Framing the Dems - How conservatives control political debate and how progressives can take it back

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
Several interesting things in this article. It discusses the right's great success with implanting their perspectives and values into people's conscious. For instance, it addresses why the right has been so successful in selling the notion that taxes are bad and punitivie -- and why this is backwards. It also contains an interesting analysis of the foundational values of the right and the left.

I'm sure some YABAs will immediately attack the source (The American Prospect) and avoid the content. I suggest ignoring them. It is a thought-provoking read.

Framing the Dems
How conservatives control political debate and how progressives can take it back

By George Lakoff
Issue Date: 9.1.03

On the day that George W. Bush took office, the words "tax relief" started appearing in White House communiqués. Think for a minute about the word relief. In order for there to be relief, there has to be a blameless, afflicted person with whom we identify and whose affliction has been imposed by some external cause. Relief is the taking away of the pain or harm, thanks to some reliever.

This is an example of what cognitive linguists call a "frame." It is a mental structure that we use in thinking. All words are defined relative to frames. The relief frame is an instance of a more general rescue scenario in which there is a hero (the reliever), a victim (the afflicted), a crime (the affliction), a villain (the cause of affliction) and a rescue (the relief). The hero is inherently good, the villain is evil and the victim after the rescue owes gratitude to the hero.

The term tax relief evokes all of this and more. It presupposes a conceptual metaphor: Taxes are an affliction, proponents of taxes are the causes of affliction (the villains), the taxpayer is the afflicted (the victim) and the proponents of tax relief are the heroes who deserve the taxpayers' gratitude. Those who oppose tax relief are bad guys who want to keep relief from the victim of the affliction, the taxpayer.

Every time the phrase tax relief is used, and heard or read by millions of people, this view of taxation as an affliction and conservatives as heroes gets reinforced.

The phrase has become so ubiquitous that I've even found it in speeches and press releases by Democratic officials -- unconsciously reinforcing a view of the economy that is anathema to everything progressives believe. The Republicans understand framing; Democrats don't.


When I teach framing in Cognitive Science 101, I start with an exercise. I give my students a directive: "Don't think of an elephant." It can't be done, of course, and that's the point. In order not to think of an elephant, you have to think of an elephant. The word elephant evokes an image and a frame. If you negate the frame, you still activate the frame. Richard Nixon never took Cognitive Science 101. When he said, "I am not a crook," he made everybody think of him as a crook.

If you have been framed, the only response is to reframe. But you can't do it in a sound bite unless an appropriate progressive language has been built up in advance. Conservatives have worked for decades and spent billions on their think tanks to establish their frames, create the right language, and get the language and the frames they evoke accepted. It has taken them awhile to establish the metaphors of taxation as a burden, an affliction and an unfair punishment -- all of which require "relief." They have also, over decades, built up the frame in which the wealthy create jobs, and giving them more wealth creates more jobs.

Taxes look very different when framed from a progressive point of view. As Oliver Wendell Holmes famously said, taxes are the price of civilization. They are what you pay to live in America -- your dues -- to have democracy, opportunity and access to all the infrastructure that previous taxpayers have built up and made available to you: highways, the Internet, weather reports, parks, the stock market, scientific research, Social Security, rural electrification, communications satellites, and on and on. If you belong to America, you pay a membership fee and you get all that infrastructure plus government services: flood control, air-traffic control, the Food and Drug Administration, the Centers for Disease Control and so on.

Interestingly, the wealthy benefit disproportionately from the American infrastructure. The Securities and Exchange Commission creates honest stock markets. Most of the judicial system is used for corporate law. Drugs developed with National Institutes of Health funding can be patented for private profit. Chemical companies hire scientists trained under National Science Foundation grants. Airlines hire pilots trained by the Air Force. The beef industry grazes its cattle cheaply on public lands. The more wealth you accumulate using what the dues payers have provided, the greater the debt you owe to those who have made your wealth possible. That is the logic of progressive taxation.

No entrepreneur makes it on his own in America. The American infrastructure makes entrepreneurship possible, and others have put it in place. If you've made a bundle, you owe a bundle. The least painful way to repay your debt to the nation is posthumously, through the inheritance tax.

Those who don't pay their dues are turning their backs on our country. American corporations registering abroad to avoid taxes are deserting our nation when their estimated $70 billion in dues and service payments are badly needed, for schools and for rescuing our state and local governments.


Reframing takes awhile, but it won't happen if we don't start. The place to begin is by understanding how progressives and conservatives think. In 1994, I dutifully read the "Contract with America" and found myself unable to comprehend how conservative views formed a coherent set of political positions. What, I asked myself, did opposition to abortion have to do with the flat tax? What did the flat tax have to do with opposition to environmental regulations? What did defense of gun ownership have to do with tort reform? Or tort reform with opposition to affirmative action? And what did all of the above have to do with family values? Moreover, why do conservatives and progressives talk past one another, not with one another?

The answer is that there are distinct conservative and progressive worldviews. The two groups simply see the world in different ways. As a cognitive scientist, I've found in my research that these political worldviews can be understood as opposing models of an ideal family -- a strict father family and a nurturant parent family. These family models come with moral systems, which in turn provide the deep framing of all political issues.


