Fractional T1 line - need one, and advice

[boomerang]

Folks, I don't know where to put this and was hoping that someone in here would have some knowledge on this.

I'm looking to open up a business in a leased space. I will need a computer that is connected to HQ (this is a franchise) on a constant basis 24/7/365 and broadband is a necessity. I have a space in my sights that is perfect in every way but no broadband.

Comcast wants $20,661.57 to run cable to the space. This cost is far too high for my budget. AT&T can provide me with a T1 line at $500 a month which is also too high a price. AT&T does not do fractionals, at least in this area.

Who do I contact for information and pricing? I haven't a clue.

 

[spidey07]

Call any of the local providers. I've never heard of anyone not doing a fractional T. No DSL?

 

[boomerang]

Call any of the local providers. I've never heard of anyone not doing a fractional T. No DSL?

No DSL and AT&T has a monopoly in the area. We have no choices for broadband or phone service. Only one provider for each. Options for long distance of course, but only one provider to run a line to your home or business.

Kinda semi-rural out here.

 

[drebo]

You'll typically find CLECs around that will be competitive with AT&T. You might even be able to find one that'll do an ATM T1.

However, with any T1, mileage is your biggest concern, so fractional or not you're going to be looking at a fairly large cost.

Also, around here (Central California), no one does fractional T1s anymore.

 

[boomerang]

You'll typically find CLECs around that will be competitive with AT&T. You might even be able to find one that'll do an ATM T1.

However, with any T1, mileage is your biggest concern, so fractional or not you're going to be looking at a fairly large cost.

Also, around here (Central California), no one does fractional T1s anymore.

Ah, so when I stated that the monthly cost was too high, the conversation never got to the point of the cost of actually providing service to the site?

BTW, I just looked at my notes and my memory was off, the price quoted was $589 a month.

Well, this is looking bad....

 

[imagoon]

Around here, fractional are more costly than a straight T1. Determine the value of 24/7/365 (you won't get that even on a T1, ATT here does router upgrades at least once a year which knocks the service out) vs the value of the cash itself. If you can stand some random disconnects, get DSL or some other service. Around here we have a wireless point to point service that works well. They use Motorola Canopy tech. However they not "cheap" either. 3MB sync = $450. They allow me to burst though (more like cable.) IE they guarantee 3MB sync but I can (and typically do) get more than that. Ping times actually rival the T1 backups I have.

 

[bobdole369]

Same here, fracs cost almost as much as bonded. This is one of the costs of doing business. IDSL even an option?

 

[bobdole369]

on a constant basis 24/7/365 and broadband is a necessity.

Hmm any way to shoot a wireless signal somewhere closer? Have you investigated satellite internet plans? Typically for something like a gas station a VSAT would be a smart investment that pays for itself. If its just POS that you need often VSAT can work. There is also 1 way and 2 way satellite that might be considered "broadband".

How about an ISDN? A couple of those while they wouldn't bond, maybe you could dedicate 128k to each machine? If I recall most ISDN is metered too so monthly is quite low.

 

[imagoon]

Hmm any way to shoot a wireless signal somewhere closer? Have you investigated satellite internet plans? Typically for something like a gas station a VSAT would be a smart investment that pays for itself. If its just POS that you need often VSAT can work. There is also 1 way and 2 way satellite that might be considered "broadband".

How about an ISDN? A couple of those while they wouldn't bond, maybe you could dedicate 128k to each machine? If I recall most ISDN is metered too so monthly is quite low.

Last time I used ISDN, it was over $100 for 2B + D and that didn't include "ISP."

 

[Emulex]

comcast metro-E is $895 for 10/10 synchrounous with bgp4 and five-9 uptime. they run straight fiber to you off the loop. this is unlike the $189 100/20 "comcast business" best effort service where you can go down for days lol.

see if cbeyond is in your area - they roll 8 lines and a t-1 for 495. or 16 lines and two t-1's bonded for $895 including all loop charges. that company and their evil clones are all over the place these days. but the price is good. they leave me alone with my ip's and let me run my own shiznit - reverse dns. very high uptime. been using them since they conceived in atlanta

 

[drebo]

Ah, so when I stated that the monthly cost was too high, the conversation never got to the point of the cost of actually providing service to the site?

