Forza 2 Enduro Race Series - the all new bring it (with "FLAIR")

Page 4 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

Kabob

Lifer
Sep 5, 2004
15,248
0
76
Originally posted by: Supermercado
I'm still saying that we should allow any upgrades we want, including drive train. Unless that's a restriction that real race teams have, I don't think we should limit ourselves to one drive train. From a strategic standpoint, having a different drive train on different tracks could be beneficial. If we go with Ty's idea of having a spec tire, running sport tires is probably okay.

As for the actual cars themselves, it seems like we're a little short on cars. Just at a glance... no BMW, Porsche, Cadillac, etc. There's a lot of makers with good cars that aren't represented. I honestly think I'm coming down on the side of not having a set car list to pick from, it just has to meet the required PI limitations each race. I'm okay with a spec tire but I think I'm against having a set car list.

Many racing series do not allow AWD. This is why cars like the Porsche 997 GT3, Lamborghini Gallardo GT3 (not street legal), and the new Audi R8 GT3 exist, they all take AWD platforms and move them to RWD. Now, some series (Speed World Challenge I believe, and a few others) allow AWD, but I believe it's only if that's your original drivetrain, drivetrain swaps (at least swaps that change your drive wheels) I don't believe are allowed by many (unless, as I mentioned, it moves you out of AWD for series that do not allow it).

Here's a list I whipped up for blowfish of a few car ideas (slightly updated to include 2 DLC cars):

Once again, HP, weight, and tires are the three things you need to match. Either put a spec tire or make everyone use race tires, that adds a certain amount of PI.

A Subaru Impreza WRX STi with Avon race tires, 300 hp, and ~ 2500 lbs is going to be similar to a Ferrari with the same stats in Forza. Sure, one will take off faster and one will have a faster top speed, but they'll be similar. They can't make every car 100% realistic in it's handling charcteristics.

So I say make a car list, give it a lil' variety, and put limits/ranges/caps on certain parts/stats. The guy who won the WTCC series on the Forza Central boards used a car that was "slower" than the other options, but he just like how it handled.

In my mind, I'd like to see a range of coupes and sedans that are relatively evenly matched.

Say...(I can't see PI's so these may be way off base):

Acura RL type S
Audi S4 '04
Audi S5 '07
BMW M3 E46
BMW M3 E92
Caddilac CTS-V
Dodge Charger SRT8
Ford Mustang GT
Lexus IS350
Mercedes C32 AMG
Mercedes CLK55 AMG
Mitsubishi Lancer Evo *
Nissan Silvia Spec-R S15
Pontiac GTO
Saab 9-3 Aero
Saturn ION Red Line
Scion tC
Subaru Impreza WRX STi ('04 or '05)
Subaru Legacy B4 2.0 GT
Volkswagon Bora VR6
Volvo S60R

Just reading off a list, so I can't see these cars to tell exactly what they all are, just a quick list.

Or heck, do what my other option was the other day, Grand Touring cars (typically 2 door spots cars). Something like:

Aston Martin DB9 Coupe
BMW M3 E46
Caddilac CTS-V
Chrysler Crossfire SRT6
Ferrari 575 Maranello
Ferrari 612 Scaglietti
Infinity G35 Coupe
Maserati GranSport
Maserati GranTurismo
Panoz Esperante GTLM
Toyota Supra RZ
TVR Tuscan S

Both are just rough lists, once again I don't know the PI of those nor the exact classifications (I'm sure I have some sports cars in the Grand Touring group).

I'd love to add Porsche to that list as well but (IMHO) there's no decent car that I can make to A820 that'll have all the aero bits.
 

Supermercado

Diamond Member
Jan 18, 2002
5,893
0
76
I think I like the idea of the grand touring cars a lot. It seems like there'd be some great variety in those cars and I think it'd have been fun to run that for a regular race night. Over the course of a full series, I think it'd be a blast.
 

GCS

Diamond Member
Oct 16, 1999
4,898
0
71
Originally posted by: Supermercado
I think I like the idea of the grand touring cars a lot. It seems like there'd be some great variety in those cars and I think it'd have been fun to run that for a regular race night. Over the course of a full series, I think it'd be a blast.

I like the GT list just fine myself and I am pretty sure I already know which one I would drive LOL. Are there other GT cars to consider in this list?

Greg



EDIT --- FINAL item I would like to add. I would (after much discussion with some of you) like to make this a TEAM CHALLENGE ENDURO SERIES.

Races would still be run as a Career so you get credits & True Skill rankings BUT the points scored by you and your teammate will combine each week to the end. Winning team will get the credits.