The Strict Father Family

In this view, the world is a dangerous and difficult place, there is tangible evil in the world and children have to be made good. To stand up to evil, one must be morally strong -- disciplined.

The father's job is to protect and support the family. His moral duty is to teach his children right from wrong. Physical discipline in childhood will develop the internal discipline adults need to be moral people and to succeed. The child's duty is to obey. Punishment is required to balance the moral books. If you do wrong, there must be a consequence.

The strict father, as moral authority, is responsible for controlling the women of the family, especially in matters of sexuality and reproduction.

Children are to become self-reliant through discipline and the pursuit of self-interest. Pursuit of self-interest is moral: If everybody pursues his own self-interest, the self-interest of all will be maximized.

Without competition, people would not have to develop discipline and so would not become moral beings. Worldly success is an indicator of sufficient moral strength; lack of success suggests lack of sufficient discipline. Those who are not successful should not be coddled; they should be forced to acquire self-discipline.

When this view is translated into politics, the government becomes the strict father whose job for the country is to support (maximize overall wealth) and protect (maximize military and political strength). The citizens are children of two kinds: the mature, disciplined, self-reliant ones who should not be meddled with and the whining, undisciplined, dependent ones who should never be coddled.

This means (among other things) favoring those who control corporate wealth and power (those seen as the best people) over those who are victims (those seen as morally weak). It means removing government regulations, which get in the way of those who are disciplined. Nature is seen as a resource to be exploited. One-way communication translates into government secrecy. The highest moral value is to preserve and extend the domain of strict morality itself, which translates into bringing the values of strict father morality into every aspect of life, both public and private, domestic and foreign.

America is seen as more moral than other nations and hence more deserving of power; it has earned the right to be hegemonic and must never yield its sovereignty, or its overwhelming military and economic power. The role of government, then, is to protect the country and its interests, to promote maximally unimpeded economic activity, and maintain order and discipline.

From this perspective, conservative policies cohere and make sense as instances of strict father morality. Social programs give people things they haven't earned, promoting dependency and lack of discipline, and are therefore immoral. The good people -- those who have become self-reliant through discipline and pursuit of self-interest -- deserve their wealth as a reward. Rewarding people who are doing the right thing is moral. Taxing them is punishment, an affliction, and is therefore immoral. Girls who get pregnant through illicit sex must face the consequences of their actions and bear the child. They become responsible for the child, and social programs for pre- and postnatal care just make them dependent. Guns are how the strict father protects his family from the dangers in the world. Environmental regulations get in the way of the good people, the disciplined ones pursuing their own self-interest. Nature, being lower on the moral hierarchy, is there to serve man as a resource. The Endangered Species Act gets in the way of people fulfilling their interests and is therefore immoral; people making money are more important than owls surviving as a species. And just as a strict father would never give up his authority, so a strong moral nation such as the United States should never give up its sovereignty to lesser authorities. It's a neatly tied-up package.

Conservative think tanks have done their job, working out such details and articulating them effectively. Many liberals are still largely unaware of their own moral system. Yet progressives have one.


The Nurturant Parent Family

It is assumed that the world should be a nurturant place. The job of parents is to nurture their children and raise their children to be nurturers. To be a nurturer you have to be empathetic and responsible (for yourself and others). Empathy and responsibility have many implications: Responsibility implies protection, competence, education, hard work and social connectedness; empathy requires freedom, fairness and honesty, two-way communication, a fulfilled life (unhappy, unfulfilled people are less likely to want others to be happy) and restitution rather than retribution to balance the moral books. Social responsibility requires cooperation and community building over competition. In the place of specific strict rules, there is a general "ethics of care" that says, "Help, don't harm." To be of good character is to be empathetic and responsible, in all of the above ways. Empathy and responsibility are the central values, implying other values: freedom, protection, fairness, cooperation, open communication, competence, happiness, mutual respect and restitution as opposed to retribution.

In this view, the job of government is to care for, serve and protect the population (especially those who are helpless), to guarantee democracy (the equal sharing of political power), to promote the well-being of all and to ensure fairness for all. The economy should be a means to these moral ends. There should be openness in government. Nature is seen as a source of nurture to be respected and preserved. Empathy and responsibility are to be promoted in every area of life, public and private. Art and education are parts of self-fulfillment and therefore moral necessities.

Progressive policies grow from progressive morality. Unfortunately, much of Democratic policy making has been issue by issue and program oriented, and thus doesn't show an overall picture with a moral vision. But, intuitively, progressive policy making is organized into five implicit categories that define both a progressive culture and a progressive form of government, and encompass all progressive policies. Those categories are:

Safety. Post-September 11, it includes secure harbors, industrial facilities and cities. It also includes safe neighborhoods (community policing) and schools (gun control); safe water, air and food (a poison-free environment); safety on the job; and products safe to use. Safety implies health -- health care for all, pre- and postnatal care for children, a focus on wellness and preventive care, and care for the elderly (Medicare, Social Security and so on).

