foxpro

[damiano]

i tried to post in the software and apps forum but no luck
I will have to develop a project in foxpro (client requirement)
any thought on it?
any good site to read about it?
i googled but came up only with crap

thx
Damiano

 

[Ameesh]

its a good piece of software, a bit propietary but its been around for a long time. a good friend of mine is one of the few devs on the team. any specific info you are looking for?

 

[damiano]

do a kind of streaming forum where people can post financial ideas and tips (this is for a wall street client)
can you do a front end window of the "applet type" ?

would it be tough to pick up (i know JAVA , C++, VB and a few others)
any other thoughts apreciated

 

[AndyHui]

I used to program in FoxPro. It's a good piece of software as ameesh says. It has its quirks, but is incredibly good at what it does...database type stuff.

The language is similar to VB, but far more consistent and straight forward. VB is a mish-mash of ideas, but FoxPro is relatively unified. You should be able to pick it up quite quickly.

 

[damiano]

thanks for the quick tips

any other thoughts?

 

[vi edit]

It runs like ass when you have a DB that's bigger than 500 meg...or so I have experienced.

But then, the DB designers could be idiots and designed it like poo too so that could be part of the problem.

 

[damiano]

any other toughts?
im still debating on if to use it or not
my client really wants it
but im still far from being cnvinced

 

[Muse]

Originally posted by: damiano
any other toughts?
im still debating on if to use it or not
my client really wants it
but im still far from being cnvinced

I wonder why your client wants it. Foxpro is my strength, really the only program I'm currently strong in. All my jobs in the last 10 years have been Foxpro. The latest version is Visual Foxpro 8.0, and 9.0 is on the way. It might be the last version, hard to say. Foxpro came out of Foxbase, and was bought from Fox Software by Microsoft, who still own and develop and support it. Most of the old dbase programmers who stuck with it migrated to Foxpro. It's extremely good with data. I think it's definitely the best language for data intensive work, data manipulation. Just about any command you could want in that area is supported and in spades. Also, it's very fast.

When Foxpro went from version 2.6a to version 3.0, they renamed it Visual Foxpro, and it was a quantum leap. Visual Foxpro is fully object oriented. All versions since version 3 have been micro-steps compared with the leap to version 3.0. However, it's made very significant progress, many great important features have been introduced in ensuing versions.

It wasn't developed with web-based use in mind but there are lots of ways in which it can be successfully used with web-based systems. For instance, it can integrate well with .NET systems and web services. It doesn't have built in industrial strength security such as you will find with Oracle, however. Therefore, institutions such as banks use the heavy hitters for the systems that require strong security.

I got started by taking a couple of courses and then I bought a decent book and studied it thoroughly, and worked on a personal application that interested me for practice. From there, I started getting work. There's several newsgroups specific to Foxpro and other online sites such as foxcentral.net. Be aware, though, that Foxpro has been declining in usage for a number of years. The reasons for this are a bit complex. For one thing, Microsoft doesn't see fit to promote and publicize it. MS has preferred to promote it's other database and database related products. The reasons for that are oft discussed in the Foxpro newsgroups, etc.

 

[wfay]

I have fairly limited use of Foxpro so take my comments with a grain of salt...

I used Foxpro back in the Win 3.11 days when it still ran in DOS. It was a decent DB system at the time, considering other systems that were available for the PC.

The last time I used Foxpro it was to upgrade some data out of Foxpro v4 into Access and from there upsize it into SQL Server. The ultimate use of the data was in an online data browser, nothing special. We probably could have kept it in Foxpro but they wanted it in SQL Server instead.

It seems to me that MS has done little to advance and promote the use of Foxpro and instead would prefer that you use Access and SQL Server. This is probably a great example of the Microsoft effect on the marketplace (buy your competitors and then stop producing their product, and amazingly enough, your own product will gain marketshare).

At this point, I would be very hesitant about doing any new development in Foxpro unless there is a very specific function that you cannot find in other databases that have not, for all intents, been EOL'ed (end of life) by the company supporting the product. However, my general opinion is that databases are essentially a commodity at this point for 75% of the people who use them, and that you should instead be looking at products like Postgres, Mysql, or SAPDB (which is currently being merged with Mysql). In the few cases where those products will not cut it, you should be using Oracle, DB2, SQL Server (gag), or another commercial product depending on your specific needs.

 

[Double Trouble]

I've used Foxpro (later VFP) for about 10 years now, it's an excellent tool. Muse did a nice summary. Basically, when it comes to database stuff and data manipulation etc, it's awesome. It has pretty much everything in it you could possibly want and use, with a couple of big glaring holes. First, there's no native support for security and encryption. You have to pretty much layer it in yourself, or use a third party product. It's also not a native web development tool, and you can't use it to quickly develop a nifty site or anything like that..... but you CAN use it in conjunction with other tools. It makes an excellent data back end for a web server, and can even handle data in pretty much any format you can throw at it.

I'm using version 8 SP1 right now. If you're familiar with VB, learning VFP should be a snap.....