Your team must drive the same car (it can have different parts on each but the car must be the same). You and your teammate will test, tune, practice together. You can lay out strategies for your team combined and work together to achieve your goal. Assist one another pit strategies, laps etc.

Cars must be painted to match your teammate in race style with # plates as already mentioned. Car colors in the series should be different colors -- i.e. no 2 teams should be B&W etc. This should keep things clear as to who is on your team at all times.



Yay or Nay??

Greg

 

QuikWgn

Senior member
Mar 10, 2004
647
0
0
forums.nasioc.com
I compiled the car data from the list real quick. here's what we have:
Chrysler Crossfire SRT6 (2006) C537 FR 210Hp 214Tq 3142lbs 4.9/3.4/3.5/3.8

Dodge Stealth R/T Turbo (1996) C509 FA 320hp 312tq 3671lbs 5.6/3.7/3.6/3.9

Eagle Talon TSi Turbo [1998] D354 FA 210hp 214tq 3142lbs 4.9/3.4/3.5/3.8

Ferrari F355 Challenge [1998] A800 MR 375hp 368tq 2900lbs 5.9/5.8/5.4/5.4

Ford FocusSport SVT Focus (2003) A736 FF 334hp 340tq 2250lbs 5.6/5.0/4.3/4.4 (Tuner Model)

Honda Mugen Integra Type-R (2002) C514 FF 217hp 152tq 2500lbs 4.0/3.8/4.7/4.7 (Tuner Model)

Mini Cooper-S (2003) D248 FF 163hp 162tq 2685lbs 3.7/3.1/3.7/3.8

Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution VI GSR (1999) C527 FA 285hp 260tq 2998lbs 5.0/4.3/3.8/3.9
Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution VIII GSR (2004) C536 FA 300hp 280tq 3086lbs 4.9/4.5/3.8/4.0
Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution VIII MR (2004) B573 FA 325hp 332tq 3086lbs 5.1/5.0/3.8/4.0
Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution IX GT (2006) B567 FA 320hp 306tq 3064lbs 5.1/4.8/3.8/4.0
Mitsubishi MINE'S CP9A Lancer Evolution VI RS (1999) B610 FA 404hp 292tq 2998lbs 5.7/5.5/4.2/4.39(Tuner Model)
Mitsubishi Sparco Lancer Evolution VIII (2003) A797 FA 450hp 411tq 2900lbs 5.7/6.9/4.9/4.7 (Tuner Model)

Saturn ION Red Line (2006) C495 FR 260hp 258tq 2990lbs 4.4/4.1/4.3/4.4

Subaru Impreza WRX STi (J-Spec) (2004) C529 FA 301hp 317tq 3153lbs 5.3/4.8/3.6/3.9
Impreza WRX STi (J-Spec) (2005) C518 301hp 317tq 3218lbs 5.2/4.7/3.6/3.8

IMO the mix of compact vs midsize is disparate and the Ferarri is out of place. I think either moving to a "Sport Compact" type of grouping or more to midsize "Touring Sedan" grouping. I can whip up whatever you need as I have the car list in front of me in Excel.




 

Kabob

Lifer
Sep 5, 2004
15,248
0
76
I whipped that list up off the top of my head, dunno if all of those qualify. I know there's a few more GT cars (Jaguar XK for sure, maybe the Mustang GT), not sure how many in a decent PI rating though. OSJ, since you're home (and bored, surely!) go to "buy a car" and sort and see what Forza classifies as a "Grand Touring" car (if they do).

Pulled from Wikipedia:
A grand tourer (Italian: gran turismo), (initialised GT), is a high-performance automobile designed for long-distance driving. Any such car could be considered a grand tourer, but the traditional and most common body style is the two-door coupé with either a two-seat or a 2+2 seat arrangement. The name comes from the Grand Tour.

Grand tourers differ from typical sports cars (e.g. Lotus Elise, Porsche 911) in that they are usually larger, heavier (sometimes more than 3,500 lb (1,600 kg)), and tend to make less compromise in comfort for the sake of driving ability. For this reason, most have front-mounted engines, which leave more space for the cabin than mid-mounted engines. They tend to have softer suspensions to provide good ride quality. They also provide bigger storage space and more accessories. However, grand tourers do have similarities with sports cars, such as their use mainly of rear- or four-wheel drive, and the term sports car may be used to describe a car with grand touring qualities. Very high-performance grand tourers, such as the Aston Martin DB9, Ferrari 599 GTB Fiorano, HSV GTS, Nissan GT-R and the Mercedes-Benz SLR McLaren, may be considered to be supercars.

