Founding Fathers Actually Wanted Congress To Run Wars

jpeyton

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Text

By ADAM COHEN

The nation is heading toward a constitutional showdown over the Iraq war. Congress is moving closer to passing a bill to limit or end the war, but President Bush insists Congress doesn?t have the power to do it. ?I don?t think Congress ought to be running the war,? he said at a recent press conference. ?I think they ought to be funding the troops.? He added magnanimously: ?I?m certainly interested in their opinion.?

The war is hardly the only area where the Bush administration is trying to expand its powers beyond all legal justification. But the danger of an imperial presidency is particularly great when a president takes the nation to war, something the founders understood well. In the looming showdown, the founders and the Constitution are firmly on Congress?s side.

Given how intent the president is on expanding his authority, it is startling to recall how the Constitution?s framers viewed presidential power. They were revolutionaries who detested kings, and their great concern when they established the United States was that they not accidentally create a kingdom. To guard against it, they sharply limited presidential authority, which Edmund Randolph, a Constitutional Convention delegate and the first attorney general, called ?the foetus of monarchy.?

The founders were particularly wary of giving the president power over war. They were haunted by Europe?s history of conflicts started by self-aggrandizing kings. John Jay, the first chief justice of the United States, noted in Federalist No. 4 that ?absolute monarchs will often make war when their nations are to get nothing by it, but for the purposes and objects merely personal.?

Many critics of the Iraq war are reluctant to suggest that President Bush went into it in anything but good faith. But James Madison, widely known as the father of the Constitution, might have been more skeptical. ?In war, the honors and emoluments of office are to be multiplied; and it is the executive patronage under which they are to be enjoyed,? he warned. ?It is in war, finally, that laurels are to be gathered; and it is the executive brow they are to encircle.?

When they drafted the Constitution, Madison and his colleagues wrote their skepticism into the text. In Britain, the king had the authority to declare war, and raise and support armies, among other war powers. The framers expressly rejected this model and gave these powers not to the president, but to Congress.

The Constitution does make the president ?commander in chief,? a title President Bush often invokes. But it does not have the sweeping meaning he suggests. The framers took it from the British military, which used it to denote the highest-ranking official in a theater of battle. Alexander Hamilton emphasized in Federalist No. 69 that the president would be ?nothing more? than ?first general and admiral,? responsible for ?command and direction? of military forces.

The founders would have been astonished by President Bush?s assertion that Congress should simply write him blank checks for war. They gave Congress the power of the purse so it would have leverage to force the president to execute their laws properly. Madison described Congress?s control over spending as ?the most complete and effectual weapon with which any constitution can arm the immediate representatives of the people, for obtaining a redress of every grievance, and for carrying into effect every just and salutary measure.?

The framers expected Congress to keep the president on an especially short leash on military matters. The Constitution authorizes Congress to appropriate money for an army, but prohibits appropriations for longer than two years. Hamilton explained that the limitation prevented Congress from vesting ?in the executive department permanent funds for the support of an army, if they were even incautious enough to be willing to repose in it so improper a confidence.?

As opinion turns more decisively against the war, the administration is becoming ever more dismissive of Congress?s role. Last week, Under Secretary of Defense Eric Edelman brusquely turned away Senator Hillary Clinton?s questions about how the Pentagon intended to plan for withdrawal from Iraq. "Premature and public discussion of the withdrawal of U.S. forces from Iraq reinforces enemy propaganda that the United States will abandon its allies in Iraq,? he wrote. Mr. Edelman?s response showed contempt not merely for Congress, but for the system of government the founders carefully created.

The Constitution cannot enforce itself. It is, as the constitutional scholar Edwin Corwin famously observed, an ?invitation to struggle? among the branches, but the founders wisely bequeathed to Congress some powerful tools for engaging in the struggle. It is no surprise that the current debate over a deeply unpopular war is arising in the context of a Congressional spending bill. That is precisely what the founders intended.

