Fox News puts out a lie about Joe Biden banning beef. Waits an entire weekend for it to be spread before a lone reporter retracted

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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
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"More affordable" is still way out of reach of people living on the street and you know it.
For some people it will still be out of reach, but the good news is building more houses solves this as well! With more housing you get more tax money, money you can use to subsidize rent for people who will not be able to afford it under any plausible set of circumstances. It's not like all homeless people are the same with zero income, a non-trivial percentage of them are currently employed! So, as you build more houses they are the first people who are able to escape homelessness. Keep driving the prices down and then more will be able to escape. Eventually you'll reach a point where the people left can't really be helped by market rate construction so you build public housing or subsidize rents for them.

It's no mystery why the homeless population in California went up more than 20% in the last decade - housing prices went through the roof. Even if we just stopped banning enough housing to return prices to their extremely high 2010 level, imagine a policy that costs the taxpayer nothing that could reduce homelessness by 20%. Who wouldn't jump on that?
 
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woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
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"More affordable" is still way out of reach of people living on the street and you know it.

Before they became homeless, they couldn't afford housing, either for purchase or rental. Making housing less expensive means fewer people become homeless to begin with.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,634
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Yea, and the number one reason for being broke is that you have no money!
Iron Wing is right, even if more homes built, left to the free market, the rent will still be out of reach of people living on the street. The only answer that would seem to work for me is to allow market rate rents, but for the government to subsidize part of it.

It will be out of reach for some, but not all. And, as woolfe rightly mentions, making housing cheaper will prevent more people from becoming homeless to begin with. As far as subsidies go, sure. As I mentioned one great thing about more housing is more tax dollars you can do to subsidize rents for those who can't afford even the cheaper rents.

Regardless, government bans on home building is driving prices up, not down.

Lets face it though, the real answer has to be to address the mental health and job training issues so that homeless people can get a decent paying job in order to have resources to pay for an apartment (you could throw affordable child care in there too).
It's a common misconception that most people who are homeless because they are addicts or mentally ill. While the homeless population does have a much higher percentage of mentally ill people than the overall population, by far the primary reason for homelessness is that people are poor and can't absorb economic shocks. Their car breaks down and they can't afford to fix it so they lose their job, then they lose their home, things like that. If rents were lower, this would happen less often.
 
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ondma

Platinum Member
Mar 18, 2018
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It will be out of reach for some, but not all. And, as woolfe rightly mentions, making housing cheaper will prevent more people from becoming homeless to begin with. As far as subsidies go, sure. As I mentioned one great thing about more housing is more tax dollars you can do to subsidize rents for those who can't afford even the cheaper rents.

Regardless, government bans on home building is driving prices up, not down.


It's a common misconception that most people who are homeless because they are addicts or mentally ill. While the homeless population does have a much higher percentage of mentally ill people than the overall population, by far the primary reason for homelessness is that people are poor and can't absorb economic shocks. Their car breaks down and they can't afford to fix it so they lose their job, then they lose their home, things like that. If rents were lower, this would happen less often.
That is true, although there do have to be standards about where/how homes or apartments are built. Where I live, (Twin Cities, MN), this doesn't really seem to be a problem. New homes, and especially apartments, seem to magically appear anywhere there is an open spot of land. In fact, my wife and I both are unable to understand how there is demand enough to fill all the new construction. There must be, though, since single family homes, at least, are in short supply.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,634
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That is true, although there do have to be standards about where/how homes or apartments are built. Where I live, (Twin Cities, MN), this doesn't really seem to be a problem. New homes, and especially apartments, seem to magically appear anywhere there is an open spot of land. In fact, my wife and I both are unable to understand how there is demand enough to fill all the new construction. There must be, though, since single family homes, at least, are in short supply.
I agree that there should be safety standards for how and where homes are built, but why do we need to limit other construction?

I think the best solution I've read is that the law should default to anyone building whatever they want, wherever they want so long as they own the land and it's not unsafe. If people want to object the burden of proof is on them to show why something shouldn't be built, but things like parking and 'neighborhood character' would not be valid objections. (the idea that neighborhoods should be prevented by law from changing is ridiculous)
 
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ondma

Platinum Member
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BTW, didnt this thread start out about the Fox news beef story?
We are wildly off topic.
 

BurnItDwn

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
26,167
1,638
126
daily fail and faux news both need disclaimers since they are very clearly satire.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
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136
Is the problem that Fox News tells lies, or is it that their viewers are gullible enough to actually believe this shit?

I mean, seriously..
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
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daily fail and faux news both need disclaimers since they are very clearly satire.
Isn't that how they're fighting the libel suits against them? That no reasonable person would believe the BS they sell as "news?"

It is impossible to overstate the contempt that conservative media has for the intellects of their readers/viewers.
 