 

[Muse]

Originally posted by: wfay
I have fairly limited use of Foxpro so take my comments with a grain of salt...

I used Foxpro back in the Win 3.11 days when it still ran in DOS. It was a decent DB system at the time, considering other systems that were available for the PC.

The last time I used Foxpro it was to upgrade some data out of Foxpro v4 into Access and from there upsize it into SQL Server. The ultimate use of the data was in an online data browser, nothing special. We probably could have kept it in Foxpro but they wanted it in SQL Server instead.

It seems to me that MS has done little to advance and promote the use of Foxpro and instead would prefer that you use Access and SQL Server. This is probably a great example of the Microsoft effect on the marketplace (buy your competitors and then stop producing their product, and amazingly enough, your own product will gain marketshare).

At this point, I would be very hesitant about doing any new development in Foxpro unless there is a very specific function that you cannot find in other databases that have not, for all intents, been EOL'ed (end of life) by the company supporting the product. However, my general opinion is that databases are essentially a commodity at this point for 75% of the people who use them, and that you should instead be looking at products like Postgres, Mysql, or SAPDB (which is currently being merged with Mysql). In the few cases where those products will not cut it, you should be using Oracle, DB2, SQL Server (gag), or another commercial product depending on your specific needs.

Perdoname, but there is no version 4 of Foxpro. It is not true that Foxpro has not advanced and markedly. MS did not just go for the throat and kill it. There is a very large Foxpro community. It IS smaller than it was, but it is strong, very much worldwide and it includes many of the most talented programmers on the planet.

 

[wfay]

Originally posted by: Muse
Perdoname, but there is no version 4 of Foxpro. It is not true that Foxpro has not advanced and markedly. MS did not just go for the throat and kill it. There is a very large Foxpro community. It IS smaller than it was, but it is strong, very much worldwide and it includes many of the most talented programmers on the planet.

"I have fairly limited use of Foxpro so take my comments with a grain of salt..."

OK FP Master, it was v3, who knows, whatever. It was a WHILE ago (seriously it was 7-8 yrs ago) and I don't really recall.

My opinion on databases being essentially a commodity at this point has not changed.

 

[Muse]

Originally posted by: wfay

Originally posted by: Muse
Perdoname, but there is no version 4 of Foxpro. It is not true that Foxpro has not advanced and markedly. MS did not just go for the throat and kill it. There is a very large Foxpro community. It IS smaller than it was, but it is strong, very much worldwide and it includes many of the most talented programmers on the planet.

"I have fairly limited use of Foxpro so take my comments with a grain of salt..."

OK FP Master, it was v3, who knows, whatever. It was a WHILE ago (seriously it was 7-8 yrs ago) and I don't really recall.

My opinion on databases being essentially a commodity at this point has not changed.

I never claimed to be a Foxpro "master" but I bet I know a ton more about it than you. You are entitled to your opinion. They are certainly for sale. What you mean as far as commodities is concerned escapes me. There is much new development still being done in Foxpro and it's not all misguided. In many situations Foxpro is an excellent choice for at least one of the components.

 

[damiano]

Originally posted by: Muse

Originally posted by: wfay

Originally posted by: Muse
Perdoname, but there is no version 4 of Foxpro. It is not true that Foxpro has not advanced and markedly. MS did not just go for the throat and kill it. There is a very large Foxpro community. It IS smaller than it was, but it is strong, very much worldwide and it includes many of the most talented programmers on the planet.

"I have fairly limited use of Foxpro so take my comments with a grain of salt..."

OK FP Master, it was v3, who knows, whatever. It was a WHILE ago (seriously it was 7-8 yrs ago) and I don't really recall.

My opinion on databases being essentially a commodity at this point has not changed.

I don't claim to be a Foxpro "master" but I bet I'm better than you. You are entitled to your opinion. They are certainly for sale. What you mean as far as commodities is concerned escapes me. There is much new development still being done in Foxpro and it's not all misguided. In many situations Foxpro is an excellent choice for at least one of the components.

i didnt think my thread was gonna become a stupid contest
and as I know him personally
i assure that wfay is a pretty smart programmer
but well
any other thoughts?

 

[Muse]

You haven't said much about the requirements. If you need to get up to speed fast there are excellent courses. That's how I got into Visual Foxpro (I learned 2.5 initially, for DOS and Windows), by taking a couple of crash courses that each lasted about a week. They were attended by around 15 programmers each and taught by an excellent teacher and were based on a well thought-out system. When Foxpro went object oriented it became almost crucial to have a strategy for implementation and this has given rise to several frameworks for development. The particular one I learned in those medium and advanced courses was by Micro Endeavors. It's not really a framework that they had so much as a sample application built on some ingenious principles. However, there are several full-featured frameworks that developers often buy into. Many developers develop their own frameworks, but getting an "off the shelf" framework saves you a great deal of time and effort in getting "off the ground."