Freedom. Civil liberties must be both protected and extended. The individual issues include gay rights, affirmative action, women's rights and so on, but the moral issue is freedom. That includes freedom of motherhood -- the freedom of a woman to decide whether, when and with whom. It excludes state control of pregnancy. For there to be freedom, the media must be open to all. The airwaves must be kept public, and media monopolies (Murdoch, Clear Channel) broken up.

A Moral Economy. Prosperity is for everybody. Government makes investments, and those investments should reflect the overall public good. Corporate reform is necessary for a more ethical business environment. That means honest bookkeeping (e.g., no free environmental dumping), no poisoning of people and the environment and no exploitation of labor (living wages, safe workplaces, no intimidation). Corporations are chartered by and accountable to the public. Instead of maximizing only shareholder profits, corporations should be chartered to maximize stakeholder well-being, where shareholders, employees, communities and the environment are all recognized and represented on corporate boards.

The bottom quarter of our workforce does absolutely essential work for the economy (caring for children, cleaning houses, producing agriculture, cooking, day laboring and so on). Its members have earned the right to living wages and health care. But the economy is so structured that they cannot be fairly compensated all the time by those who pay their salaries. The economy as a whole should decently compensate those who hold it up. Bill Clinton captured this idea when he declared that people who work hard and play by the rules shouldn't be poor. That validated an ethic of work, but also of community and nurturance.

Global Cooperation. The United States should function as a good world citizen, maximizing cooperation with other governments, not just seeking to maximize its wealth and military power. That means recognizing the same moral values internationally as domestically. An ethical foreign policy means the inclusion of issues previously left out: women's rights and education, children's rights, labor issues, poverty and hunger, the global environment and global health. Many of these concerns are now addressed through global civil society -- international organizations dedicated to peacekeeping and nation building. As the Iraq debacle shows, this worldview is not naive; it is a more effective brand of realism.

The Future. Progressive values center on our children's future -- their education, their health, their prosperity, the environment they will inherit and the global situation they will find themselves in. That is the moral perspective. The issues include everything from education (teacher salaries, class size, diversity) to the federal deficit (will they be burdened with our debt?) to global warming and the extinction of species (will there still be elephants and bananas?) to health (will their bodies be poisoned as a result of our policies, and will there be health care for them?). Securing that future is central to our values.

These are the central themes of a progressive politics that comes out of progressive values. That is an important point. A progressive vision must cut across the usual program and interest-group categories. What we need are strategic initiatives that change many things at once. For example, the New Apollo Program -- an investment of hundreds of billions over 10 years in alternative energy development (solar, wind, biomass, hydrogen) is also a jobs program, a foreign-policy issue (freedom from dependence on Middle East oil), a health issue (clean air and water, many fewer poisons in our bodies) and an ecology issue (cleans up pollution, addresses global warming). Corporate reform is another such strategic initiative.


Promoting a Progressive Frame

To articulate these themes and strategic initiatives, using government as an instrument of common purpose, we have to set aside petty local interests, work together and emphasize what unites us. Defeating radical conservatism gives us a negative impetus, but we will not succeed without a positive vision and cooperation.

An unfortunate aspect of recent progressive politics is the focus on coalitions rather than on movements. Coalitions are based on common self-interest. They are often necessary but they are usually short term, come apart readily and are hard to maintain. Labor-environment coalitions, for example, have been less than successful. And electoral coalitions with different interest-based messages for different voting blocks have left the Democrats without a general moral vision. Movements, on the other hand, are based on shared values, values that define who we are. They have a better chance of being broad-based and lasting. In short, progressives need to be thinking in terms of a broad-based progressive-values movement, not in terms of issue coalitions.

It is also time to stop thinking in terms of market segments. An awful lot of voters vote Democratic because of who they are, because they have progressive values of one kind or another -- not just because they are union members or soccer moms. Voters vote their identities and their values far more than their self-interests.

People are complicated. They are not all 100 percent conservative or progressive. Everyone in this society has both the strict and nurturant models, either actively or passively -- actively if they live by those values, passively if they can understand a story, movie or TV show based on those values. Most voters have a politics defined almost exclusively by one active moral worldview.

There are certain numbers of liberals and conservatives, of course, who are just not going to be swayed. The exact numbers are subject to debate, but from talking informally to professionals and making my own best guesses, I estimate that roughly 35 percent to 39 percent of voters overwhelmingly favor the progressive-Democratic moral worldview while another 35 percent to 38 percent of voters overwhelmingly favor the conservative-Republican moral worldview.

The swing voters -- roughly 25 percent to 30 percent -- have both worldviews and use them actively in different parts of their lives. They may be strict in the office and nurturant at home. Many blue-collar workers are strict at home and nurturant in their union politics. I have academic colleagues who are strict in the classroom and nurturant in their politics.

Activation of the progressive model among swing voters is done through language -- by using a consistent, conventional language of progressive values. Democrats have been subject to a major fallacy: Voters are lined up left to right according to their views on issues, the thinking goes, and Democrats can get more voters by moving to the right. But the Republicans have not been getting more voters by moving to the left. What they do is stick to their strict ideology and activate their model among swing voters who have both models. They do this by being clear and issuing consistent messages framed in terms of conservative values. The moral is this: Voters are not on a left-to-right line; there is no middle.