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
23,993
13,519
136
Yea, laugh it up... the thing that kicks me in the nuts is the prospect of the propaganda machine having reached critical mass.
What if the machine is SO strong that for all intents and purposes, the "Jew Space Lasers" are real for a huge part of the American population? They can make anything up, *ANYTHING*, and instantly have 50M+ Americans believe it.
That's fucking power!
It has all become so fucking muddy, people are flocking to these golden calfs for guidance


"Influencers" that wakes up one day, with millions of subs/followers and go, wait a minute, I have figured this covid thing out... AND I NEVER WENT TO SCHOOL EITHER.. I am genius....must get the word out.
And especially *these* butches are bad, cause all they care about is that sub money, so they all both-sides it to hell and back. CANT LOSE A SUB!!!
 
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Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
73,286
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Is the problem that Fox News tells lies, or is it that their viewers are gullible enough to actually believe this shit?

I mean, seriously..
I don't see how a capitalist system built of programming people to believe they need things they don't really need can survive in a society of people who have actually been made aware of how to prevent their own brainwashing. What kind of society would it be if things were built sustainably, artistically, environmentally, pleasing to the ape that lives within us? All people who have real choice would want is to live in a tree house on the savanna in a wild animal park.

So lets pave paradise and put up a parking lot. You don't know what you had until it is gone unless you never had anything to begin with.

The relationship of this topic to beef is that people fear that liberals want to take their beef, their culture, and their dreams of home ownership they have already achieved to build a society of grubs rubbing happily against each other by the millions in tiny boxes where they can happily eat their corn meal. Instead of the issue being the structure of society that creates millions in poverty who can't afford to live in desirable places, his plan is to make everything cheap by turning every desirable place to live into a shit hole. They anybody will be able to afford it. It's cheap to live in a favela.

What are the options in a market economy to lower prices on desirable foods. You can limit the number of mouths that are eating. You can produce more of whatever it is people want to eat. Or you can create different better foods at a lower price.

You can decrease or increase demand and thereby supply by increasing or lowering the capacity to buy. @fskimospy wants to build more cheaper housing where demand is high. I want to increase income so desirable housing can be built without massive crowding by creating new housing that is psychologically conducive of mental health. Rats, I know, act like rats with crowding. I think people are the same. Fskimo wants change but change for the worst. I want change too but for what I think of as better. That does not include forcing old people to pay taxes they can't afford, people who have traded the wealth in their homes for the opportunity to give them to their kids. The big problem with people who are rational is that they can also be cold. Too many camel bones and one forgets what a real camel looks like. They have living beauty. Without close connection with nature frequently a part of the soul dies in my opinion.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,336
136
I don't see how a capitalist system built of programming people to believe they need things they don't really need can survive in a society of people who have actually been made aware of how to prevent their own brainwashing. What kind of society would it be if things were built sustainably, artistically, environmentally, pleasing to the ape that lives within us? All people who have real choice would want is to live in a tree house on the savanna in a wild animal park.

So lets pave paradise and put up a parking lot. You don't know what you had until it is gone unless you never had anything to begin with.

The relationship of this topic to beef is that people fear that liberals want to take their beef, their culture, and their dreams of home ownership they have already achieved to build a society of grubs rubbing happily against each other by the millions in tiny boxes where they can happily eat their corn meal. Instead of the issue being the structure of society that creates millions in poverty who can't afford to live in desirable places, his plan is to make everything cheap by turning every desirable place to live into a shit hole. They anybody will be able to afford it. It's cheap to live in a favela.

What are the options in a market economy to lower prices on desirable foods. You can limit the number of mouths that are eating. You can produce more of whatever it is people want to eat. Or you can create different better foods at a lower price.

You can decrease or increase demand and thereby supply by increasing or lowering the capacity to buy. @fskimospy wants to build more cheaper housing where demand is high. I want to increase income so desirable housing can be built without massive crowding by creating new housing that is psychologically conducive of mental health. Rats, I know, act like rats with crowding. I think people are the same. Fskimo wants change but change for the worst. I want change too but for what I think of as better. That does not include forcing old people to pay taxes they can't afford, people who have traded the wealth in their homes for the opportunity to give them to their kids. The big problem with people who are rational is that they can also be cold. Too many camel bones and one forgets what a real camel looks like. They have living beauty. Without close connection with nature frequently a part of the soul dies in my opinion.

Capitalism says that beef is costly and that that cost should be borne by the end consumer, even if that reduces demand. Favelas most frequently exist because of laws that prevent adequate housing development. People need a place to live, and crowding is better for mental health in safe and sanitary housing, as opposed to homeless or in a slum. The only proven way to reduce population growth is to decrease wealth inequality, as affluent women have significantly fewer babies on average than poorer women. And old folks can avoid those taxes by cashing out their equity and moving to a more affordable location, particularly now that they no longer require living on prime real estate.
Efficiency is nature. The human soul, when seeking for love and compassion, is what's unnatural.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
73,286
6,351
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Capitalism says that beef is costly and that that cost should be borne by the end consumer, even if that reduces demand. Favelas most frequently exist because of laws that prevent adequate housing development. People need a place to live, and crowding is better for mental health in safe and sanitary housing, as opposed to homeless or in a slum. The only proven way to reduce population growth is to decrease wealth inequality, as affluent women have significantly fewer babies on average than poorer women. And old folks can avoid those taxes by cashing out their equity and moving to a more affordable location, particularly now that they no longer require living on prime real estate.
Efficiency is nature. The human soul, when seeking for love and compassion, is what's unnatural.
The natural and unnatural you describe, in my opinion, is dependent on your analysis having reality within the system as it currently exists. I believe that what we call reality isn’t. It is a mental prison. I believe that people who have any idea what reality is is very small.