BTW, I just looked at my notes and my memory was off, the price quoted was $589 a month.

Well, this is looking bad....

No, that $589/mo would include the mileage, the ports, and the bandwidth.

That's relatively high, though. You must be way out in the middle of nowhere.

 

[drebo]

I just did a quick search for CLECs in Michigan and came up with a couple:

NewEdge Networks (used to be Earthlink) offers ATM T1s for $289/mo. Don't know if that's viable in your location, because you didn't specify a location, but they may be an option. They're a pain in the ass to deal with and their customer service is garbage, but they're cheap!

Might also check with Level 3 and Paetec, both of which are listed as CLECs in Michigan and are large, national companies.

There's also a bunch of smaller ones I've never heard of before. Check the list here: http://www.business.com/directory/t...al_exchange_carriers_clec/us_states/michigan/

Call them all and see who will give you the best deal on a T1.

 

[boomerang]

Wow guys, I can't thank all of you enough for all the interest and advice. I'm man enough to admit that a lot of this is beyond my scope of knowledge and I'm more than a little overwhelmed by all the unfamiliar terminology.

For clarification, this will be a gym. It's a 24 hour operation and members gain access by way of an RFID "key". There are over 1500 locations worldwide with total reciprocity so there is the potential for members from other countries using the gym. I can't have members standing at the door for a lengthy period of time waiting for access. There is a security system with a DVR that is recording continuously with detection of movement. I can access the DVR from a computer anywhere to see what's happening in the club. No POS, just CC swiping and I'd hoped to do VOIP to keep phone costs low. Surfing of course, but strictly for business purposes.

Satellite internet is forbidden by the franchisor. They've tried it in the past and the results were too spotty so they've killed that option.

I've definitely heard of ISDN but my understanding was that it was a telco product. I can research though. I've never heard of IDSL but can research. The franchisor is doing legwork on wireless, but I already told them it doesn't exist here, but we'll see.

We're not in the middle of nowhere, but it's all relative. Site is in Clarkston, MI but just barely inside the boundary of the mailing address. Most people are on acreage but there are a number of upscale subs around the lakes.

I think I've answered everyone's questions.

Thanks again for the advice, names of companies etc.

 

[spidey07]

If it's just doing transaction access stuff ISDN would be your best bet.

 

[Emulex]

PRI isdn/[a,s]dsl/t-1 all share the same CO-distance rules.

 

[gsaldivar]

Check with your local cable company and see if they offer business data service.

 

[spidey07]

Check with your local cable company and see if they offer business data service.

They do, they're glad to extend service to him for 20K.

 

[spidey07]

PRI isdn/[a,s]dsl/t-1 all share the same CO-distance rules.

Not really. Depends on facilities in place. It would be better if OP described what he really needs. A circuit isn't just a circuit in cases like these.

"What do you really need"? comes to mind. Intarweb isn't the only answer. What do you need to talk to and how?

 

[gsaldivar]

They do, they're glad to extend service to him for 20K.

Ah I missed that, I thought 20k was the telco price.

 

[bobdole369]

Site is in Clarkston, MI

I used to live in redford/westland/ypsi/ann arbor. When I was a wee lad I'd talk to the folks up there via 2 meter amateur radio. I had a nice 3rd story apt (well my mom did) and I could nail the repeater out of lake orion fairly easily to talk to peeps in holly, shelby, oxford, waterford... Sorry off topic.

Folks - its basically in the sticks. Its essentially a fairly small town based on an exit off I-75, so I'm not surprised about no dsl or cable service. I'd also be kinda surprised if that $589/month held true once the CLEC realizes how much copper they need to lay to get the loop out to ya. No way they have metro-E out there. I doubt any VRADS or DSLAMS either. I'm not shocked at the price to run out a cable line. At least they offered it. Comcast is available literally 4 blocks from my office and they won't even offer to have us pay ot get the line this far up the street.