Here is a cognitive scientist's advice to progressive Democrats: Articulate your ideals, frame what you believe effectively, say what you believe and say it well, strongly and with moral fervor.

Reframing is telling the truth as we see it -- telling it forcefully, straightforwardly and articulately, with moral conviction and without hesitation. The language must fit the conceptual reframing, a reframing from the perspective of progressive values. It is not just a matter of words, though the right ones are needed to evoke progressive frames.

And stop saying "tax relief."
Enjoy.
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
This piece only reaffirms my positions as a conservative:)

And no, calling yourselves "progressives" instead of "liberals" isn't going to magically make your policies and ideals bearable for this nation:p
Usage of "Progressive" ~31 times
Usage of "liberal" 2 times
Can you tell me with a honest straight face that this piece isn't about trying to shed the "liberal" label by "framing" yourself as "progressive"?

CkG
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
This piece only reaffirms my positions as a conservative:)

And no, calling yourselves "progressives" instead of "liberals" isn't going to magically make your policies and ideals bearable for this nation:p
Usage of "Progressive" ~31 times
Usage of "liberal" 2 times
Can you tell me with a honest straight face that this piece isn't about trying to shed the "liberal" label by "framing" yourself as "progressive"?

CkG
I'm not framing myself as anything. I merely posted an article that I found interesting and thought-provoking. Further, I think the label you apply is an irrelevant attempt to change the subject. The focus of the article is shifting the public's frame of reference away from the very self-serving, hostile viewpoint pushed by the right. It's the base concepts that are important, not the label you use to mask and distort those concepts.
 

Jmman

Diamond Member
Dec 17, 1999
5,302
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I don't think conservatives or anyone else is against paying taxes, but the crucial question is how much. The Democrats would have us pay all our income in taxes if they could get away with it. And some elements of that document are downright scary.......the role of government is to take care of people?? I guess I missed that in the Constitution.....:)
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
This piece only reaffirms my positions as a conservative:)

And no, calling yourselves "progressives" instead of "liberals" isn't going to magically make your policies and ideals bearable for this nation:p
Usage of "Progressive" ~31 times
Usage of "liberal" 2 times
Can you tell me with a honest straight face that this piece isn't about trying to shed the "liberal" label by "framing" yourself as "progressive"?

CkG
I'm not framing myself as anything. I merely posted an article that I found interesting and thought-provoking. Further, I think the label you apply is an irrelevant attempt to change the subject. The focus of the article is shifting the public's frame of reference away from the very self-serving, hostile viewpoint pushed by the right. It's the base concepts that are important, not the label you use to mask and distort those concepts.

I'm sorry you didn't understand that I didn't mean YOU as in Bowfinger per se, it was liberals in general...you know - a generic use of the term. I tend(try) to quote people directly or type their name if I mean them specifically.;)
But I think you(bowfinger) need to reread the article, the article was itself a "frame" to teach you how to "frame":) The word "Liberal" has taken on a somewhat "dirty" name(and rightfully so;)) and this piece is showing liberals how to frame themselves as "progressives". The reason he only uses the word "liberal" twice and "progressive" 30+ times is to try to harmonize the words so people come out saying "progressive" after they read the whole piece. Do you think he wasn't smart enough to carefully craft this piece using the same techniques he is trying to teach? The underlying issues he presents is somewhat like what the conservatives tried with "compassionate Conservatism". It's just a warm fuzzy coating wrapped around the same principles and ideals they've held for years, this candy coated "progressive" veneer is no different.

It's a well thought out and written piece - it's just wrong on some of the content;)

CkG
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
I'm sorry you didn't understand that I didn't mean YOU as in Bowfinger per se, it was liberals in general...you know - a generic use of the term. I tend(try) to quote people directly or type their name if I mean them specifically.;)
But I think you(bowfinger) need to reread the article, the article was itself a "frame" to teach you how to "frame":) The word "Liberal" has taken on a somewhat "dirty" name(and rightfully so;)) and this piece is showing liberals how to frame themselves as "progressives". The reason he only uses the word "liberal" twice and "progressive" 30+ times is to try to harmonize the words so people come out saying "progressive" after they read the whole piece. Do you think he wasn't smart enough to carefully craft this piece using the same techniques he is trying to teach? The underlying issues he presents is somewhat like what the conservatives tried with "compassionate Conservatism". It's just a warm fuzzy coating wrapped around the same principles and ideals they've held for years, this candy coated "progressive" veneer is no different.
One, of course the article is a "frame", as is any article written to persuade a particular point of view. I'm not sure how that is relevant to anything.

Two, re. "liberal" vs. "progressive", what's the difference? I mean that literally: what differentiates a Liberal from a Progressive? I am not an ideology connoisseur. Please explain.

If they are the same, is it wrong to use the label Progressive? As I've said before, I think both "Conservative" and "Liberal" have become so twisted that neither means what it used to mean, nor does either offer useful information about the person or policy being labeled. (Witness "neo-conservative" which shares few of the values of traditional conservatism. "Neo-fascist" would be much more accurate.) Maybe it's time to establish new labels with well-defined foundations of specific principles and priorities.