Members of Congress should not be intimidated into thinking that they are overstepping their constitutional bounds. If the founders were looking on now, it is not Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi who would strike them as out of line, but George W. Bush, who would seem less like a president than a king.

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This is exactly why Congress needs to come down hard and fast on the Bush administration and the war. The White House is continually trying to expand on the power of government with bills and executive orders dressed under the guise of homeland security. If Bush wants to veto every spending bill he doesn't agree with, let him. He can veto to his hearts content as the money runs out and our military is forced home with their gas tanks on empty.
 

mc00

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Jan 25, 2005
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Interesting read.. My money is on our current congress are afraid pulling the fund from the war because criticisms and those voter(parent of the solider) going not vote for them etc.. for me Bush Admin know this so they trash talk all day because congress are afraid.. thats way I see it. People voted for democrat to bring the war to end or balance etc.. seem they not doing that instead stalling or whos know what..
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
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Give me an F?ing break.
The President has been running wars for 200 years.
But since we don?t like Bush we must change this fact?

BTW when is the NY Times going to discover the 2nd amendment? Or maybe they could read some of the founding fathers writings about social charity and write about that.
And people wonder why the Newspapers are losing readers left and right.
 

jpeyton

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Originally posted by: ProfJohn
And people wonder why the Newspapers are losing readers left and right.
Steady declines in print readership and large gains in online readership.

Same with advertising; less print dollars and more online dollars.

That is why "newspapers" as we knew them are in a decline; not because of editorials.

Yet another subject you know nothing about.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
50,759
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Congress has full power to terminate the war effort in Iraq at their discretion. This fact does not change no matter what Bush says.

It is true that certain war powers rest now with the Executive given the advancements in technology over the past couple hundred years. In some cases it is extremely impractical (and decidedly dangerous) to require Congressional approval before any military action can be taken.

The whole "Bush is acting like a king" shtick is way overblown. You want to look at a real power grab by the Executive take a gander at Abraham Lincoln. He was the closest thing to a dictator we ever had in the office.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
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Your thread title ("Founding Fathers Actually Wanted Congress To Run Wars
") is mis-leading and inacurate.

In the body of the article:

'Alexander Hamilton emphasized in Federalist No. 69 that the president would be ?nothing more? than ?first general and admiral,? responsible for ?command and direction? of military forces. "

I.e, the President IS intended to "run" wars.

The article merely reinforces that the power to declare rests Congress. So, nothing has changed, other than perhaps some in Congress attempting to re-write history and deny that they ever gave GWB & Co authorization for the Iraqi "war".

Fern
 

jpeyton

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Originally posted by: Fern
I.e, the President IS intended to "run" wars.
Nope. The President appoints people who appoint other people who appoint other people to run the "day-to-day" war on the ground.

Congress, as the money man, is capable of running the overall war however they see fit, if they had the balls to use their authority. The money man is always the final word.
 

EagleKeeper

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Originally posted by: jpeyton
Originally posted by: Fern
I.e, the President IS intended to "run" wars.
Nope. The President appoints people who appoint other people who appoint other people to run the "day-to-day" war on the ground.

Congress, as the money man, is capable of running the overall war however they see fit, if they had the balls to use their authority. The money man is always the final word.

Congress was not expected to execute the war. Just declare and fund it.

You do not want politicians to micro manage a war.

The problem is that Congress does not have the political guts to defund the war (as others have stated).

 

heartsurgeon

Diamond Member
Aug 18, 2001
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Give me an F?ing break.

Abso-F'ing right!!

What the kids forget (or want to forget) is that Congress VOTED and authorized the war!!!!!!!!

Remember?? And now that they authorized the war, they want it to fail, but they don't want any stain on their hands...

If they vote to defund it, then it brings into question their sense of responsibility for their actions (authorizing the war to begin with).

Every vote carries with it responsibilities..but the Dimocrats are trying to bail out on their previous actions, without accepting any responsibilities for that action either.

