mistakes to us. The problem is all Bush and the idiots who supported him.

You're aiding Al Qaeda. Not us. We tried to stop you. You wouldn't listen.
I Do dare accuse you. See if you can recognize the past for the past, and the future for the future. Here's an accounting term for you to think about...Sunk Costs. You put your petty hatred of our President above the lives of others. You're so blind you can't even see that. While some look to the future, all you can do is foam at the mouth and relish every political or terror bit of news that futhers the notion that "it's a quagmire".

 

DivideBYZero

Lifer
May 18, 2001
24,117
2
0
The US has a mess on it's hands and the only way to wash them is to load up the UN with partial responsibility, then lay blame in a few years time. All the time keeping the business administration, when they should hand that over too, as they have no rights to the businiesses that Rummie and his cronies have hijaked for their own gains.

Nice try, but I hope that the UN and 'Old Europe' are wise enough to prevent continued US control of Iraq in any form. It is not warranted.

The part that bothers most people in the modern world is this:

...the US plans do not cede any political or military control or set out any timeframe for when democratic elections might be held.

Iraq needs a plan. Iraq needs it's own country handed back to the people with a sensible framework for peace and prosperity. All the time the main cash rich businesses are US held, how can this occurr?

There is no reason in this world why ANY Iraqi business should be US run. Let the wholesale US led robbery of Iraqs riches end now. Having no timeframe for handing them back does not bode well and intimates that they may well never be fully returned to Iraqi control.

/rant off
 

Gaard

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2002
8,911
0
0
I agree. I also don't understand why. Has the administration offered any explanation why they won't relinquish any control? Are there any reasons other than "It's our mess, we should fix it" and "Why should we?" Is the decision not to relinquish any political or military control have anything to do with helping the Iraqis?
 

CaptnKirk

Lifer
Jul 25, 2002
10,053
0
71
The whole thing boils down to a cult of Egos that are not willing to let go of thier self-perceived power trip.
They will advance the New Century Neo-con mentality al all costs, reguardless of the effect on either Iraq
on the United States. It's obvious that they don't really care about the world in general, or world opinion on
anything. Self serving, back slapping, high-fiving, Frat Boys Gone Wild
 

TaylorD

Diamond Member
May 13, 2000
5,495
0
76
Originally posted by: Gaard
I agree. I also don't understand why. Has the administration offered any explanation why they won't relinquish any control? Are there any reasons other than "It's our mess, we should fix it" and "Why should we?" Is the decision not to relinquish any political or military control have anything to do with helping the Iraqis?
I think the reasoning is mostly that we have done all the hard work ourselves (ie military action and the first few months of "policing") and it just doesn't make sense to relinquish our control now. I don't necessarily agree with this reasoning at this level, but that's my take on why they believe they don't need to share too much control.

Its kind of like if you asked some friends if they would help you out with building a house, and they said no - but then once it was done being built, they wanted to help designing and with the final organization. Again, I don't think this type of thinking translates into the international scale of this situation. (Plus, its a pretty crappy analogy by itself)
 

BOBDN

Banned
May 21, 2002
2,579
0
0
Originally posted by: TaylorD
Originally posted by: Gaard
I agree. I also don't understand why. Has the administration offered any explanation why they won't relinquish any control? Are there any reasons other than "It's our mess, we should fix it" and "Why should we?" Is the decision not to relinquish any political or military control have anything to do with helping the Iraqis?
I think the reasoning is mostly that we have done all the hard work ourselves (ie military action and the first few months of "policing") and it just doesn't make sense to relinquish our control now. I don't necessarily agree with this reasoning at this level, but that's my take on why they believe they don't need to share too much control.

Its kind of like if you asked some friends if they would help you out with building a house, and they said no - but then once it was done being built, they wanted to help designing and with the final organization. Again, I don't think this type of thinking translates into the international scale of this situation. (Plus, its a pretty crappy analogy by itself)
This would be more like asking a couple friends to help you demolish your house and after they refuse telling why you shouldn't then you do it alone and end up asking them to help you rebuild under your supervision.