Finally, and most importantly, the content of the article is the important part, not the definitions of political labels. While the author may encourage the use of "Progressive" instead of "Liberal", this is not the focus of the article.


It's a well thought out and written piece - it's just wrong on some of the content;)

CkG
Please explain which content you feel is wrong and why. It's tough to have a discussion when you don't offer any insight into your position.
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
I'm sorry you didn't understand that I didn't mean YOU as in Bowfinger per se, it was liberals in general...you know - a generic use of the term. I tend(try) to quote people directly or type their name if I mean them specifically.;)
But I think you(bowfinger) need to reread the article, the article was itself a "frame" to teach you how to "frame":) The word "Liberal" has taken on a somewhat "dirty" name(and rightfully so;)) and this piece is showing liberals how to frame themselves as "progressives". The reason he only uses the word "liberal" twice and "progressive" 30+ times is to try to harmonize the words so people come out saying "progressive" after they read the whole piece. Do you think he wasn't smart enough to carefully craft this piece using the same techniques he is trying to teach? The underlying issues he presents is somewhat like what the conservatives tried with "compassionate Conservatism". It's just a warm fuzzy coating wrapped around the same principles and ideals they've held for years, this candy coated "progressive" veneer is no different.
One, of course the article is a "frame", as is any article written to persuade a particular point of view. I'm not sure how that is relevant to anything.

Two, re. "liberal" vs. "progressive", what's the difference? I mean that literally: what differentiates a Liberal from a Progressive? I am not an ideology connoisseur. Please explain.

If they are the same, is it wrong to use the label Progressive? As I've said before, I think both "Conservative" and "Liberal" have become so twisted that neither means what it used to mean, nor does either offer useful information about the person or policy being labeled. (Witness "neo-conservative" which shares few of the values of traditional conservatism. "Neo-fascist" would be much more accurate.) Maybe it's time to establish new labels with well-defined foundations of specific principles and priorities.

Finally, and most importantly, the content of the article is the important part, not the definitions of political labels. While the author may encourage the use of "Progressive" instead of "Liberal", this is not the focus of the article.


It's a well thought out and written piece - it's just wrong on some of the content;)

CkG
Please explain which content you feel is wrong and why. It's tough to have a discussion when you don't offer any insight into your position.

Bow...Bow...Bow... *shakes head* Always in pursuit of the "yeah, but..."

First off, My statement about the "framing" the article uses to teach "framing" was just that - a statement. "Framing" is an effective tool when used properly and can be even more effective when it goes unnoticed by the reader. My pointing it out was only to put things in perspective and allow people to read the article while fully aware of it's intent to "frame" their view.

I don't think I said that there was a difference between "liberal" and "progressive", but as I stated - "liberal" has somewhat taken on a "dirty word" image just as "Conservative" has. IMO- "Compassionate Conservative" was born to try to remedy the image of Conservatives and this "progressive" push was concocted with the same intent. Looking at the content of the piece I don't see anything different from some of the underlying issues that seem to define "liberalism" so again, my position is that "progressive" is only a new warm and fuzzy label and view of the same ideals and issues.

In regards to your "final" point - I happen to think that it WAS a good portion of the piece's intent. That's why I pointed the numbers out like I stated above. I didn't expect you(bowfinger;)) to think that it was the articles intent because as you've shown - you think it is mostly a trivial point...which IMO is why I think it was a well written piece. He used "framing" to push "framing":p You don't see the irony in that? "Framing" is a form of subtle persuasion via the presentation, and so for him to teach it, he used it so people could see it in action - I guess some missed it.

Now as to the content - It's pretty obvious. I'm a Conservative and think the honey soaked ideals he was dispensing are wrong since they are just the same old warmed over liberal views. We've(all) discussed these issues before on this forum and if I would have picked one to thoroughly destroy;):D you would have been all over me for not seeing the "whole thing" or what not, so I looked at the overall theme. I also thought I shouldn't waste my time picking apart each issue he brought up and showed how to sugar coat because, again, I realized the intent of his piece wasn't necessarily about the issues - it was about the "framing"(presentation) of the issues.

Maybe one of the liberal folks on here can help you since I don't seem to be getting my point across to you; either that or there is just an unwillingness to admit and accept it. Meh - I don't care, I find this whole thing quite interesting and somewhat entertaining.:)

CkG
 

BOBDN

Banned
May 21, 2002
2,579
0
0
Originally posted by: Jmman The Democrats would have us pay all our income in taxes if they could get away with it.

That would explain the growth in spending, growth of government and record deficits during Republic administrations over the past 23 years.
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: BOBDN
Originally posted by: Jmman The Democrats would have us pay all our income in taxes if they could get away with it.

That would explain the growth in spending, growth of government and record deficits during Republic administrations over the past 23 years.

As opposed to the Democrats championing reductions in spending
rolleye.gif
You aren't for less spending - you are only against Republican spending.