Please do not tell me Bush mislead them with bad intelligence reports..because Hilary and others have publicly stated THEY DIDN'T READ THE INTELLIGENCE REPORTS....impossible to be "mislead" when you don't read the documents you are claiming "mislead" you.

Congress controls the funding of the war...don't like it? have the conviction to call for a vote to defund the way. The power of the purse. The Dimocrats don't want to do that. They are afraid of getting blamed for what would happen in Iraq if they did that (and rightly so), and they are afraid such a bill won't get passed anyhow (because they do not have a political mandate dto accomplish it), and they will have such a vote used against them politically in the upcoming elections (and why not!! if that's what they believe)

Yep, the Dim's vote for it, do everything they can to drive down public support for it, and now they want it to end in defeat, but they want to distance themselves from it...

pathetic...just like this silly article

 

Harvey

Administrator<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
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Originally posted by: jpeyton
Founding Fathers Actually Wanted Congress To Run Wars

They also wanted Congress to use the power of impeachment, which is why it's in the Constitution.

Article I, Section 3:

The Senate shall have the sole Power to try all Impeachments. When sitting for that Purpose, they shall be on Oath or Affirmation. When the President of the United States is tried, the Chief Justice shall preside: And no Person shall be convicted without the Concurrence of two thirds of the Members present.

Judgment in Cases of Impeachments shall not extend further than to removal from Office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any Office of honor, Trust, or Profit under the United States, but the Party convicted shall nevertheless be liable and subject to Indictment, Trial, Judgment, and Punishmnet, according to Law.

Article II, Section 4:

The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors.

Treason
  • The administration shredded the rights guaranteed to all Americans under the Constitution.
  • They have intentionally and wrecklessly failed to uphold their oaths of office to defend the Constitution.
  • They have violated U.S. and international laws and treaties to which the United States is bound.
Bribery
  • Halliburton has been charged with numerous counts of fraud and abuse in carrying out their no bid contracts in Iraq.
  • The FDA has been compromised by the pharmaceutical industry to approve drugs prematurely that have subsequently killed patients.
  • Major energy producers have met in secret, unrecorded meetings with the administration to block environmentally sound controls over their operations.

    The list goes on.
Other High Crimes
  • Murder should qualify. As of 7/23/07 10:54 am EDT, 3,633 (and rising) Americans have died in the Bushwhackos' war of LIES.

    Death is a foreseeable, expectable consequence of their illegal acts. Those are the elements of the felony murder statute in every state in the Union and under Federal law.
    rose.gif
    :(
    rose.gif
We can skip the misdeanors.[/list]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
But since we don?t like Bush we must change this fact?

Your Traitor In Chief and his cabal are so blatantly and criminally wrong in so many ways, and they have so blatantly and criminally abused the powers of their offices, making the answer is a resounding YES!. Congress is charged with oversight duties and powers. They should use them, immediately for the sake of the nation.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
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Originally posted by: jpeyton
Originally posted by: Fern
I.e, the President IS intended to "run" wars.
Nope. The President appoints people who appoint other people who appoint other people to run the "day-to-day" war on the ground.

Congress, as the money man, is capable of running the overall war however they see fit, if they had the balls to use their authority. The money man is always the final word.

Nope?

What part of A Hamilton's remarks indicates otherwise, or anything in the body of the article for that matter?

No way around it, the President is suppose to run the war. The inherent folly of seeing a Congress trying to run (or micro manage) a war was forseen by the Founding Fathers.