I wouldn't follow the Bush administration into Iraq after the mess they've made just as I wouldn't help that dumbass rebuild his house. They're both too stupid to deserve help. And helping them will guarantee they'll never learn their lesson.

Saying that I have to say this. Rebuilding Iraq is too important to let it fail. The entire Bush administration has finally realized the US can't do it alone. They need to do what they should have done in the first place, go to the UN and NATO and NEGOTIATE like adults instead of a bunch of arrogant teenagers who just drank their first beer.

The UN member nations and NATO, as I've said before, should demand regime change here in the US as the prerequisite for helping clean up the Bush administration's mess. Heads should roll for this.

And if the tables were turned you bet your *** the people who make up Bush and Co. would be demanding heads roll.
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
Originally posted by: alchemize
Originally posted by: BOBDN
Originally posted by: alchemize
What an interesting perspective BOBDN, et al have. They'd rather see the mission fail to disgrace a president they don't care for, at the cost of Iraqi and US lives, rather than shore up and supoprt the situation and bring democracy to Iraq. What's a few 100 more soliders, a few 1,000 more terrorist victims if Bush can be brought down!

But of course, they've supported the Iraqi people and the military all along right?

Why not just make contributions direct to Al Qaida BOBDN, et al? That way the situation will get even worse over there, and Bush will fall? In fact, why not just participate directly in terrorism, go over and shoot some soldiers and iraqis, that will help Bush fall even faster! Then you can come closer to that quagmire you so desire, and Bush will fall!

Your true colors are shining through, like a rainbow
:beer:
So alchemize your president rushes into invade Iraq without UN sanction, screws up the entire invasion, needs the UN to bail his dumbass out and you accuse me of wanting to disgrace him? Now that's an interesting perspective.

Bush is responsible for every death, US and Iraqi, that has and will happen. Not me. Not anyone who opposed this madness.

He disgraced himself and our nation.

He has made the single greatest contribution to Al Qaeda anyone could make. He has given them a rallying point in Iraq and he's taken the focus and the resources away from the real fight against terrorism

Don't you dare accuse me of helping Al Qaeda. If the Bush maniacs had listened to the millions of people around the world who opposed this invasion, the UN or his allies who opposed this invasion we wouldn't be in the mess we're in now.

Don't transfer Bush's mistakes to us. The problem is all Bush and the idiots who supported him.

You're aiding Al Qaeda. Not us. We tried to stop you. You wouldn't listen.
I Do dare accuse you. See if you can recognize the past for the past, and the future for the future. Here's an accounting term for you to think about...Sunk Costs. You put your petty hatred of our President above the lives of others. You're so blind you can't even see that. While some look to the future, all you can do is foam at the mouth and relish every political or terror bit of news that futhers the notion that "it's a quagmire".
Interesting that you highlight an "accounting" term. Here's another: accountability. Bush-lite and his minions need to account for the thousands of innocent lives and billions of dollars they squandered in their mad rush to invade Iraq.

And I second BOBDN's comment that you and the other Bush apologists and the pseudo-cons running amok in D.C. are aiding al Qaeda. I've said for ages that Bush is Osama's wet dream. His administration has done more to damage this country and more to inspire terrorism than bin Laden could ever have hoped for. As my good friend CkG used to say, "Bush is a Disaster."

In spite of all this, in spite of my absolute conviction that Bush must be held accountable for his crimes, I do want the rest of the world to bail us out of this Iraqi quagmire. Even if it helps let Bush off the hook, the only way we're going to defuse the situation in Iraq is to get the U.S. out of the dominant role. As long as we're calling the shots, Iraq will continue to produce a steady supply of dead Americans -- and Iraqis. It must stop.

But, as I said in my earlier post, I believe help is the last thing Bush wants. He wants to go it alone because he doesn't want to give up control. He doesn't want to share the spoils. The only thing he does want is a scapegoat he can blame. That's why he proposed a plan he knew would be unacceptable to other countries. They reject it; he blames them for his mess.

Accountability. You won't find any in the Bush administration.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,531
3
0
Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
Originally posted by: freegeeks
what does Bush expect ??? France and German must send troops while the americans call the shots.