I think alot can be learned from this article if one really tries to read and understand it.:)

CkG
 

SViscusi

Golden Member
Apr 12, 2000
1,200
8
81
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Originally posted by: BOBDN
Originally posted by: Jmman The Democrats would have us pay all our income in taxes if they could get away with it.

That would explain the growth in spending, growth of government and record deficits during Republic administrations over the past 23 years.

As opposed to the Democrats championing reductions in spending
rolleye.gif
You aren't for less spending - you are only against Republican spending.

I think alot can be learned from this article if one really tries to read and understand it.:)

CkG

Democrats don't campaign on smaller goverment, Republicans do.
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: SViscusi
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Originally posted by: BOBDN
Originally posted by: Jmman The Democrats would have us pay all our income in taxes if they could get away with it.

That would explain the growth in spending, growth of government and record deficits during Republic administrations over the past 23 years.

As opposed to the Democrats championing reductions in spending
rolleye.gif
You aren't for less spending - you are only against Republican spending.

I think alot can be learned from this article if one really tries to read and understand it.:)

CkG

Democrats don't campaign on smaller goverment, Republicans do.

So they are bashing more spending when Republicans do it? Isn't that a tad hypocritical? Sure the Republicans are supposedly for less gov't and for them to increase gov't entitlement programs is wrong - I fully admit that and hate the fact that they are even entertaining such an idea. So don't give me the story about Republicans growing gov't when that is what Democrats want to do at an ever increasing rate.

I think the article hits on this a tad - they(liberals) know that people know they want more gov't - so they need to sugar coat things so people don't realize what is happening until it is already swallowed.

CkG
 

SViscusi

Golden Member
Apr 12, 2000
1,200
8
81
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Originally posted by: SViscusi
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Originally posted by: BOBDN
Originally posted by: Jmman The Democrats would have us pay all our income in taxes if they could get away with it.

That would explain the growth in spending, growth of government and record deficits during Republic administrations over the past 23 years.

As opposed to the Democrats championing reductions in spending
rolleye.gif
You aren't for less spending - you are only against Republican spending.

I think alot can be learned from this article if one really tries to read and understand it.:)

CkG

Democrats don't campaign on smaller goverment, Republicans do.

So they are bashing more spending when Republicans do it? Isn't that a tad hypocritical?
No they're bashing republicans for claiming to be against spending when it's convienent, but when it comes to funding the Strom Thurmand parking garage, or whatever other program, they can't cast their vote fast enough.

So don't give me the story about Republicans growing gov't when that is what Democrats want to do at an ever increasing rate.
So just because the democrats want to spend more, it gives the republicans a free pass for their spending?

I think the article hits on this a tad - they(liberals) know that people know they want more gov't - so they need to sugar coat things so people don't realize what is happening until it is already swallowed.
Actually I think people want a bigger goverment, they just don't want to pay for it.
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: SViscusi
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Originally posted by: SViscusi
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Originally posted by: BOBDN
Originally posted by: Jmman The Democrats would have us pay all our income in taxes if they could get away with it.

That would explain the growth in spending, growth of government and record deficits during Republic administrations over the past 23 years.

As opposed to the Democrats championing reductions in spending
rolleye.gif
You aren't for less spending - you are only against Republican spending.

I think alot can be learned from this article if one really tries to read and understand it.:)

CkG

Democrats don't campaign on smaller goverment, Republicans do.

So they are bashing more spending when Republicans do it? Isn't that a tad hypocritical?
No they're bashing republicans for claiming to be against spending when it's convienent, but when it comes to funding the Strom Thurmand parking garage, or whatever other program, they can't cast their vote fast enough.

So don't give me the story about Republicans growing gov't when that is what Democrats want to do at an ever increasing rate.
So just because the democrats want to spend more, it gives the republicans a free pass for their spending?

I think the article hits on this a tad - they(liberals) know that people know they want more gov't - so they need to sugar coat things so people don't realize what is happening until it is already swallowed.
Actually I think people want a bigger goverment, they just don't want to pay for it.

No, actually I don't think most people want more gov't.
Did I not say that the Rs weren't doing what they say?
I have consistantly opined that ALL gov't spending needs to be reduced and gone through with a fine toothed comb.

The article doesn't really address the overspending though, it just talks about "fees" or "dues"
rolleye.gif
for being an American.

CkG
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
I'm sorry you didn't understand that I didn't mean YOU as in Bowfinger per se, it was liberals in general...you know - a generic use of the term. I tend(try) to quote people directly or type their name if I mean them specifically.;)
But I think you(bowfinger) need to reread the article, the article was itself a "frame" to teach you how to "frame":) The word "Liberal" has taken on a somewhat "dirty" name(and rightfully so;)) and this piece is showing liberals how to frame themselves as "progressives". The reason he only uses the word "liberal" twice and "progressive" 30+ times is to try to harmonize the words so people come out saying "progressive" after they read the whole piece. Do you think he wasn't smart enough to carefully craft this piece using the same techniques he is trying to teach? The underlying issues he presents is somewhat like what the conservatives tried with "compassionate Conservatism". It's just a warm fuzzy coating wrapped around the same principles and ideals they've held for years, this candy coated "progressive" veneer is no different.
One, of course the article is a "frame", as is any article written to persuade a particular point of view. I'm not sure how that is relevant to anything.

