fram filters...opinions...

[skyking]

Hello,
I am the technical director at FRAM. First of all, let me address the failure on here. We did have an issue with a Cummins filter that we addressed immediately when the issue became known. We did buy three engines and changed the design of the filter immediately. No truck owner was out one penny in out of pocket costs. That said, yes, we make oil filters with engineered fiber end caps., So does Filtec (Nissan OE), Mahle (Bentley OE) and others. We have been OE on Honda for 13 years and Subaru for 6 years with this style of filter and never have had an issue with it. We make four styles of filters with the least expensive being the Orange can that is 95.7% efficiency@20 microns, the Tough Guard and Ultra filters at 99%@20 microns. Nothing WIX makes is better than 85% efficiency at 20 microns, just ask them. Additionally, many brands mentioned in this thread as being "good filters" are designed and built by FRAM filtration. We are OE on Ford, GM, Honda and Subaru. WIX is OE on nothing. All FRAM filters always meet or exceed OE specifications, that is our design mandate. I am more than happy to answer any filtration question by contacting me at jay.buckley@framgrp.com

What was the timeline of that problem?

 

[Ramses]

Hello,
I am the technical director at FRAM. First of all, let me address the failure on here. We did have an issue with a Cummins filter that we addressed immediately when the issue became known. We did buy three engines and changed the design of the filter immediately. No truck owner was out one penny in out of pocket costs. That said, yes, we make oil filters with engineered fiber end caps., So does Filtec (Nissan OE), Mahle (Bentley OE) and others. We have been OE on Honda for 13 years and Subaru for 6 years with this style of filter and never have had an issue with it. We make four styles of filters with the least expensive being the Orange can that is 95.7% efficiency@20 microns, the Tough Guard and Ultra filters at 99%@20 microns. Nothing WIX makes is better than 85% efficiency at 20 microns, just ask them. Additionally, many brands mentioned in this thread as being "good filters" are designed and built by FRAM filtration. We are OE on Ford, GM, Honda and Subaru. WIX is OE on nothing. All FRAM filters always meet or exceed OE specifications, that is our design mandate. I am more than happy to answer any filtration question by contacting me at jay.buckley@framgrp.com

You should get those OE's to have FRAM printed on those filters, it'd help.
You guys have what my grandmother would call a "tuff row to hoe" in FRAM branded consumer direct products at this point. Good luck.

 

[Meghan54]

Hello,
I am the technical director at FRAM. First of all, let me address the failure on here. We did have an issue with a Cummins filter that we addressed immediately when the issue became known. We did buy three engines and changed the design of the filter immediately. No truck owner was out one penny in out of pocket costs. That said, yes, we make oil filters with engineered fiber end caps., So does Filtec (Nissan OE), Mahle (Bentley OE) and others. We have been OE on Honda for 13 years and Subaru for 6 years with this style of filter and never have had an issue with it. We make four styles of filters with the least expensive being the Orange can that is 95.7% efficiency@20 microns, the Tough Guard and Ultra filters at 99%@20 microns. Nothing WIX makes is better than 85% efficiency at 20 microns, just ask them. Additionally, many brands mentioned in this thread as being "good filters" are designed and built by FRAM filtration. We are OE on Ford, GM, Honda and Subaru. WIX is OE on nothing. All FRAM filters always meet or exceed OE specifications, that is our design mandate. I am more than happy to answer any filtration question by contacting me at jay.buckley@framgrp.com

About the bolded part.....I did just that and strangely, Wix, at least in the filter for my engine, a GM 5.3L V-8 in an '03 Silverado, had a Beta Ratio of 2/20 = 6/20. And the Beta Ratio of 2/20=6/20 means this particular Wix filter is 50% efficient at 6 microns, 95% efficient at 20 microns. (The first pair of numbers are the beta ratios, in this case 2/20, defined in the chart below. The second pair of numbers represent the particle size for the respective beta ratio, in this case 6 microns and 20 microns.)

http://www.wixfilters.com/Lookup/PartDetails.aspx?Part=51042

So, who's wrong? Some random internet posting or a company's documentation? Is Wix lying?



Here's a chart for Beta Ratios.

Of course, the beta ratio is useless unless you know the particle size of the contaminate, like in the linked spec sheet from Wix, posted just above the chart.

So, nothing Wix makes is over 85% efficient at 20 microns? Ummm, OK.

 

[Ramses]

buuuurnn... lol

I looked briefly on wix site and didn't find it, two minutes was about as much effort as I cared to spend on Fram though, not because I'm positive they suck, but because there are so many other options I know don't suck. That is a tuff place to be in a market.

 

[master_shake_]

i use the ones that fit my 3.4 olds.

you know cheap ones without a box maybe some cellophane.

250000kms and she purrs even after having to flush the coolant out of the oil.