Does ANYTHING in the current Congressional climate, or functioning of their duties, indicate that they should run a war, any war? (Bwuhahahahah, what a joke))

Fern
 

jpeyton

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Who said anything about micromanaging? Set deadlines, set benchmarks, set the overall tone, or cut off funding.
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
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Time for Congress to defund the war. Let Bush worry about the withdrawal, since he's Commander In Chief.
 

dullard

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May 21, 2001
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This thread is useless without the actual Constitution quote:

Powers of Congress (Act 1, Section 8):
...
To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations;

To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

To provide and maintain a Navy;

To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;
...
To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

Powers of the president (Act 1, Section 2)
The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States; he may require the Opinion, in writing, of the principal Officer in each of the executive Departments, upon any subject relating to the Duties of their respective Offices, and he shall have Power to Grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offenses against the United States, except in Cases of Impeachment.

That is it. So the constitution states that congress should punish Iraq, Congress should declare war, congress should raise and support the armed forces, Congress should suppress and repel insurrections in Iraq and the terrorists that invaded us, and Congress should GOVERN the armed forces. Congress has the power to write any laws needed to accomplish all of the those tasks.

The president's only ability is to execute those laws that congress wrote, and only when Congress first gives the president the order.

If congress doesn't like how the armed forces are governed, including how they are used, all they need to do is to pass laws to alter it. The founding fathers didn't give much war power at all to the president.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
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The heartsurgeon major lie is---What the kids forget (or want to forget) is that Congress VOTED and authorized the war!!!!!!!!

But only after GWB&co. completely distorted and lied about the intel and WMD---our congress was duped.

But rather than play the blame game---we better figure out ways to cut our losses in Iraq---which means that we have to get the international community involved to help guarantee Iraqi stability as we transition from a failed military effort to a diplomatic effort alla Baker Hamilton. It a better world, the President and congress would work together now that its apparent that that the President's plan cannot work.

Sadly we must now conclude the President is the Great Impediment towards any progress in Iraq---and now we must work towards a bi-partisan congressional plan that can generate that veto proof 60 plus votes. That alternative is arbitrary and immediate withdrawal that has its own down side risks. But if we stay---without change---Iraq can melt down anyway.

The only wishful fantasy we might all agree on---GWB should have never lied us into this war that GWB finds himself wrecking his Presidency on.---but he did and that is the rub.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,359
126
Originally posted by: dullard
This thread is useless without the actual Constitution quote:

Powers of Congress (Act 1, Section 8):
...
To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations;

To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

To provide and maintain a Navy;

To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;
...
To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

Powers of the president (Act 1, Section 2)
The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States; he may require the Opinion, in writing, of the principal Officer in each of the executive Departments, upon any subject relating to the Duties of their respective Offices, and he shall have Power to Grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offenses against the United States, except in Cases of Impeachment.

That is it. So the constitution states that congress should punish Iraq, Congress should declare war, congress should raise and support the armed forces, Congress should suppress and repel insurrections in Iraq and the terrorists that invaded us, and Congress should GOVERN the armed forces. Congress has the power to write any laws needed to accomplish all of the those tasks.

The president's only ability is to execute those laws that congress wrote, and only when Congress first gives the president the order.

If congress doesn't like how the armed forces are governed, including how they are used, all they need to do is to pass laws to alter it. The founding fathers didn't give much war power at all to the president.

ssshhhhh dont tell people the Democrats views on the war are the same as the GOP and THAT is why funding hasnt been cut nor more of a leash put on the prez! You'll ruin everything!
 

thraashman

Lifer
Apr 10, 2000
11,112
1,585
126
Originally posted by: heartsurgeon
Give me an F?ing break.

Abso-F'ing right!!

What the kids forget (or want to forget) is that Congress VOTED and authorized the war!!!!!!!!

Remember?? And now that they authorized the war, they want it to fail, but they don't want any stain on their hands...

If they vote to defund it, then it brings into question their sense of responsibility for their actions (authorizing the war to begin with).

Every vote carries with it responsibilities..but the Dimocrats are trying to bail out on their previous actions, without accepting any responsibilities for that action either.

Please do not tell me Bush mislead them with bad intelligence reports..because Hilary and others have publicly stated THEY DIDN'T READ THE INTELLIGENCE REPORTS....impossible to be "mislead" when you don't read the documents you are claiming "mislead" you.