Because of their powerful engines, grand tourers can still compete with many sports cars in top-speed and acceleration. However, in terms of handling they are a magnitude below sports cars, because of their weight and softer suspension. Grand tourers excel at high speed, long distance travel, or races, and make more practical daily drivers than sports cars.

In certain professional motorsport classifications, such as the Grand Touring categories promoted by the FIA, the GT car is defined as "an open or closed automobile which has no more than one door on each side and a minimum of two seats situated one on each side of the longitudinal centre line of the car; these two seats must be crossed by the same transversal plane. This car must be able to be used perfectly legally on the open road, and adapted for racing on circuits or closed courses."

Using the above definition, it is still valid to place sport cars such as the Corvette and the 911 in the grand touring category since they do contain many, if not all, the amenities of a grand tourer. However, this weakness in motorsport classification sometimes blurs the line of what is considered a true production grand tourer, and may lead to mis-classification.

They have a list of "modern GT cars" that I don't exactly agree with here.

I do wish we could get the Ferrari 599 GTB Fiorano in there, but I think it starts in S class.

Also, a BIG "yay" from me for teams.
 

Supermercado

Diamond Member
Jan 18, 2002
5,893
0
76
Originally posted by: GCS
EDIT --- FINAL item I would like to add. I would (after much discussion with some of you) like to make this a TEAM CHALLENGE ENDURO SERIES.

Races would still be run as a Career so you get credits & True Skill rankings BUT the points scored by you and your teammate will combine each week to the end. Winning team will get the credits.

Your team must drive the same car (it can have different parts on each but the car must be the same). You and your teammate will test, tune, practice together. You can lay out strategies for your team combined and work together to achieve your goal. Assist one another pit strategies, laps etc.

Cars must be painted to match your teammate in race style with # plates as already mentioned. Car colors in the series should be different colors -- i.e. no 2 teams should be B&W etc. This should keep things clear as to who is on your team at all times.



Yay or Nay??

Greg
I'm 100% on board with the team concept (as you well know).
 

Supermercado

Diamond Member
Jan 18, 2002
5,893
0
76
There's no touring or grand touring or anything like that body style in the sort. The Ferrari 575 and 612 for instance are both classified as production coupes. The 599 starts at A843 and if the 575 is in the list, the 599 has to be as well since it replaces the 575 in Ferrari's stable.

My only concern with the grand touring cars is that it becomes a heavyweight series.
 

Kabob

Lifer
Sep 5, 2004
15,248
0
76
Not necessarily. The "production" GT cars are heavy, but in the racing series they go through the same lightening process that all race cars do.

EX, the Champion Racing Audi RS6 won the Speed World GT series several times, it was around 600 horsepower and I wanna say 2500 lbs after it was race-prepped. The stock RS6 is closer to 4000 lbs.

So yes, the cars in stock form are heavy cars, but you don't race a production car.

*edit* oh, and take a look at this picture...I feel sorry for the guy in the back! Did he run over another car?



*edit x2* This entire process could be SO much easier if we just said "R4 cars" since most of the R4 cars come straight from the Speed World Challenge (Audi S4 & RS6, most of the Porsche GT3 cups, the Vipers, the CTS-V, the NSX, most of the Z06's, and I think even the Subaru). Only one's I'm not sure about are the Mustang (I'd assume it is) and the Volvo. :p

Not saying I wanna race R4's (it'd be fun but you can't really upgrade 'em for each track).
 

QuikWgn

Senior member
Mar 10, 2004
647
0
0
forums.nasioc.com
Something like this for GT Touring:
Aston Martin 2001 V12 Vanquish
Audi 2003 RS 6 Sedan
Ferrari 2005 612 Scaglietti
Cadillac 2004 CTS-V
Pontiac 2004 GTO
Vauxhall 2005 Monaro VXR
Jaguar 2007 XK Coupe
Acura 2006 RL A-Spec
Mercedes 2003 CLK55 AMG Coupe
Volvo 2004 S60 R
 

Supermercado

Diamond Member
Jan 18, 2002
5,893
0
76
Well, what I meant was that a lot of the cars start off heavy and close to 850 so there's not much room to un-production them without going closer to S class. The Fiorano for instance, is close to 3500 pounds and 843. There's no way you can do any weight reduction on that at all and not go to S class. Heck, that car wouldn't even be eligible since it can't come down to the minimum PI you'd attain if you won every race. That's something we'll have to keep in mind, too. All the cars need to be able to go up and down in the prescribed PI range.
 