I'm still curious why your client wants Foxpro. It's usually the other way around. Since MS does little to nothing to promote and advertise the product, they usually have an idea that VB or SQL or some other product is the thing to use. The developer who recognizes that Foxpro would make sense for a project often has an uphill battle convincing his client.

 

[Double Trouble]

While "databases" might be a commodity at this point, VFP is not just a database. It's a set of tools that allows you to do a whole bunch of things, a development environment that is very flexible and can be used to develop just about any app you can imagine. It has certain stengths and weaknesses that make it better suited for certain tasks, but overall it's a great tool -- which is why it has survived this long without MS 'pushing' or marketing it like their other tools.

One of the areas where VFP is fairly week is web development. You can use it as the back-end for web apps, but there's not a lot of native web-aware stuff in VFP. With the last couple of versions though, MS is starting to tie it into .net etc, so that gap will probably be closed soon as well.

In your particular situation, why does the customer want to use VFP? Do they have a bunch of foxpro legacy apps? If so, VFP might be a good tool to use. It all depends on what their needs are and how you intend to use VFP. From experience, I would say that VFP is not all that difficult to learn.

 

[wfay]

Sounds to me (uneducated on this) like VFP is more like Oracle (Oracle Forms, Application Server, Jdeveloper etc) than simply a database system. If that is the case, then I'm sure there are lots of reasons to choose VFP over a simple RDBMS system.

Not trying to diss VFP if it is more than a simple RDBMS, I simply am not educated on VFP. I just don't like the idea of setting up a new system on a dying platform unless you have very specific reasons for it. "It might be the last version, hard to say."

 

[damiano]

i have to use it cuz my client heard from a friend of a friend that is suposdly a great IT guy
that its a great program

 

[Muse]

Originally posted by: wfay
Sounds to me (uneducated on this) like VFP is more like Oracle (Oracle Forms, Application Server, Jdeveloper etc) than simply a database system. If that is the case, then I'm sure there are lots of reasons to choose VFP over a simple RDBMS system.

Not trying to diss VFP if it is more than a simple RDBMS, I simply am not educated on VFP. I just don't like the idea of setting up a new system on a dying platform unless you have very specific reasons for it. "It might be the last version, hard to say."

VFP is far, far more than an RDBMS. There's going to be at least one more version of VFP, version 9.0. Beyond that, maybe not. This is not something that I know for a fact, but I recall hearing it from a source that I thought had some credibility. However, there has been speculation like that going on for several years and it's always turned out to be false, so who knows? Aside from that, there's a lot of people all over the world who do not want Fox to die. That in and of itself may propel it further into the future.

 

[Muse]

Originally posted by: tagej
While "databases" might be a commodity at this point, VFP is not just a database. It's a set of tools that allows you to do a whole bunch of things, a development environment that is very flexible and can be used to develop just about any app you can imagine. It has certain stengths and weaknesses that make it better suited for certain tasks, but overall it's a great tool -- which is why it has survived this long without MS 'pushing' or marketing it like their other tools.

One of the areas where VFP is fairly week is web development. You can use it as the back-end for web apps, but there's not a lot of native web-aware stuff in VFP. With the last couple of versions though, MS is starting to tie it into .net etc, so that gap will probably be closed soon as well.

In your particular situation, why does the customer want to use VFP? Do they have a bunch of foxpro legacy apps? If so, VFP might be a good tool to use. It all depends on what their needs are and how you intend to use VFP. From experience, I would say that VFP is not all that difficult to learn.

I agree with this. Web development, security and encryption are weaknesses of Foxpro. However, there are ways of implementing them anyway.

Not only is Foxpro a tremendous set of tools, but there is a tremendous amount of third party support - more tools. There's even a DLL (originating from Microsoft) available to make many of the great (formerly proprietary) Foxpro commands available in the .NET development arena.

 

[damiano]

well after talking to a lot of people about this I decided what to do about this project

mysql DB
JAVA Backend
and the client (which i'd rather do with an applet or VB) will be foxpro to please the customer

thanks a lot for all the help with that sh!t
cheers
Damiano

 

[Muse]

Originally posted by: damiano
well after talking to a lot of people about this I decided what to do about this project

mysql DB
JAVA Backend
and the client (which i'd rather do with an applet or VB) will be foxpro to please the customer

thanks a lot for all the help with that sh!t
cheers
Damiano

Foxpro is very often used in these multi-tier systems as a front end (also middle-tier and even back end). It shouldn't present a great difficulty. Good luck!

 

[damiano]

Originally posted by: Muse

Originally posted by: damiano
well after talking to a lot of people about this I decided what to do about this project

mysql DB
JAVA Backend
and the client (which i'd rather do with an applet or VB) will be foxpro to please the customer

thanks a lot for all the help with that sh!t
cheers
Damiano

Foxpro is very often used in these multi-tier systems as a front end (also middle-tier and even back end). It shouldn't present a great difficulty. Good luck!

hah
thanks muse
at the end
i said fvck fox pro and did the front end with java applets
oh well at least now i am well informed about foxpro