Two, re. "liberal" vs. "progressive", what's the difference? I mean that literally: what differentiates a Liberal from a Progressive? I am not an ideology connoisseur. Please explain.

If they are the same, is it wrong to use the label Progressive? As I've said before, I think both "Conservative" and "Liberal" have become so twisted that neither means what it used to mean, nor does either offer useful information about the person or policy being labeled. (Witness "neo-conservative" which shares few of the values of traditional conservatism. "Neo-fascist" would be much more accurate.) Maybe it's time to establish new labels with well-defined foundations of specific principles and priorities.

Finally, and most importantly, the content of the article is the important part, not the definitions of political labels. While the author may encourage the use of "Progressive" instead of "Liberal", this is not the focus of the article.


It's a well thought out and written piece - it's just wrong on some of the content;)

CkG
Please explain which content you feel is wrong and why. It's tough to have a discussion when you don't offer any insight into your position.
How about it anyone. What's the difference between a Progressive and a Liberal?
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
It seems the liberal contigient didn't learn a thing from their last 2 or 3 disastrous election experiences. Here's a bit of advice from a Libertarian who would like to see the Democratic party do better so as to provide a better counterweight to the Republican party, "framing" isn't your problem, it's your ideas. For some reason, you can't look in the mirror and admit that the problem isn't that you didn't "get your message out to the voters," they heard your message loud and clear and flatly rejected it. Stop kidding yourselves that if you could just somehow think of the proper way to express them, then suddenly the voters will agree with your ideas. It doesn't matter how nice a frame you put around a pile of crap, in the end it'll still be a pile of crap.

Take some time out, rethink your policies and positions ask honestly ask yourselves why they didn't work, then start from scratch and come up with something that does. Of course, that means admitting that some of your past and current beliefs may actually be *gasp* wrong, but mature grown-ups know how to admit their mistakes and fix them. The other side was a basket case for years until they pulled their head out their ass and started listening to what the voters wanted. If you don't do this and continue putting the same-old, same-old out there next election, you're going to get your ass whipped again. And you'll deserve every blow you get.

 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: glenn1
It seems the liberal contigient didn't learn a thing from their last 2 or 3 disastrous election experiences. Here's a bit of advice from a Libertarian who would like to see the Democratic party do better so as to provide a better counterweight to the Republican party, "framing" isn't your problem, it's your ideas. For some reason, you can't look in the mirror and admit that the problem isn't that you didn't "get your message out to the voters," they heard your message loud and clear and flatly rejected it. Stop kidding yourselves that if you could just somehow think of the proper way to express them, then suddenly the voters will agree with your ideas. It doesn't matter how nice a frame you put around a pile of crap, in the end it'll still be a pile of crap.

Take some time out, rethink your policies and positions ask honestly ask yourselves why they didn't work, then start from scratch and come up with something that does. Of course, that means admitting that some of your past and current beliefs may actually be *gasp* wrong, but mature grown-ups know how to admit their mistakes and fix them. The other side was a basket case for years until they pulled their head out their ass and started listening to what the voters wanted. If you don't do this and continue putting the same-old, same-old out there next election, you're going to get your ass whipped again. And you'll deserve every blow you get.

well put. :beer:

CkG
 

Vadatajs

Diamond Member
Aug 28, 2001
3,475
0
0
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
This piece only reaffirms my positions as a conservative:)

And no, calling yourselves "progressives" instead of "liberals" isn't going to magically make your policies and ideals bearable for this nation:p
Usage of "Progressive" ~31 times
Usage of "liberal" 2 times
Can you tell me with a honest straight face that this piece isn't about trying to shed the "liberal" label by "framing" yourself as "progressive"?

CkG

good article

good comback
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
Originally posted by: glenn1
It seems the liberal contigient didn't learn a thing from their last 2 or 3 disastrous election experiences. Here's a bit of advice from a Libertarian who would like to see the Democratic party do better so as to provide a better counterweight to the Republican party, "framing" isn't your problem, it's your ideas. For some reason, you can't look in the mirror and admit that the problem isn't that you didn't "get your message out to the voters," they heard your message loud and clear and flatly rejected it. Stop kidding yourselves that if you could just somehow think of the proper way to express them, then suddenly the voters will agree with your ideas. It doesn't matter how nice a frame you put around a pile of crap, in the end it'll still be a pile of crap.

Take some time out, rethink your policies and positions ask honestly ask yourselves why they didn't work, then start from scratch and come up with something that does. Of course, that means admitting that some of your past and current beliefs may actually be *gasp* wrong, but mature grown-ups know how to admit their mistakes and fix them. The other side was a basket case for years until they pulled their head out their ass and started listening to what the voters wanted. If you don't do this and continue putting the same-old, same-old out there next election, you're going to get your ass whipped again. And you'll deserve every blow you get.
I'm sure there is some truth in your observations, but you've made one significant mistake. Point of fact, the voters did support the Democratic ideas in 2000. It was a slim majority, and we all know how the electoral vote turned out, but your assertion that the voters "flatly rejected it" is wrong.