How about cell data service? Even Edge or CDMA would work for security doors. it would be pretty hard to surf on that or view cameras, but I've actually done it over an edge device. It was 2-10 frames per second but absolutely doable.

IDSL is 144k service that is essentially ISDN over DSL lines. It has a VERY long loop length. Basically if you can get a copper phone line you can probably get IDSL (its distance requirements measure in tens of miles (of good ole michigan bell - turned ameritech - turned wtf is it now?) actually has the equip in the CO.

 

[drebo]

I'd also be kinda surprised if that $589/month held true once the CLEC realizes how much copper they need to lay to get the loop out to ya.

CLECs don't own their own copper. They lease the copper from the ILEC and resell it. However, they do provide their own ports (at the CO) and bandwidth, and can get large discounts on mileage (40-60% depending on volume) and thus will usually offer service at a lower price than the ILEC (this is true for T1 loops generally). Basically, if an ILEC can offer T1 service in an area and a CLEC has an agreement for that area with that ILEC (typically state-wide or larger), then the CLEC can offer service without any special considerations.

But there are also other types of circuits that can operate over that same pair, such as ATM, which is typically a LOT cheaper to operate.

Most T1s operate over some form of SHDSL, but they don't have to.

My recommendation is to call each of the CLECs listed and find the one that gives you the best price on a T1.

 

[boomerang]

Guys, there's been a new development that is a plus. In talking with the Comcast rep, they will assume $7K of the cost. This is good. The cost is now down to $13.5K.

Something to remember. This is a franchise and my computer will need to be in contact with HQ for door access. My computer also needs to be in contact with a third party billing service who has contracted with the franchisor. These people dictate what the form of communication will be. You, as a franchisee as an example, don't tell McDonald's what to do and this situation is no different.

Having said that, I've been crunching the numbers and the Comcast solution at this price point makes the most sense. The landlord has indicated that they may split that cost with me too. Negotiations will prove that out so we'll see. If so, this will be a no-brainer.

Comcast in this township and a nearby township where I live strung the whole area with new fiber about...10 years ago IIRC. The few outages I've had have occurred when bad storms have moved through the area and the power was out too. Often the power was out but Comcast was up and I was online under generator power. I've had a few issues with water in connectors too. Very reliable in this area.

In addition to internet, I want VOIP, but TV is a must. If I have to have one provider for two and another for one, the costs start to add up and the Comcast solution makes the most sense.

bobdole369, how long since you've lived in Michigan? I've lived in this area since 1978. When I moved out here it was the sticks. No traffic lights and when pulling out on the main road, you looked for cars because you should, but the chances of their being one was slim.

When I was working (up until about 3 years ago) the main North South road to I-75 was nearly bumper to bumper for 8 miles down to I-75 in the mornings. Traffic was usually moving at a good clip but it was amazing to see how many people were on the road. Taillights ahead as far as one could see. I always felt sorry for the poor suckers on the side roads that needed to pull out.

It ain't like it used to be. Google map I-75 and the Baldwin road intersection and look at the development. When I moved out here that intersection and the Joslyn and Sashabaw intersections were practically farm fields. I used to buy the occasional motorcycle part from a guy named Ron Finch http://www.finchscustoms.com/ that had a shop at Joslyn and Brown Rd. It was high on a hill that looked like it was surrounded by cow pasture. There's a Sam's and a Home Depot up there now. Mr. Finch became a very wealthy man and still owns property in the area. I looked at two commercial developments he owns in my search for a site.

Enough nostalgia for now...

 

[Emulex]

comcast just wants the big contract length and they will kiss butt. give them their 5 years and some upfront cash. heck i paid them over $400 for a single month to have overlapping service. price to be up 100%.

and make sure you realize comcast business is best-effort. no real SLA. comcast metro-e is real sla. so when its down for 3-4 days you'll need a dialup backup