Congress controls the funding of the war...don't like it? have the conviction to call for a vote to defund the way. The power of the purse. The Dimocrats don't want to do that. They are afraid of getting blamed for what would happen in Iraq if they did that (and rightly so), and they are afraid such a bill won't get passed anyhow (because they do not have a political mandate dto accomplish it), and they will have such a vote used against them politically in the upcoming elections (and why not!! if that's what they believe)

Yep, the Dim's vote for it, do everything they can to drive down public support for it, and now they want it to end in defeat, but they want to distance themselves from it...

pathetic...just like this silly article

Gimme a break. I'm tired of this "Congress voted for it Congress voted for it". It's well known that the purpose of the vote was not giving Bush a blank check to invade but to give him the power to invade should Saddam not cooperate. Bush instead gave Saddam no chance to cooperate and just up and invaded. What you're saying is the same as saying the second amendment gave me the right to have a gun which also means I have to right to shoot anyone I feel like.
 

jonks

Lifer
Feb 7, 2005
13,918
20
81
Originally posted by: thraashman
Originally posted by: heartsurgeon
Give me an F?ing break.

Abso-F'ing right!!

What the kids forget (or want to forget) is that Congress VOTED and authorized the war!!!!!!!!

Remember?? And now that they authorized the war, they want it to fail, but they don't want any stain on their hands...

If they vote to defund it, then it brings into question their sense of responsibility for their actions (authorizing the war to begin with).

Every vote carries with it responsibilities..but the Dimocrats are trying to bail out on their previous actions, without accepting any responsibilities for that action either.

Please do not tell me Bush mislead them with bad intelligence reports..because Hilary and others have publicly stated THEY DIDN'T READ THE INTELLIGENCE REPORTS....impossible to be "mislead" when you don't read the documents you are claiming "mislead" you.

Congress controls the funding of the war...don't like it? have the conviction to call for a vote to defund the way. The power of the purse. The Dimocrats don't want to do that. They are afraid of getting blamed for what would happen in Iraq if they did that (and rightly so), and they are afraid such a bill won't get passed anyhow (because they do not have a political mandate dto accomplish it), and they will have such a vote used against them politically in the upcoming elections (and why not!! if that's what they believe)

Yep, the Dim's vote for it, do everything they can to drive down public support for it, and now they want it to end in defeat, but they want to distance themselves from it...

pathetic...just like this silly article

Gimme a break. I'm tired of this "Congress voted for it Congress voted for it". It's well known that the purpose of the vote was not giving Bush a blank check to invade but to give him the power to invade should Saddam not cooperate. Bush instead gave Saddam no chance to cooperate and just up and invaded. What you're saying is the same as saying the second amendment gave me the right to have a gun which also means I have to right to shoot anyone I feel like.

a(b+c) = ac + bc. Politicize that, bitches!

Ok, I suck at math, but assuming a = 1, b = 2, and c = 3, wouldn't this work out to:
1(2+3) = (1)(3) + (2)(3)
1(5) = 3 + 6
5 = 9

And if that's true, you would need to have some form of faith which you considered superior to the science of mathematics which makes you a right wing young earth nutcase.

But like I said, I suck at math.
 

heartsurgeon

Diamond Member
Aug 18, 2001
4,260
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Congress wrote the bill that Congress passed, granting Bush the powers to make the decision to invade Iraq.

If Congress didn't intend to grant him those powers, then they either wrote the Bill incorrectly, or they didn't understand what they were signing (oops!)

and as I've stated, the Dimocrats could not have been "mislead" because they actually DIDN'T read the Intelligence Report they were provided, upon which Bush acted..

Records: Senators who OK'd war didn't read key report

Those who are claiming they were mislead...NEVER READ THE NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE ESTIMATE ON IRAQ...kinda hard to be "mislead" when you never read it!!