I don't think so --

what does france expect. they want power to shape iraq when it was american blood and gold that liberated iraq. they want to roll in after with a little help and then claim innordinate power.
Was the war about the US having more power there than France or was it about ousting Saddam? We accomplished our goal of ridding the Middle East of that ruthless bastard, now it's time to do what's best for Iraq, the Middle East and the world as a whole (and I think that relinquishing control to the UN will be best for the US too)
 

freegeeks

Diamond Member
May 7, 2001
5,460
1
71
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
Originally posted by: freegeeks
what does Bush expect ??? France and German must send troops while the americans call the shots.

I don't think so --

what does france expect. they want power to shape iraq when it was american blood and gold that liberated iraq. they want to roll in after with a little help and then claim innordinate power.
Was the war about the US having more power there than France or was it about ousting Saddam? We accomplished our goal of ridding the Middle East of that ruthless bastard, now it's time to do what's best for Iraq, the Middle East and the world as a whole (and I think that relinquishing control to the UN will be best for the US too)
I don't see why France or any other European country should help the Bush admin. after everything that happened in the last year. Insulting us all the time doesn't make Bush very popular in European countries. Bush started this mess, now it's his responsibility to clean it up. He didn't want to listen 6 months ago and what you are seeing is the result of his arrogant "bring it on" - "if you're not with us, you're against us" cowboy macho politics.

 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,531
3
0
Originally posted by: freegeeks
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
Originally posted by: freegeeks
what does Bush expect ??? France and German must send troops while the americans call the shots.

I don't think so --

what does france expect. they want power to shape iraq when it was american blood and gold that liberated iraq. they want to roll in after with a little help and then claim innordinate power.
Was the war about the US having more power there than France or was it about ousting Saddam? We accomplished our goal of ridding the Middle East of that ruthless bastard, now it's time to do what's best for Iraq, the Middle East and the world as a whole (and I think that relinquishing control to the UN will be best for the US too)
I don't see why France or any other European country should help the Bush admin. after everything that happened in the last year. Insulting us all the time doesn't make Bush very popular in European countries. Bush started this mess, now it's his responsibility to clean it up. He didn't want to listen 6 months ago and what you are seeing is the result of his arrogant "bring it on" - "if you're not with us, you're against us" cowboy macho politics.
Just imagine if we told you guys 61 years ago to deal with Hitler on your own!
 

freegeeks

Diamond Member
May 7, 2001
5,460
1
71
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: freegeeks
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
Originally posted by: freegeeks
what does Bush expect ??? France and German must send troops while the americans call the shots.

I don't think so --

what does france expect. they want power to shape iraq when it was american blood and gold that liberated iraq. they want to roll in after with a little help and then claim innordinate power.
Was the war about the US having more power there than France or was it about ousting Saddam? We accomplished our goal of ridding the Middle East of that ruthless bastard, now it's time to do what's best for Iraq, the Middle East and the world as a whole (and I think that relinquishing control to the UN will be best for the US too)
I don't see why France or any other European country should help the Bush admin. after everything that happened in the last year. Insulting us all the time doesn't make Bush very popular in European countries. Bush started this mess, now it's his responsibility to clean it up. He didn't want to listen 6 months ago and what you are seeing is the result of his arrogant "bring it on" - "if you're not with us, you're against us" cowboy macho politics.
Just imagine if we told you guys 61 years ago to deal with Hitler on your own!
just imagine if the French told you to deal with the English 200+ years ago !!!!!!!!!!!!


btw Red Dawn, my response is just as silly as yours.

your argument is the same as the cheap labor conservatives in this forum ----> "stfu because we saved your ass in WW2"

 

Crimson

Banned
Oct 11, 1999
3,809
0
0
This thread is proof that the anti-war people were truly just anti-bush.. You guys don't give a crap about the Iraqi people.. You just want your democratic union-approved candidate elected.. thats all that matters to you people.

The Iraqi's had a chance to run their country, they f-ed it up.. and we're gonna clean up the mess, and give them a chance to have control back when we are good and damn well convinced they are gonna stop trying to kill us. The world would be a better place if we could do more of this type of thing.. Saddam being out of power is a good thing.. for me, for you, for france and germany.. the politics that go along with it are unfortunate..
 

