Found "Not Guilty" - Judge Decides Otherwise and Adds to Sentence - Appeal Rejected

Dec 10, 2005
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http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/14pdf/13-10026_bqm1.pdf

A jury convicted petitioners Joseph Jones, Desmond Thurston, and Antwuan Ball of distributing very small amounts of crack cocaine, and acquitted them of conspiring to distribute drugs. The sentencing judge, however,found that they had engaged in the charged conspiracy and, relying largely on that finding, imposed sentences that petitioners say were many times longer than those the Guidelines would otherwise have recommended.

The SCOTUS recently rejected this appeal (1 justice short of being placed on the docket). Who knew that a judge can decide to use what you're not found guilty of in order to add to your sentence? The deck is quite stacked against you if you're ever a defendant in a criminal case. I don't know the full facts of the case beyond what's written in the dissenting opinion for rejection of the case, but it's quite disturbing.
 

theeedude

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
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Drug case = vote to acquit, because the sentence is likely to be a bigger crime than whatever the defendant is charged with.
 
Dec 10, 2005
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Where is Oldgamer?

More details, please.

You want a 10 page dissertation? The dissenting opinion is only about 2 real pages long and seems to cover the basics, but some googling, I found this just for you:

a letter from a juror to the judge about the sentencing:

May 16, 2008

The Honorable Richard W. Roberts
United States District Judge
333 Constitution Avenue, NW
Washington, DC 20001


Dear Judge Roberts:


I write because I recently saw a press release from the US Attorney’s Office which states that Gregory Bell and Joseph Jones were sentenced to 16 years and 15 years, respectively, “for their roles in this case”. It also states that Antwuan Ball, Desmond Thurston, and David Wilson “each face up to 40 years imprisonment for the narcotics crimes for which they were convicted.”


Can this be true? We as a jury found these individuals guilty of somewhere around 20 instances of selling drugs, but as I remember it, most of these were very small amounts. And this was over a period of nearly 10 years. Now I’m not a lawyer, but after 30 years of living in the District, I believe people selling small amounts of crack on the street usually end up with probation or only a year or two in prison if they have a previous offense.


The District Attorney’s press release states that “The government presented evidence that [these individuals] were members of a crew that had engaged in a series of crimes, including crack cocaine dealing, armed robbery, attempted murder, and murder…for over a decade”. I don’t feel that statement is accurate. There was really no evidence presented at all that these individuals operated as a “crew” which is why we, the jury, found them not guilty of the conspiracy and racketeering charges. Sure, they knew one another but most people do who grow up in the same community. Every government witness without exception spoke of how contested a market it was and how the defendants often competed vigorously with one another for sales. And in the end, we have six defendants guilty of about 20 drug charges over a 10-year period. Ten years.


As you remember, Judge Roberts, we spent 8 months listening to the evidence, filling countless court-supplied notebooks, making summaries of those notes, and even creating card catalogues to keep track of all the witnesses and their statements. We deliberated for over 2 months, 4 days a week, 8 hours a day. We went over everything in detail. If any of our fellow jurors had a doubt, a question, an idea, or just wanted something repeated, we all stopped and made time. Conspiracy? A crew? With the evidence the prosecutor presented, not one among us could see it. Racketeering? We dismissed that even more quickly. No conspiracy shown but more importantly, where was the money? No big bank accounts. Mostly old cars. Small apartments or living with relatives.


It seems to me a tragedy that one is asked to serve on a jury, serves, but then finds their work may not be given the credit it deserves. We, the jury, all took our charge seriously. We virtually gave up our private lives to devote our time to the cause of justice, and it is a very noble cause as you know, sir. We looked across the table at one another in respect and in sympathy. We listened, we thought, we argued, we got mad and left the room, we broke, we rested that charge until tomorrow, we went on. Eventually, through every hour-long tape of a single drug sale, hundreds of pages of transcripts, ballistics evidence, and photos, we delivered to you our verdicts.


What does it say to our contribution as jurors when we see our verdicts, in my personal view, not given their proper weight. It appears to me that these defendants are being sentenced not on the charges for which they have been found guilty but on the charges for which the District Attorney’s office would have liked them to have been found guilty. Had they shown us hard evidence, that might have been the outcome, but that was not the case. That is how you instructed your jury in this case to perform and for good reason.