I guess being on life support is better than death.
 
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pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
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It would not just help them, it is the surest way to do it!

The number one reason for being homeless is not mental illness or substance abuse, it's not being able to afford a home. Building more homes makes homes more affordable.

A -> B.

Have to say I've read many contradictory accounts/analysis of homelessness. And it does seem that mental health problems are a big part of it. But also the sheer cost of housing...I admit I find myself thinking it's whichever of those issues I most recently read about.

Also, don't know about the US, but here "affordable housing" has a very particular technical meaning, that very definitely doesn't actually mean that normal people can afford it.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,634
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Have to say I've read many contradictory accounts/analysis of homelessness. And it does seem that mental health problems are a big part of it. But also the sheer cost of housing...I admit I find myself thinking it's whichever of those issues I most recently read about.
I mean it’s caused by lots of things, but high housing costs are the largest contributor. (And really feed into the others). Just look at California, housing costs skyrocketed over the last decade and homelessness increased along with it. What’s the more likely answer, that Californians suddenly went crazy or that high housing costs led to fewer people being able to afford homes?

Also, don't know about the US, but here "affordable housing" has a very particular technical meaning, that very definitely doesn't actually mean that normal people can afford it.
Yes, affordable housing doesn’t necessarily mean affordable here either, but the point remains. You have to subsidize housing for the poorest, for sure, but most people would be well served by no longer banning construction.

A good example is Tokyo. It’s an expensive mega city like New York, but housing there is a lot cheaper. A big contributor to this is…they build a lot of housing.
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,636
8,522
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I mean it’s caused by lots of things, but high housing costs are the largest contributor. (And really feed into the others). Just look at California, housing costs skyrocketed over the last decade and homelessness increased along with it. What’s the more likely answer, that Californians suddenly went crazy or that high housing costs led to fewer people being able to afford homes?

Guess if the topic is recent history and California specifically that's significant evidence (TBH wasn't really paying close attention to what the context of the discussion was). At other times and in other places though there's been a strong correlation with the closing of residential psychiatric facilities and the failure to provide such support for those who need it. I've also read accounts from those working in the field of homelessness in this country describing how hard it is to solve housing problems for people when their mental health issues are not being addressed.
 
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dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
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Guess if the topic is recent history and California specifically that's significant evidence (TBH wasn't really paying close attention to what the context of the discussion was). At other times and in other places though there's been a strong correlation with the closing of residential psychiatric facilities and the failure to provide such support for those who need it. I've also read accounts from those working in the field of homelessness in this country describing how hard it is to solve housing problems for people when their mental health issues are not being addressed.
I'm sure weather is a large factor as well. If you're going to live on the street, might as well do it where the weather is almost always nice.
 

hal2kilo

Lifer
Feb 24, 2009
24,222
10,877
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Well, this didn't work out so well did it.

Climate Nothingburger Shows Republicans Need “a New PR Agency” – Mother Jones

Prominent Republicans seized upon the supposed Biden climate diktat—which does not exist. The Texas governor, Greg Abbott, retweeted a claim of a four-pound-a-year meat allocation with the comment: “Not gonna happen in Texas!” The far-right conspiracy theorist Marjorie Taylor Greene, a Republican representative, called Biden the “Hamburglar” while Garret Graves, ostensibly a more moderate House Republican, said the president’s plan amounted to “dictatorship.”

The unfounded claims, which appear to have somehow sprouted from a University of Michigan study on the impact of meat eating, do not reflect Biden’s actual proposals to tackle global heating, which make no mention of personal meat consumption. But they have dealt a hefty blow to Republicans’ latest efforts to present themselves as committed to taking on the climate crisis.
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
36,730
28,908
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Right wing lie chamber. Get some rag to put out a lie first so they can all repeat it.
 

MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
23,081
21,202
136
I had really cut down on the red meat for a couple years, but the last week I've had two burgers. I guess I'm just worried that Biden's Burger Gestapo are gonna come for me soon, so I better enjoy myself
 

Aikouka

Lifer
Nov 27, 2001
30,383
912
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I mean it’s caused by lots of things, but high housing costs are the largest contributor. (And really feed into the others). Just look at California, housing costs skyrocketed over the last decade and homelessness increased along with it. What’s the more likely answer, that Californians suddenly went crazy or that high housing costs led to fewer people being able to afford homes?

Isn't it also problematic that homelessness is likely rather hard to escape from? I was talking to a homeless guy for about an hour outside Target a few years back, and he was telling me how it isn't easy to get employment when you can't list a home address and you have to try to keep up a phone for communication that you need money to support.

A good example is Tokyo. It’s an expensive mega city like New York, but housing there is a lot cheaper. A big contributor to this is…they build a lot of housing.

Japan is somewhat known for their rather small living spaces. Is your mention of them based upon unit pricing or price per measurement of area? (I'd say square-foot, but most non-Americans would ask why our feet are shaped so weirdly. :p)