Kabob

Lifer
Sep 5, 2004
15,248
0
76
Why do I feel like I'm raping the car list with my ideas? :p

Yeah, I mentioned the Fionaro directly saying it couldn't compete, it's PI is too high. Most of the others (AFAIK) are lower. The Maserati GT for example, I wanna say it starts out at around B650 or so and 3800 lbs, easy to lower.

Oh, and we might wanna throw the BMW M3 E92 into the list (although it has no aero parts)
 

GCS

Diamond Member
Oct 16, 1999
4,898
0
71
And this is kinda why I was hoping to work from C or D class cars to start with.

Hmmm .... still not sure what to do here.

Greg
 

Kabob

Lifer
Sep 5, 2004
15,248
0
76
Some of the listed cars are low B's I believe, dunno about C's.

What about your opinion on teams Queasy?
 

QuikWgn

Senior member
Mar 10, 2004
647
0
0
forums.nasioc.com
Make it like fishing with a "slot limit". You must pick a C Class car, that unmodified weighs 2600-3200lbs, max stock HP below 350, 2 or 4 doors, but must seat 4 adults, no coupes or convertibles, must be capable of using all 3 Forza aero components, using Spec tire "X", anything goes up to A820? I mean I can make lists all day to provide whatever Qualifying combos you'd like.
 

Queasy

Moderator<br>Console Gaming
Aug 24, 2001
31,796
2
0
Originally posted by: kabob983
Some of the listed cars are low B's I believe, dunno about C's.

What about your opinion on teams Queasy?

B's are fine. I just don't want to start out with supercars or anything.

Teams are fun but I'd like to start out solo first.
 

Kabob

Lifer
Sep 5, 2004
15,248
0
76
Originally posted by: Queasy
B's are fine. I just don't want to start out with supercars or anything.

Teams are fun but I'd like to start out solo first.

Yeah, I understand, that's the tricky part about the cars is getting a decent selection but make sure they'll all fit the rules for the build while being reasobably balanced...tiz iffy. I don't know the PI of any of the cars I listed (just pulled the cars either out of my head or off of the car list on the FC forums), I tried to pick cars that I thought were of low(ish) PI's to allow for build changes, although I'm sure there's a few that are higher (I think the TVR Tuscon S is an "A").

Looks like we're tied at 2-2 with teams. We can run 2 sets of points together as it is, have a team champion as well as an individual champion.

Originally posted by: QuikWgn
Make it like fishing with a "slot limit". You must pick a C Class car, that unmodified weighs 2600-3200lbs, max stock HP below 350, 2 or 4 doors, but must seat 4 adults, no coupes or convertibles, must be capable of using all 3 Forza aero components, using Spec tire "X", anything goes up to A820? I mean I can make lists all day to provide whatever Qualifying combos you'd like.

Yeah, but then you're creating a very narrow window...the problem I have with many of the C and most of the D cars is alot of 'em just aren't very interesting (as fast as it can be, doing hot laps with the Saturn ION just isn't all that compelling). Sure, I'd love to have the WRX and some of the Evo's in there, but GT cars are all pretty unique IMHO, one of the reasons I like 'em.
 

GCS

Diamond Member
Oct 16, 1999
4,898
0
71
Aston Martin DB9 Coupe A710 FR 457hp 420tq 3770lbs 6.5/4.4/4.0/4.3
BMW M3 E46 B578 FR 333hp 262tq 3415lbs 5.7/4.5/4.1/4.2
Caddilac CTS-V C549 400hp 395tq 3907lbs 6.4/4.5/3.6/3.8
Chrysler Crossfire SRT6 C537 FR 210Hp 214Tq 3142lbs 4.9/3.4/3.5/3.8
Ferrari 575 Maranello A751 FR 515hp 434tq 3815lbs 7.4/5.6/4.3/4.6
Ferrari 612 Scaglietti A739 FR 540hp 434tq 4123lbs 7.0/5.3/4.3/4.5
Infinity G35 Coupe C453 FR 280hp 270tq 3485lbs 5.7/3.9/3.6/3.9
Maserati GranSport B631 FR 390hp 333tq 3682lbs 5.9/4.8/4.1/4.3
Maserati GranTurismo B610 FR 405hp 339tq 4145lbs 6.0/4.4/4.0/4.3(DLC Car)
Panoz Esperante GTLM B695 FR 420hp 390tq 3384lbs 6.5/5.0/4.1/4.4
Toyota Supra RZ B555 FR 326hp 315tq 3285lbs 5.8/4.4/3.8/4.1
TVR Tuscan S A751 FR 380hp 320tq 2425lbs 6.6/5.6/4.2/4.4
 

QuikWgn

Senior member
Mar 10, 2004
647
0
0
forums.nasioc.com
I think the Caddy/Supra/G35 would be the cars to beat in A820 trim. just using the mid level weight reduction is going to eat up most of your PI room on the Euro cars except the BMW and the TVR.
 