You also misunderstand the article if you think the author's point is merely that Democrats need to express their message better. This is much more subtle and powerful. He is suggesting that the "progressives" need to learn to take control of the public mindset by challenging the right-wing tenets that have become insinuated in our society. The left needs to master the same science of public manipulation used by marketing experts to shape our culture and our base assumptions about the world. In a sense, he's suggesting the left needs to move from a defensive posture, always having to sell us on why the Republicans are wrong, to an offensive strategy where the right is forced into a reactive mode. I thought it was an interesting and insightful observation.


 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
Point of fact, the voters did support the Democratic ideas in 2000. It was a slim majority, and we all know how the electoral vote turned out, but your assertion that the voters "flatly rejected it" is wrong.

Voters supported a Democratic candidate by a slim margin in 2000 (at least in the total popular vote), but since Gore hardly ran on what would be considered a hardcore Democratic platform, i don't think that translates into support for modern Democratic ideas. Both he and Bush ran so relatively close to the center that it was hard to tell them apart. In most of the races in 2000 and 2002 where a Democrat ran on a more traditional Democratic platform, he was defeated soundly. For example, one of the exceptions would be Lautenberg winning in NJ in 2002. But for the most part, I was speaking of the broader collection of races such as Congress and local elections, in which liberals were on average trounced.

Don't get me wrong, i think the Democratic side of the aisle has as many good ideas as the Republicans. But it seems that many of the issues that are most dear to them are falling flat with voters in recent times. Sometimes an otherwise good idea may simply be crippled by bad timing. And for much of the modern liberal creed, the ideas are definitely past their expiration date as far as the electorate is concerned. The Republicans don't offer much that is better, but the ideas don't suffer from the same feeling of "staleness" among the electorate and is thus winning by default.

That's what i'm trying to encourage. I'm not saying the Democrats should change their worldview 180 degrees. They just need to craft a new idea from that worldview that will resonate with the electorate. Simply being the "anti-Republicans" will only lead you further into the wilderness. And all the current Democratic front-runners don't have a single original idea among them. That's a bad sign for your future.
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
Originally posted by: glenn1
Point of fact, the voters did support the Democratic ideas in 2000. It was a slim majority, and we all know how the electoral vote turned out, but your assertion that the voters "flatly rejected it" is wrong.

Voters supported a Democratic candidate by a slim margin in 2000 (at least in the total popular vote), but since Gore hardly ran on what would be considered a hardcore Democratic platform, i don't think that translates into support for modern Democratic ideas. Both he and Bush ran so relatively close to the center that it was hard to tell them apart. In most of the races in 2000 and 2002 where a Democrat ran on a more traditional Democratic platform, he was defeated soundly. For example, one of the exceptions would be Lautenberg winning in NJ in 2002. But for the most part, I was speaking of the broader collection of races such as Congress and local elections, in which liberals were on average trounced.

Don't get me wrong, i think the Democratic side of the aisle has as many good ideas as the Republicans. But it seems that many of the issues that are most dear to them are falling flat with voters in recent times. Sometimes an otherwise good idea may simply be crippled by bad timing. And for much of the modern liberal creed, the ideas are definitely past their expiration date as far as the electorate is concerned. The Republicans don't offer much that is better, but the ideas don't suffer from the same feeling of "staleness" among the electorate and is thus winning by default.

That's what i'm trying to encourage. I'm not saying the Democrats should change their worldview 180 degrees. They just need to craft a new idea from that worldview that will resonate with the electorate. Simply being the "anti-Republicans" will only lead you further into the wilderness. And all the current Democratic front-runners don't have a single original idea among them. That's a bad sign for your future.
I mostly agree with what you're saying, or at least mostly don't disagree. I don't think the 2002 elections were at all a referendum on Democratic positions vs. Republican positions. This election was dominated entirely by the spectre of 9/11 with its effect of pulling Americans together behind the current administration. I also still believe the reason many Democratic positions seem "stale" is because of the way they have been framed by the right. That's why I found this article so interesting. Most Americans, individually, tend to act in ways and support actions that would be considered traditionally liberal. Yet come election day, they will vote for Republicans. I think part of this incongruity is due to the way the right has framed "liberal" and traditional liberal ideals.

Finally, for the record, I am not a Democrat. While I've found myself supporting more Democrats than Republicans lately, I firmly belive in voting for people, not parties. I think we agree that in practice, the two parties are more similar than different, and that neither has much to be proud of.
 

heartsurgeon

Diamond Member
Aug 18, 2001
4,260
0
0
How conservatives control political debate and how progressives can take it back

hard to take back the political debate when liberals can't even agree on what to do (other than chanting the liberal mantra - "Bush is stupid, immoral, and a liar").

liberals are afraid to even say they are liberals.

total lack of unity and vision -
heck, the latest liberal flavor of the month, Wesley Clark - wasn't even a Democrat until the Clinton's decided to
enter him into the fray, in an effort to derail Howard Dean.

The Liberals cannot move ahead until have have the demon spawn of Clinton (Hillary, Terry McCauliffe, Rham Emanuel, etc) expunged from leadership
positions.