0roo0roo

No Lifer
Sep 21, 2002
64,864
83
91

don't even pretend the french helped america 200 years ago out of charity. they did it to spite the british. all attempts at democracy in france had ended in failure, the royalists thought it would be amusing to see america try and fail as a bonus..cemeting their claim on power.
 

Gaard

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2002
8,911
0
0
<<This thread is proof that the anti-war people were truly just anti-bush.. >>

Yep, I'm convinced.

Go Britney!!
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
68,369
3,490
126
Originally posted by: Crimson
This thread is proof that the anti-war people were truly just anti-bush.. You guys don't give a crap about the Iraqi people.. You just want your democratic union-approved candidate elected.. thats all that matters to you people.

The Iraqi's had a chance to run their country, they f-ed it up.. and we're gonna clean up the mess, and give them a chance to have control back when we are good and damn well convinced they are gonna stop trying to kill us. The world would be a better place if we could do more of this type of thing.. Saddam being out of power is a good thing.. for me, for you, for france and germany.. the politics that go along with it are unfortunate..
Interesting POV. It seems they didn't try to kill "us" until "us" invaded the country. Now they definitely are trying to kill "us" and our succeeding almost daily.
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
Originally posted by: Crimson
This thread is proof that the anti-war people were truly just anti-bush.. You guys don't give a crap about the Iraqi people.. You just want your democratic union-approved candidate elected.. thats all that matters to you people.

The Iraqi's had a chance to run their country, they f-ed it up.. and we're gonna clean up the mess, and give them a chance to have control back when we are good and damn well convinced they are gonna stop trying to kill us. The world would be a better place if we could do more of this type of thing.. Saddam being out of power is a good thing.. for me, for you, for france and germany.. the politics that go along with it are unfortunate..
The invasion was never about the Iraqi people. That's just the latest sales pitch, offered after the other excuses began to unravel. Perhaps you remember them: WMDs, "thousands of liters," "mushroom cloud", UAVs prepared to attack us here at home, links to 9/11, imminent threat to the United States, etc., ad nauseum? Do you remember all of those lies? We do, which is why many of us opposed the invasion and continue to oppose Bush.

If you don't mind the President lying to you, well, to each his own. If you're OK with the Bush administration capitalizing on the 9/11 tragedy to advance its political agenda, then we'll just have to agree to disagree. If you don't mind wasting thousands of innocent lives and who knows how many hundred billion dollars on George W. Bush's war mongering, then frankly, I feel sorry for you.

Yes, some good things have come from the invasion, but those achievements are inseparably tainted with the lies that put us there. And we aren't out of the woods yet, not by a long shot.

 

freegeeks

Diamond Member
May 7, 2001
5,460
1
71
Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
don't even pretend the french helped america 200 years ago out of charity. they did it to spite the british. all attempts at democracy in france had ended in failure, the royalists thought it would be amusing to see america try and fail as a bonus..cemeting their claim on power.

where was the US in 1939-1940 when Hitler invaded Poland and Western-Europe???

If I remember correctly the US needed some encouragement in the form of Japanese bombs and torpedoes to enter the war

like I said before, using the "we saved your ass in WW2" over and over again is just as ridiculous as using the "French helped you in your independance war".
 

B00ne

Platinum Member
May 21, 2001
2,168
1
0
Originally posted by: gsaldivar
Originally posted by: BOBDN
From the BBC

Stand firm chaps! Let Bush sink before helping in Iraq.

If Chirac and Schroeder give in to Bush he'll never learn his lesson. This being the first time in Bush's life he's had to take responsibility for anything he's done it's important to make him take learn there are consequences to his actions.

France and Germany reject US Iraq plans
LOL


Real big of you.

Let's screw the Iraqis to teach Bush a lesson.

So I guess a UN presence in Iraq isn't quite as important as you hippie peaceniks first claimed?

ahem, ahem - let's not forget who really screwed the Iraqis
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: B00ne
Originally posted by: gsaldivar
Originally posted by: BOBDN
From the BBC

Stand firm chaps! Let Bush sink before helping in Iraq.