For members of Congress to read the report, they had to go to a secure location on Capitol Hill. The Washington Post reported in 2004 that no more than six senators and a handful of House members were logged as reading the document.

Hillary (smartest woman in America) didn't read it, and she voted for it.

It's sad to find out how your heroes are actually screwups isn't it?
they voted for this war, which your buddy Edwards has called a slogan on a bumper sticker.
And explain to me again how a retard like Bush pulled the wool over the eyes of the smartest woman in the world?

here's a list of all the smart people Bush mislead...
How did that idiot from Texas fool so many people???So many Dimocrats???
Some of the loudest voices against the war, voted for it, and without reading the Intelligence report (which included dissenting opinions about what the facts were)....


U.S. Senate Roll Call Votes 107th Congress - 2nd Session

as compiled through Senate LIS by the Senate Bill Clerk under the direction of the Secretary of the Senate

Vote Summary

Question: On the Joint Resolution (H.J.Res. 114 )
Vote Number: 237 Vote Date: October 11, 2002, 12:50 AM
Required For Majority: 1/2 Vote Result: Joint Resolution Passed
Measure Number: H.J.Res. 114
Measure Title: A joint resolution to authorize the use of United States Armed Forces against Iraq.
Vote Counts: YEAs 77
NAYs 23
Vote Summary By Senator Name By Vote Position By Home State

Alphabetical by Senator Name
Akaka (D-HI), Nay
Allard (R-CO), Yea
Allen (R-VA), Yea
Baucus (D-MT), Yea
Bayh (D-IN), Yea
Bennett (R-UT), Yea
Biden (D-DE), Yea
Bingaman (D-NM), Nay
Bond (R-MO), Yea
Boxer (D-CA), Nay
Breaux (D-LA), Yea
Brownback (R-KS), Yea
Bunning (R-KY), Yea
Burns (R-MT), Yea
Byrd (D-WV), Nay
Campbell (R-CO), Yea
Cantwell (D-WA), Yea
Carnahan (D-MO), Yea
Carper (D-DE), Yea
Chafee (R-RI), Nay
Cleland (D-GA), Yea
Clinton (D-NY), Yea
Cochran (R-MS), Yea
Collins (R-ME), Yea
Conrad (D-ND), Nay
Corzine (D-NJ), Nay
Craig (R-ID), Yea
Crapo (R-ID), Yea
Daschle (D-SD), Yea
Dayton (D-MN), Nay
DeWine (R-OH), Yea
Dodd (D-CT), Yea
Domenici (R-NM), Yea
Dorgan (D-ND), Yea
Durbin (D-IL), Nay
Edwards (D-NC), Yea
Ensign (R-NV), Yea
Enzi (R-WY), Yea
Feingold (D-WI), Nay
Feinstein (D-CA), Yea
Fitzgerald (R-IL), Yea
Frist (R-TN), Yea
Graham (D-FL), Nay
Gramm (R-TX), Yea
Grassley (R-IA), Yea
Gregg (R-NH), Yea
Hagel (R-NE), Yea
Harkin (D-IA), Yea
Hatch (R-UT), Yea
Helms (R-NC), Yea
Hollings (D-SC), Yea
Hutchinson (R-AR), Yea
Hutchison (R-TX), Yea
Inhofe (R-OK), Yea
Inouye (D-HI), Nay
Jeffords (I-VT), Nay
Johnson (D-SD), Yea
Kennedy (D-MA), Nay
Kerry (D-MA), Yea
Kohl (D-WI), Yea
Kyl (R-AZ), Yea
Landrieu (D-LA), Yea
Leahy (D-VT), Nay
Levin (D-MI), Nay
Lieberman (D-CT), Yea
Lincoln (D-AR), Yea
Lott (R-MS), Yea
Lugar (R-IN), Yea
McCain (R-AZ), Yea
McConnell (R-KY), Yea
Mikulski (D-MD), Nay
Miller (D-GA), Yea
Murkowski (R-AK), Yea
Murray (D-WA), Nay
Nelson (D-FL), Yea
Nelson (D-NE), Yea
Nickles (R-OK), Yea
Reed (D-RI), Nay
Reid (D-NV), Yea
Roberts (R-KS), Yea
Rockefeller (D-WV), Yea
Santorum (R-PA), Yea
Sarbanes (D-MD), Nay
Schumer (D-NY), Yea
Sessions (R-AL), Yea
Shelby (R-AL), Yea
Smith (R-NH), Yea
Smith (R-OR), Yea
Snowe (R-ME), Yea
Specter (R-PA), Yea
Stabenow (D-MI), Nay
Stevens (R-AK), Yea
Thomas (R-WY), Yea
Thompson (R-TN), Yea
Thurmond (R-SC), Yea
Torricelli (D-NJ), Yea
Voinovich (R-OH), Yea
Warner (R-VA), Yea
Wellstone (D-MN), Nay
Wyden (D-OR), Nay