So now these individuals who were found guilty of selling drugs face a total of 151 years in prison. At $23,000 per year (Office of US Courts estimate) the total cost to taxpayers is just under $3.5 million. And that is on top of the $1 million the trial cost (my rough estimate). What do we as taxpayers get for that?


I’m sure we all agree that these men sold drugs and did so from a very early age. But they are older now, almost middle-aged. Many people testifying on their behalf noted most had real jobs, families of their own, and had left the drug trade. One had moved to North Carolina with his family and worked in a steel mill two years before he was even arrested. Another is involved in community service to encourage District youth to stop selling drugs and find jobs and he has received widespread recognition for doing so.


At $23,000 a year for each of them, I would think we could find some better way to keep these people from again selling drugs and let them return to their community and become a force for change. I hope you can find a way to make that happen, Judge Roberts. Please feel free to share this with anyone who might assist you in this process. I will share this information with my fellow jurors in case they would like to offer their own opinions.


My best wishes to you and your staff over the upcoming summer, and thank you.

Sincerely,

(Juror #6),


http://blog.simplejustice.us/2014/03/18/play-ball-who-cares-if-youre-aquitted/


The general premise is the judge decided to sentence based on his own fact finding and not strictly on what the jury convicted on. But probably because it was below the statutory maximum (which was 5-40 years), the Appeals court upheld the sentence, even though it is far longer than people convicted of similar crimes and basically allows a judge to decide his own facts in the sentencing phase.
 

theeedude

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
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Wait, what? After having the prosecutor to waste 8 months of their lives over a victim-less crime, they voluntarily wasted 2 months deliberating afterwards? Just acquit in 5 minutes and go home. Otherwise you risk your verdict being used to send someone to jail for much longer than you think they should serve, even if you agree with criminalizing drugs.
 

drebo

Diamond Member
Feb 24, 2006
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15 years for selling drugs?

WTF kind of effed up country do we live in?

If you're not willing to put a cap in them right then and there, they should pay a fine and be set free. Prison just fucks them over even worse than they already have been. Prison does not rehabillitate people. Our "justice" is worse than useless.
 

pcgeek11

Lifer
Jun 12, 2005
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Do you know how many childrens lives are fucked up by drugs?

They were convicted of distributing drugs. And acquitted of conspiring to distribute drugs. That doesn't make much sense to me.

Don't do the crime if you can't do the time.
They were convicted of twenty drug sales. How many do you really think was completed over 10 years?
 
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theeedude

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
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Do you know how many childrens lives are fucked up by drugs?

They were convicted of distributing drugs. And acquitted of conspiring to distribute drugs. That doesn't make much sense to me.

Don't do the crime if you can't do the time.
They were convicted of twenty drug sales. How many do you really think was completed over 10 years?

Drugs don't fuck up people, people fuck up people.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
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Do you know how many childrens lives are fucked up by drugs?

They were convicted of distributing drugs. And acquitted of conspiring to distribute drugs. That doesn't make much sense to me.

Don't do the crime if you can't do the time.
They were convicted of twenty drug sales. How many do you really think was completed over 10 years?

Do you know why its easier for kids to get drugs, including hard drugs, than a fucking 6 pack of beer?

Was he convicted of selling drugs to kids?

Otherwise, why do you believe that the government should own our bodies? Along those lines, why aren't people like you advocating that McDonalds and most other fast food be made illegal? They are a greater burden on our society than blow and weed.
 
Dec 10, 2005
27,965
12,509
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Do you know how many childrens lives are fucked up by drugs?

They were convicted of distributing drugs. And acquitted of conspiring to distribute drugs. That doesn't make much sense to me.

Don't do the crime if you can't do the time.
They were convicted of twenty drug sales. How many do you really think was completed over 10 years?

They should be sentenced on the charges of what the jury found them guilty of, not what the judge also thought they were guilty of (but acquitted on) in addition to what the jury found them guilty of.

This is a big problem when it comes to rights in the criminal justice system. Lots of seedy individuals pass through it, so we tend to turn a blind eye towards the government when it decides to trample people - these tactics set precedent for new boundaries of what judges and prosecutors allow/do and can come back to haunt us all. We should have a justice system based on the rule of law, even if it means that some jerk-offs get lighter sentences than they should.
 
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zanejohnson

Diamond Member
Nov 29, 2002
7,054
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i just wanted to answer this question for someone.....who is obviously ignorant.