If Chirac and Schroeder give in to Bush he'll never learn his lesson. This being the first time in Bush's life he's had to take responsibility for anything he's done it's important to make him take learn there are consequences to his actions.

France and Germany reject US Iraq plans
LOL


Real big of you.

Let's screw the Iraqis to teach Bush a lesson.

So I guess a UN presence in Iraq isn't quite as important as you hippie peaceniks first claimed?

ahem, ahem - let's not forget who really screwed the Iraqis
Right - lets not forget Saddam screwed the Iraqis for years by not holding up his end of the cease fire agreement and subsequent Resolutions.

CkG
 

phillyTIM

Golden Member
Jan 12, 2001
1,940
10
81
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Originally posted by: B00ne
[ahem, ahem - let's not forget who really screwed the Iraqis
Right - lets not forget Saddam screwed the Iraqis for years by not holding up his end of the cease fire agreement and subsequent Resolutions.

CkG
Lets not forget that Bush I prompted the UN resolutions of sanctions against the people of Iraq in order to smoke just 1 person out...Saddam Hussein.

Letting a whole civilization suffer in order to try to punish one man. That's what the US/UN has done the past 12 years; and that's sadly fanatical.
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: phillyTIM
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Originally posted by: B00ne
[ahem, ahem - let's not forget who really screwed the Iraqis
Right - lets not forget Saddam screwed the Iraqis for years by not holding up his end of the cease fire agreement and subsequent Resolutions.

CkG
Lets not forget that Bush I prompted the UN resolutions of sanctions against the people of Iraq in order to smoke just 1 person out...Saddam Hussein.

Letting a whole civilization suffer in order to try to punish one man. That's what the US/UN has done the past 12 years; and that's sadly fanatical.
I guess Saddam should have been more thoughtful then. He could have stopped it. He agreed to the terms. I wonder why he didn't follow through.

CkG
 

phillyTIM

Golden Member
Jan 12, 2001
1,940
10
81
Do you think Bush would bow to that pressure should he be in the same spot? Of course not, they are leaders and will stand up to aggression.

There is/was no reason those sanctions should have happened as a result of the 1991 skirmish. There was absolutely no reason the US/UN should have gotten involved in the Iraqi annexation of Kuwait. Simple food chain math there--been done before by other countries and will be done again sometime.

The reasoning is clear now: It's the black, oil-hungry monster called Bush (his whole family and cohorts) that caused this whole mess that ultimately is draining our economy and getting our military killed.

Bush himself turned our friend Saddam into an enemy in 1991, he was never ever a threat to America.
 

tosberg34

Junior Member
Sep 8, 2003
7
0
0
2nd rate countries like France and Germany can kiss our collective American #@ss! Even if France jumped on board, the first thing they would do is surrender to Iraq. Germany, on the other hand, is so concerned with distancing itself from it's own depraved and horrific past that it wouldn't defend a little old lady getting beat up by a bunch of Nazi skinheads. France didn't want to help in the first place because it has been in bed with the Hussein regime for decades and Germany is nothing more than a another breeding ground for terrorists. They are strange bedfellows indeed. If the Americans hadn't bailed France out in WWII they would be a part of Greater Germany right now. But i can bet 1 million dollars that if they ever get in trouble who is the first country they will call: That's right, the USA.
 

tosberg34

Junior Member
Sep 8, 2003
7
0
0
Hitler, Mussolini, and the Japanese Empire were never a threat to America either, right? Seems to me that guys like you let these same people get a free pass back in the 20's, 30's and 40's until all hell broke loose. We've been trying diplomacy with Saddam for how many years now? 12? How many more times can you stand to get slapped in the face? The UN is nothing but a farce anyways. All it is is a bunch of countries getting together to do absolutely nothing except disagree with the US. If the US tried to push a plan declaring the Earth was round, all the other countries of the UN (with France and Germany leading the charge) would reject it. You guys couldn't see trouble if it fell out of the sky, sat on your face and wiggled. And this whole oil thing is udderly ridiculous. Is that the only soapbox you can stand on? Give me a break. Yeah, Bush sat in his office one day and said, "Gee, my family really needs oil. Let's start a war!" Drop your dope and get into the real world.
 

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