Kabob

Lifer
Sep 5, 2004
15,248
0
76
Originally posted by: GCS
Aston Martin DB9 Coupe A710 FR 457hp 420tq 3770lbs 6.5/4.4/4.0/4.3
BMW M3 E46 B578 FR 333hp 262tq 3415lbs 5.7/4.5/4.1/4.2
Caddilac CTS-V C549 400hp 395tq 3907lbs 6.4/4.5/3.6/3.8
Chrysler Crossfire SRT6 C537 FR 210Hp 214Tq 3142lbs 4.9/3.4/3.5/3.8
Ferrari 575 Maranello A751 FR 515hp 434tq 3815lbs 7.4/5.6/4.3/4.6
Ferrari 612 Scaglietti A739 FR 540hp 434tq 4123lbs 7.0/5.3/4.3/4.5
Infinity G35 Coupe C453 FR 280hp 270tq 3485lbs 5.7/3.9/3.6/3.9
Maserati GranSport B631 FR 390hp 333tq 3682lbs 5.9/4.8/4.1/4.3
Maserati GranTurismo B610 FR 405hp 339tq 4145lbs 6.0/4.4/4.0/4.3(DLC Car)
Panoz Esperante GTLM B695 FR 420hp 390tq 3384lbs 6.5/5.0/4.1/4.4

I'm all cool with those.

Originally posted by: GCS
Toyota Supra RZ B555 FR 326hp 315tq 3285lbs 5.8/4.4/3.8/4.1
TVR Tuscan S A751 FR 380hp 320tq 2425lbs 6.6/5.6/4.2/4.4

Unfortunately I put these down, they're both sports cars (the RZ would be interesting, but look at th weight of the TVR!). The Toyota that's the Jap equivilent of the Lexus SC though, methink it'd qualify. Not sure about the Panoz GTLM, but I'm way cool with leaving it!

Someone look at the stats on these as well as possible additions: (ones with * definately qualify as GT cars)

Audi S4 '04 C506 AWD 340hp 302tq 3825lbs 5.7/4.0/3.6/3.8
Audi S5 07 (DLC) B568 AWD 354hp 324tq 3594lbs 5.9/4.5/3.7/4.0
Audi RS6 B613 AWD 450hp 414tq 4050lbs 6.6/4.6/3.5/3.8
BMW M3 E92 (DLC) B666 FR 420hp 295tq 3649lbs 6.5/4.6/4.1/4.3
Ford Mustang GT C428 FR 300hp 320tq 3523lbs 5.4/4.0/3.5/3.8
Jaguar XK* B563 FR 300hp 303tp 3516lbs 5.3/4.2/4.2/4.6
Pontiac GTO C523 FR 350hp 365tq 3725lbs 6.2/4.3/3.6/3.9


*edit* Thanks to QuikWgn's tools thingy I found 'em out myself.
 

QuikWgn

Senior member
Mar 10, 2004
647
0
0
forums.nasioc.com
Audi S5 2007 Germany $56,000 --- March DLC Car Pack B568 5.9/4.5/3.7/4.0 FA 354hp 324tq 3594lbs
BMW M3 E92 2008 Germany $95,000 --- March DLC Car Pack B666 6.5/4.6/4.1/4.3 FR 420hp 295tq 3649lbs
 

QuikWgn

Senior member
Mar 10, 2004
647
0
0
forums.nasioc.com
A few more though the Porsche would have PI issues...

2007 Jaguar XK Coupe B563 FR 300hp 303tq 3,516lbs 5.3 4.2 4.2 4.6
2005 Monaro VXR B582 FR 403hp 391tq 3,697lbs 6.3 4.6 3.7 3.9
2004 C32 AMG Sports Coupe C529 FR 349hp 332tq 3,605lbs 6.4 4.1 3.6 3.9
2002 Skyline GT-R V Spec II Nur (R34) B666 FA 345hp 294tq 3,439lbs 6.1 5.2 4.1 4.2
2003 Skyline Coupe 350GT C456 FR 280hp 270tq 3,435lbs 5.6 3.9 3.7 3.9
2002 Skyline Tommy Kaira GT-R R34 B665 FA 394hp 309tq 3,395lbs 5.4 4.9 4.3 4.4
1987 959 A755 RA 450hp 370tq 3,190lbs 6.9 6.0 4.2 4.4
2002 Z382 Soarer (SC430) B582 FR 353hp 412tq 3,814lbs 6.1 4.5 4.0 4.3