 

[Meghan54]

buuuurnn... lol

I looked briefly on wix site and didn't find it, two minutes was about as much effort as I cared to spend on Fram though, not because I'm positive they suck, but because there are so many other options I know don't suck. That is a tuff place to be in a market.

Yeah, Wix's website isn't exactly friendly or easy to use, esp. when you're looking for specifics on a filter.

I found it by searching for the filter for my vehicle, then clicking on the part number that came up, which produced the spec sheet. Took a bit for me to find it.

And this is why I don't trust any "representative" from any manufacturer posting on a forum with "facts". Usually the "facts" are misrepresented. I'd be willing to wager the Fram "rep" is using multipass filtration figures for the Fram and single pass filtration for competitors, as I have rarely seen any decent oil filters with less than 95% efficiency at 20 microns. It's going to have to be a real cheap/junk filter to not accomplish that.

 

[Ramses]

I agree, I thought the numbers looked like bunk too from memory but figured I'd let someone more up to speed handle it. Thanks

Honestly in my at least semi-professional opinion, any oil filter that doesn't fall apart or bypass constantly, given timely oil changes, is fine for longer than most folks can stand any given car, especially with today oils and fuel systems. I've seen Frams blow the casing out on diesels and air cooled Porsche motors in years past, yes they have high cold start pressure but 100psi ought not to blow a filter. They may well have corrected whatever it was causing that by now, but there are just so many options at anyone's fingertips for filters that never did have a problem. I can't find a reason to buy a Fram over all the others available practically anywhere. It's not 1970 anymore.
I don't envy them trying to fix their rep.

 

[skyking]

Until I helped tear down Dave's engine, I had no real reason to avoid them and had used them in the past. I had heard things but figured it was mostly bunk. It probably was. The complete fatality of his filter failure made me re-think that

 

[nakedfrog]

So, who's wrong? Some random internet posting or a company's documentation? Is Wix lying?

I will say I saw motorking on an automotive forum I frequent (in a thread about Fram filters, naturally). Based on the content there, I am inclined to think their representation of being a Fram employee is legit--but that doesn't mean the claim about Wix is true.

That said, I've used Fram oil and air filters in the past. I'll probably continue to use their air filters on occasion, but currently I'm on Purolator or Mobil 1 filters.

 

[Ramses]

At least they know there is a problem, or a perception problem. To have a guy, I assume being paid, to be looking for Fram discussion hard enough to have found it on this out of the way not very car oriented forum says something. That something is less good if they are badmouthing the competition with apparently inaccurate data more than goodmouthing their own product, but it's still trying I guess. Wonder if he posts on BITOG forum? Those guys are serious bout their oil and filters.

 

[Thump553]

At least they know there is a problem, or a perception problem. To have a guy, I assume being paid, to be looking for Fram discussion hard enough to have found it on this out of the way not very car oriented forum says something. That something is less good if they are badmouthing the competition with apparently inaccurate data more than goodmouthing their own product, but it's still trying I guess. Wonder if he posts on BITOG forum? Those guys are serious bout their oil and filters.

You've got to remember that car guys are very similar to audiophiles. They tend to have binary opinions-something is either great or it is total crap, no in between. Also anything mass-marketed almost always falls into the crap opinion box.

Fram has been dealing with a very vocal, very negative and highly opinionated group of pseudo-experts for decades. I'm not surprised at all if they do hire services to find threads like these and respond to them.

I'm no engineer and certainly no filter expert, and don't intend to be. I do know Fram sells a zillion filters a year and has done so for decades. I presume that filters have to go through some sort of certification/testing, otherwise Ford/VW etc. could reject your warranty claim on the grounds that you used a Fram/Wix etc. air filter, oil filter, etc. Personally I've used mostly either Fram or Purolator for four decades now without any problems. To me it's far more important for the average user to make sure they change their filters regularly.

<--No connection with Fram at all (I fact I mostly use Purolator now because I hate the black grip stuff Fram puts on the end of their filters, it interferes with my filter wrench).

 

[Ramses]

Very true. I learned a long time ago to not argue with a person if they have had a bad enough experience with a certain product/brand to put them off it. It's like eating at a restaurant and getting ill, logic says it's unlikely to be a common thing but one is still unlikely to go back there. It's just human nature I guess. I'm that way over some things and I try to remind myself to look at my reasoning why just as a good mental exercise if nothing else.

 

[thomsbrain]

I use OEM on all our cars. They're cheap enough and easy to buy in bulk online.

 

[bryanl]

I am the technical director at FRAM.

Why does AC often specify one filter for several applications where all the other filter makers specify several? Case in point: Fram PH2870A and PH3600 for VW and Ford, but AC once specified PF56 for both, despite the bypass pressure specifications being very different. This was even true for different GM engines - AC would specify the same filter for 2-4 engines while Fram, Wix, Purolator, etc. would specify a different filter for each.