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Discussion Foundry Node advances (TSMC, Samsung Foundry)

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DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
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Samsung is the biggest customer of Qualcomm leading-edge SoCs.
Oh, okay. That's possible. I haven't tracked how many different phones/other products use Snapdragons, but S-series Samsung phones certainly do have Snapdragon options. In that light, Samsung certainly is shooting themselves in the foot.
 

JoeRambo

Golden Member
Jun 13, 2013
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Is this even big deal at all? Apple is sure happy, but Android users are used to SoCs that are like half performance of latest Apple stuff.
 

Ajay

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Jan 8, 2001
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Is this even big deal at all? Apple is sure happy, but Android users are used to SoCs that are like half performance of latest Apple stuff.
IDK. Phones are a weird market. Apple and Samsung are making upwards of 90% of the profits in that market. (Last I checked). Other than their CPUs, Apple makes bank on it’s premium style, and their ecosystem. Samsung has a weaker CPU, but makes bank on equally impressive specs in others areas (like cameras) and compatibility with the rest of the known universe ( ;) ). So, both approaches work.

PS - Also, Apple runs allot of ads!
 
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JoeRambo

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Seems like MediaTek is turning into a serious contender at the high end due to this.
Yeah, forgot about them. They stand to benefit the most from Samsung delays. And honestly in TSMC process "volume" pie charts their share is getting scary real fast.
 

Doug S

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Feb 8, 2020
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I don't get it. Where in the article or the quotes @DisEnchantment posted does it say anything about 3GAE being either gutted OR delayed? The addition of 4LPE doesn't mean 3GAE's status has changed, unless somewhere in the subscribers only part of the article they are separately claiming that.

I assume that the 4LPE/4LPP nodes serve the same purpose for Samsung as the N4 node for TSMC - a refinement of their 5nm not a completely separate process, and thus would not influence when 3GAE arrives.

We've been hearing "H2 2022" for N3 for TSMC pretty consistently over the past year and don't yet know what they mean, since they typically nail that down to a quarter than a half. Does it mean initial volume shipments of N3 wafers in July/August, just in time for iPhones to ship with N3 SoCs in fall 2022? Or is it toward the end of the year, thus forcing Apple to instead use N4 next year? If that happened it might free up some of the early N3 capacity that Apple would otherwise be gobbling up.

So it is possible TSMC may have a 'delay' of its own at 3nm, though IMHO given how tightly TSMC and Apple cooperate on process rollouts my money would be on "later than TSMC and Apple would prefer, but still in time for 'iPhone 14' September shipments". Referring to H2 rather than Q3 may be some element of hedging their bets - maybe they aren't quite as confident with N3's status as they were with N5 and N7 at this stage so they don't want to publicly commit to something they aren't 100% sure they will be able to deliver.
 

JasonLD

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Aug 22, 2017
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If you compare the 2019 projections for 3GAE and the 2021 reality, they don't exactly line up. By a long shot.
Hard to say that is confirmed though. Samsung Foundry site still goes by the original 2019 projections on 3GAE. Being nerfed or not, I really doubt it will be worse than 4LPP.
 
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DisEnchantment

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Mar 3, 2017
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Samsung 3GAE gutted and delayed, 3GAE could be behind 4LPE it looks like.
Seems official now for foundry partners, 3GAE gone, 3GAP is here,
1625679576937.png

From here
 
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DisEnchantment

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Mar 3, 2017
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New updates from TSMC.
I won't copy the slides or detailed info, please subscribe and read there.

In 2021 there will only be a minor additional capacity increase in N7.
In 2022 the capacity for N5 will be more than 3.5x than that from last year. So lots to go around. N5P (HP) scaling only 1.38x big letdown. N5 HD 1.8x for logic.
In 2H22 N3 will come online for the likes of Apple probably. But not so interesting for HPC. Analog and SRAM barely any scaling.



4LPE/5LPP should get closer to N5. I think Samsung will get to fab a bunch of mobile SoCs.
 

DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
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The difference is losing face.
I bet it is the same thing tweaked to fix the issues and renamed accordingly and then marketed as something new.
So 3GAP may get closer to the expected density/performance targets than Samsung projected for 3GAE two years ago?
 

JoeRambo

Golden Member
Jun 13, 2013
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In 2022 the capacity for N5 will be more than 3.5x than that from last year. So lots to go around. N5P (HP) scaling only 1.38x big letdown. N5 HD 1.8x for logic.
In 2H22 N3 will come online for the likes of Apple probably. But not so interesting for HPC. Analog and SRAM barely any scaling.
End of road for FinFET? Just like planar died on 20nm, it seems that GAA is needed to push forward.
 

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