the truth hurts, doesn;t it?
 
Jun 26, 2007
11,925
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Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
Your title is misleading and so totally wrong!!

If the founding fathers had known about GW then they would most certainly have stripped the executive branch of any powers.

You hear that whhhhrrrrr sound, it's the founding fathers spinning in their graves everytime kindergarten kiddo GW makes a decision.

Seriously, he is like a pre-schooler, banging his fist against the table "I AM THE DECIDER", it's pretty pathetic really.
 

jpeyton

Moderator in SFF, Notebooks, Pre-Built/Barebones
Moderator
Aug 23, 2003
25,375
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Originally posted by: heartsurgeon
the truth hurts, doesn;t it?
Exactly how many of those Democrats were against a timetable for withdrawal?

At least we know one party can learn from its mistakes. The other keeps "turning the corner" on an oval track. :laugh:
 
Jun 26, 2007
11,925
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Originally posted by: heartsurgeon
Congress wrote the bill that Congress passed, granting Bush the powers to make the decision to invade Iraq.

If Congress didn't intend to grant him those powers, then they either wrote the Bill incorrectly, or they didn't understand what they were signing (oops!)

and as I've stated, the Dimocrats could not have been "mislead" because they actually DIDN'T read the Intelligence Report they were provided, upon which Bush acted..

Records: Senators who OK'd war didn't read key report

Those who are claiming they were mislead...NEVER READ THE NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE ESTIMATE ON IRAQ...kinda hard to be "mislead" when you never read it!!

For members of Congress to read the report, they had to go to a secure location on Capitol Hill. The Washington Post reported in 2004 that no more than six senators and a handful of House members were logged as reading the document.

Hillary (smartest woman in America) didn't read it, and she voted for it.

It's sad to find out how your heroes are actually screwups isn't it?
they voted for this war, which your buddy Edwards has called a slogan on a bumper sticker.
And explain to me again how a retard like Bush pulled the wool over the eyes of the smartest woman in the world?

here's a list of all the smart people Bush mislead...
How did that idiot from Texas fool so many people???So many Dimocrats???
Some of the loudest voices against the war, voted for it, and without reading the Intelligence report (which included dissenting opinions about what the facts were)....


U.S. Senate Roll Call Votes 107th Congress - 2nd Session

as compiled through Senate LIS by the Senate Bill Clerk under the direction of the Secretary of the Senate

Vote Summary

Question: On the Joint Resolution (H.J.Res. 114 )
Vote Number: 237 Vote Date: October 11, 2002, 12:50 AM
Required For Majority: 1/2 Vote Result: Joint Resolution Passed
Measure Number: H.J.Res. 114
Measure Title: A joint resolution to authorize the use of United States Armed Forces against Iraq.
Vote Counts: YEAs 77
NAYs 23
Vote Summary By Senator Name By Vote Position By Home State

