Forget Atlas Shrugged, Hello Starship Troopers

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
17,844
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So what?

The only problem I see in this story is the fact that we're still overextending our military and wasting money on unnecessary conventional campaigns that require manpower.
 

irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
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I actually kinda like the idea behind Starship Troopers (If you haven't read the book, read it. Movie is entertaining but laughable by comparison in terms of sophistication.)

In the book they basically have everything down to 2 year tours duty in thousands of obscure positions a civilian can directly apply for, with one overarching rule: Everyone fights, assuming there's a war on somewhere that requires said person's attention. And that's for the resident population to get the right to vote. Makes sense to me that to be able to direct the path of your country you must first demonstrate at least mild devotion to said.
 
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DaveSimmons

Elite Member
Aug 12, 2001
40,730
670
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Service to the state should bring citizenship, so I'm fine with this.

And yes, like in RoboCop the dark humor, satire of wartime propaganda and even the wooden acting in the ST movie was intentional.
 

irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
21,562
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What do you mean by "laughable in terms of sophistication?" You know there's intentional satire and camp in it right?

Yeah, but I'd hardly put it on par with the book. I could spend hours discussing the book with someone else, not so much with the movie. At best it borrowed parts of the book's premise and did it's own thing. Which is fine, just less sophisticated and dumbed down.
 

Kadarin

Lifer
Nov 23, 2001
44,296
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IMO, if a legal immigrant serves a full enlistment term honorably in the military (any branch), they have earned the right to citizenship. I'm totally in favor of this. I'm also in favor of making the immigration process easier for those who choose to enlist in the military.
 

drebo

Diamond Member
Feb 24, 2006
7,034
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I have no problem with this as long as it's restricted to legal immigrants.

If they start to offer it to illegal immigrants, then I'll have a problem.
 

jackstar7

Lifer
Jun 26, 2009
11,679
1,944
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I have no problem with this as long as it's restricted to legal immigrants.

If they start to offer it to illegal immigrants, then I'll have a problem.

I don't have a horse in the race either way, but what's the problem with illegals joining up to serve and earning legal status that way? If someone is willing to die to defend this country that's not something to reward?
 

Thump553

Lifer
Jun 2, 2000
12,839
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Yeah, but I'd hardly put it on par with the book. I could spend hours discussing the book with someone else, not so much with the movie. At best it borrowed parts of the book's premise and did it's own thing. Which is fine, just less sophisticated and dumbed down.

If you don't watch it your going to fool someone into thinking L. Ron Hubbard was a profound writer, and next thing you know they will be a Scientologist.

Starship Troopers was an enjoyable read certainly no greater than dozens of other pulp science fiction from the 1950s and even earlier.

Back on point, hasn't the USA been offering speeded up citizenship and/or citizenship to foreigners in the military since at least WWII?
 

irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
21,562
3
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If you don't watch it your going to fool someone into thinking L. Ron Hubbard was a profound writer, and next thing you know they will be a Scientologist.

Starship Troopers was an enjoyable read certainly no greater than dozens of other pulp science fiction from the 1950s and even earlier.

Back on point, hasn't the USA been offering speeded up citizenship and/or citizenship to foreigners in the military since at least WWII?

Uh... Starship Troopers was written by Robert Heinlein. Not sure why you're bringing Hubbard into this...

Anyway, I'm completely cool with the article in the OP and yes, I'm pretty sure similar policies have been around for quite some time now. Kind of a none-issue.
 

GodisanAtheist

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2006
8,438
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Yeah honestly extend the core concept here to include not just military service but civil service (Peace Corps etc) and I would mind this method of citizenship supplanting naturalization and birthright.

In the book, Civil Service was literally ANY form of sacrifice to the state, and the applicant COULD NOT be rejected, and could walk away at any time with the caveat that they would never again be able to reapply. If you were unfit for literally everything else you'd end up a test subject in a government lab somewhere. After 2 years you'd get your citizenship. The ONLY benefit citizenship conferred was voting rights. Otherwise all people in Heinlein's Federation were granted extensive and irrevocable civil rights otherwise.

Its far from a perfect system and the book isn't a manifesto, but its a good read and you end wishing Heinlein had expanded on his philosophy so much more.
 