Darwin asks "Do you know why its easier for kids to get drugs, including hard drugs, than a fucking 6 pack of beer?"


which was sort of a rhetorical question, but everyone needs to understan this.

the reason is beacuse WE'VE CREATED THE BLACK MARKET FOR IT WITH THIS RIDICULOUS "WAR ON DRUGS", AND "WE'RE LOSING."

understand?
 

Subyman

Moderator <br> VC&G Forum
Mar 18, 2005
7,876
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i just wanted to answer this question for someone.....who is obviously ignorant.


Darwin asks "Do you know why its easier for kids to get drugs, including hard drugs, than a fucking 6 pack of beer?"


which was sort of a rhetorical question, but everyone needs to understan this.

the reason is beacuse WE'VE CREATED THE BLACK MARKET FOR IT WITH THIS RIDICULOUS "WAR ON DRUGS", AND "WE'RE LOSING."

understand?

Eh, it was easier to get beer when I was in high school.

As with most things in P&N, the actual case is much more complex than "judge dredd says screw the jury."
 

alcoholbob

Diamond Member
May 24, 2005
6,380
448
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Do you know why its easier for kids to get drugs, including hard drugs, than a fucking 6 pack of beer?

Was he convicted of selling drugs to kids?

Otherwise, why do you believe that the government should own our bodies? Along those lines, why aren't people like you advocating that McDonalds and most other fast food be made illegal? They are a greater burden on our society than blow and weed.

No, but I bet he thinks all the laws he supports shouldn't apply when it comes to him. That's almost universally the case among people of his creed. We call them limousine liberals.
 
Dec 30, 2004
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You want a 10 page dissertation? The dissenting opinion is only about 2 real pages long and seems to cover the basics, but some googling, I found this just for you:

a letter from a juror to the judge about the sentencing:




http://blog.simplejustice.us/2014/03/18/play-ball-who-cares-if-youre-aquitted/


The general premise is the judge decided to sentence based on his own fact finding and not strictly on what the jury convicted on. But probably because it was below the statutory maximum (which was 5-40 years), the Appeals court upheld the sentence, even though it is far longer than people convicted of similar crimes and basically allows a judge to decide his own facts in the sentencing phase.

it's cute that everyone thinks judges owe some debt to society to have some higher moral code such as "the law" than their own conscience and prejudices when they're offering sentences.
 

Sinsear

Diamond Member
Jan 13, 2007
6,439
80
91
i just wanted to answer this question for someone.....who is obviously ignorant.


Darwin asks "Do you know why its easier for kids to get drugs, including hard drugs, than a fucking 6 pack of beer?"


which was sort of a rhetorical question, but everyone needs to understan this.

the reason is beacuse WE'VE CREATED THE BLACK MARKET FOR IT WITH THIS RIDICULOUS "WAR ON DRUGS", AND "WE'RE LOSING."

understand?


You're proof positive that drugs fuck people up.
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,393
8,552
126
Do you know how many childrens lives are fucked up by drugs?

They were convicted of distributing drugs. And acquitted of conspiring to distribute drugs. That doesn't make much sense to me.

Don't do the crime if you can't do the time.
They were convicted of twenty drug sales. How many do you really think was completed over 10 years?

the question isn't how many do you think, the question is how many is there evidence for? and apparently, that was 20. over 10 years. by 6 guys. so 1 drug sale every 3rd year for each. decades of prison for that? really?
 

SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
17,305
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Do you know how many childrens lives are fucked up by drugs?

They were convicted of distributing drugs. And acquitted of conspiring to distribute drugs. That doesn't make much sense to me.

Don't do the crime if you can't do the time.
They were convicted of twenty drug sales. How many do you really think was completed over 10 years?


Do you know how many children's lives are fucked up by alcohol or tobacco? Or from obesity from unhealthy foods? I honestly don't believe drug users will increase in number (except for 'lighter' drugs like pot smokers) if it is legalized. Drugs are widely available already, if someone wants to do them they are easy to get. Making it legal or at least de-criminalized will save billions of dollars. It is time to end the useless and expensive war on drugs, if it made a difference maybe an argument in it's favor could be made, but drugs are everywhere. They're just expensive to tax payers the way the laws are now.
 

theeedude

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
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The big question is why did the more liberal SCOTUS judges reject this case?
The big question for me is why conservative justices in majority who keep inventing new rights for corporations have completely given up on human rights.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
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Following the pseudo-reasoning of our resident Righties & the drug warrior SCOTUS, the Judge could have found them guilty even if the Jury found them innocent of all charges.

Why bother with Juries at all?