Alphabetical by Senator Name
Akaka (D-HI), Nay
Allard (R-CO), Yea
Allen (R-VA), Yea
Baucus (D-MT), Yea
Bayh (D-IN), Yea
Bennett (R-UT), Yea
Biden (D-DE), Yea
Bingaman (D-NM), Nay
Bond (R-MO), Yea
Boxer (D-CA), Nay
Breaux (D-LA), Yea
Brownback (R-KS), Yea
Bunning (R-KY), Yea
Burns (R-MT), Yea
Byrd (D-WV), Nay
Campbell (R-CO), Yea
Cantwell (D-WA), Yea
Carnahan (D-MO), Yea
Carper (D-DE), Yea
Chafee (R-RI), Nay
Cleland (D-GA), Yea
Clinton (D-NY), Yea
Cochran (R-MS), Yea
Collins (R-ME), Yea
Conrad (D-ND), Nay
Corzine (D-NJ), Nay
Craig (R-ID), Yea
Crapo (R-ID), Yea
Daschle (D-SD), Yea
Dayton (D-MN), Nay
DeWine (R-OH), Yea
Dodd (D-CT), Yea
Domenici (R-NM), Yea
Dorgan (D-ND), Yea
Durbin (D-IL), Nay
Edwards (D-NC), Yea
Ensign (R-NV), Yea
Enzi (R-WY), Yea
Feingold (D-WI), Nay
Feinstein (D-CA), Yea
Fitzgerald (R-IL), Yea
Frist (R-TN), Yea
Graham (D-FL), Nay
Gramm (R-TX), Yea
Grassley (R-IA), Yea
Gregg (R-NH), Yea
Hagel (R-NE), Yea
Harkin (D-IA), Yea
Hatch (R-UT), Yea
Helms (R-NC), Yea
Hollings (D-SC), Yea
Hutchinson (R-AR), Yea
Hutchison (R-TX), Yea
Inhofe (R-OK), Yea
Inouye (D-HI), Nay
Jeffords (I-VT), Nay
Johnson (D-SD), Yea
Kennedy (D-MA), Nay
Kerry (D-MA), Yea
Kohl (D-WI), Yea
Kyl (R-AZ), Yea
Landrieu (D-LA), Yea
Leahy (D-VT), Nay
Levin (D-MI), Nay
Lieberman (D-CT), Yea
Lincoln (D-AR), Yea
Lott (R-MS), Yea
Lugar (R-IN), Yea
McCain (R-AZ), Yea
McConnell (R-KY), Yea
Mikulski (D-MD), Nay
Miller (D-GA), Yea
Murkowski (R-AK), Yea
Murray (D-WA), Nay
Nelson (D-FL), Yea
Nelson (D-NE), Yea
Nickles (R-OK), Yea
Reed (D-RI), Nay
Reid (D-NV), Yea
Roberts (R-KS), Yea
Rockefeller (D-WV), Yea
Santorum (R-PA), Yea
Sarbanes (D-MD), Nay
Schumer (D-NY), Yea
Sessions (R-AL), Yea
Shelby (R-AL), Yea
Smith (R-NH), Yea
Smith (R-OR), Yea
Snowe (R-ME), Yea
Specter (R-PA), Yea
Stabenow (D-MI), Nay
Stevens (R-AK), Yea
Thomas (R-WY), Yea
Thompson (R-TN), Yea
Thurmond (R-SC), Yea
Torricelli (D-NJ), Yea
Voinovich (R-OH), Yea
Warner (R-VA), Yea
Wellstone (D-MN), Nay
Wyden (D-OR), Nay

the truth hurts, doesn;t it?

We know where the weapons are, it's 45 minute threat, do you want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud, they have aluminum tubes only suited for enriching uranium, they have been trying to get uranium from Niger.

They were not entitled to any of the classified info on the subject, only the lies that they were fed.

So the TRUTH doesn't hurt but the LIES did.