Zorkorist

Diamond Member
Apr 17, 2007
6,861
3
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I don't have a horse in the race either way, but what's the problem with illegals joining up to serve and earning legal status that way? If someone is willing to die to defend this country that's not something to reward?
The problem is that just because you were born here, that it doesnt make you any better than anyone else.

America is the land of the free, and competition is warranted and needed to make our land viable into the future.

This land which you were lucky enough to be born in, should always be striving to do better than other lands, and not "punish" people for wanting to be here.

That's almost sadistic.

How about accepting people, as they are...

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

and raising our standard of living.

-John
 
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Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
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I'm against this.

One problem with violence in the world is people who do it for reasons other than self-defense.

This can be state-compelled, it can be poverty-compelled or mercenary - it all boils down to an army of people possibly used to kill innocents for corrupt interests.

We need less military of a mercenary nature. We already have plenty of people who join for mercenary reasons (educational assistance! job skills!) mixed in with those who simply assume that the government can morally authorize killing so they don't need to worry about the moral issues.

This is in contrast to a WWII situation where people are specifically trying to oppose a threat.

This results in missions that can often be quite questionable - Vietnam being an example as we killed 2 million people for misguided reasons.

(Ask how the US could have a military occupation, and people often say, 'the US military would not do that, they're patriots who would refuse to subjugate the people for a tyrant'. OK - that's why it would likely be a foreign mercenary force, who care little for the freedoms of Americans they might largely resent. It's not likely, but if it DID happen, such a force makes a lot of sense - initially deployed for 'security'.)

This policy would create many more soldiers who just 'do as they're told' for the carrot of citizenship serving missions right or wrong.

If we needed that for legitimate defense, ok; we don't. We're an empire already and we need not to give our leaders the temptation of massive forces ready to use.

I'd support practically the opposite of this policy - almost anything but military service to earn citizenship (including the Peace Corps).

Unfortunately, a lot of people just get misty eyed at the word 'service' in the military and think this is a great idea. Our heroes!

I'm, not taking anything away from the very real sacrifices they make - but noting the dangers of misuse by politicians - including the harm to innocents abroad who don't get a vote, and get far too little concern from US citizens who do vote and often place the importance of the emotional gratification of feeling 'strong' above the lives of the all too invisible victims, to serve, usually, some big money interests.

This is a horrible policy. Stick to the military needing recruit citizens, the more they join for reasons of actual defense - including if the military has a hard time recruiting for missions that are far different than defense, that's a good thing - we do not need more mercenary forces out to serve any agenda the powers want, including, quite possibly, killing people somewhere who are fighting for their freedom.
 
Sep 12, 2004
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This is nothing new. In the Air Force I worked with foreign nationals waiting on their citizenship over 30 years ago. The process has simply been accelerated now.

As far as books, Starship Troopers certainly wasn't one of Heinlein's best. I always found it kind of stilted and juvenile. But Stranger in a Strange Land? Now there's a great book.
 

Zorkorist

Diamond Member
Apr 17, 2007
6,861
3
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Never mind the premise that the Martian could just _think_ things away...

I'll take Starship Troopers for good sci-fi.

-John
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
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The only real change seems to me to be the acceleration of the process, which is a good thing. Military service tends to be dangerous, and if an immigrant gets killed in service, it makes more sense that his/her spouse and/or kids (if any) receive the benefit of his citizenship rather than being SOL. Sacrifice should be rewarded, and as long as there are provisions to revoke citizenship should the immigrant intentionally fail his/her requirements this is only a good thing.
 

Thump553

Lifer
Jun 2, 2000
12,839
2,625
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Uh... Starship Troopers was written by Robert Heinlein. Not sure why you're bringing Hubbard into this...

You're right, brain freeze on my part. I mixed up Starship Troopers and Battlefield Earth (which is an entertaining read but from the tiny bits I've seen a truely horrible movie).

Now I feel bad for besmirching Heinlein.
 

ConstipatedVigilante

Diamond Member
Feb 22, 2006
7,670
1
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Sounds good to me. If a person is willing to obey the country's leaders and fight for the country, they should be able to be a member of it.