Ford CPO/dealer fun - Need some unbiased opinions

[Viper GTS]

Apologies for the long story, I've been dealing with this for a month now and while I'm not normally a paranoid person I can't shake the feeling that I'm being screwed with.

In April of this year I bought a 2013 Ford C-MAX CPO from a local Ford dealer chain. It was certified by that dealer. Clean carfax of course. I did not get the car inspected by a 3rd party (stupid, I know). It had a few minor issues that were covered initially by the warranty (door handle wasn't working, broken lugnut) but it has been mostly good. We've put roughly 6k miles on it now. My wife drives it 90% of the time now due to her job, I drive one of our other two cars when she has it.

A month ago it threw a CEL on the highway. I went out and met her with a code scanner, it was a cylinder 3 misfire. We called Ford's roadside assistance and had the car towed to the dealer. It ended up going to one of the sister dealerships of the location we bought it from. Random funny story about this that may or may not be relevant later: The two truck driver didn't even bother to strap it down. I have a picture of it driving away on a flatbed with no straps. Absolutely unreal.

The dealer found a TSB on misfire detection and did the update without investigating further. We got the car back and all seemed OK. I figured at the time it would likely come back, but I knew they had to go through their processes. Less than a week later (around 100 miles maybe) it came on again less than a block from the house so it got put back in the garage. I charged it and drove it on EV mode back to the same dealer who did the TSB.

They called me two days later and the service adviser (apparently unaware that they had sold me the car) told me that the car had been wrecked, that the 'entire front clip' had been replaced, and that it never should have been CPO-d in the first place, and none of the issues would be covered by warranty. Their diagnosis was water had gotten into the ECM. I was of course displeased and he cold transferred me to the sales manager at the sister dealership that sold me the car.

After three weeks of being bounced between dealerships and the sales organization of one pointing fingers at the service organization of the other I finally saw the car last weekend. They're right, it has definitely been damaged. It's not visible at all from the front of the car unless your head is basically on the ground. It looks like it has been dragged backwards over something and splash shields have been torn off. There are missing pieces, and the mount points for those pieces are ground off (which is going to necessitate replacing the bumper, so no just fixing the electronics). Here's what it looks like (bonus picture of my dead car getting jumped when I tried to pick it up! The fun never ends.):

I am fairly confident that if this damage had happened under my watch I would have known about it, so my next thought was maybe it happened coming off the tow truck (given the guy didn't care enough to strap it down). It took the dealer a week but they have supposedly reviewed the tapes of the dropoff and found nothing suspicious.

By this point I have fairly well resigned myself to dealing with this myself. They finally got me a quote on Thursday for ~$3100 in parts and labor. On Friday I attempted to retrieve the car in its unrepaired state to investigate having it fixed elsewhere but it's completely undrivable in gas mode at the moment. It has a horrible misfire + vibration now so it's stuck there until it's gotten a full EV charge at least. While waiting around the dealer and working with the service adviser they said "yeah we heard you thought maybe the tow truck did it but if that was the case then someone went right out and bought replacement parts because it has new shields on it." And just like that I'm back to feeling screwed with.

WTF do I do here? Is it reasonable to think that I (or my wife) could have done this much damage without knowing about it? This car is completely loaded and has parking sensors front and rear. It's remarkably easy to avoid stuff in parking lots. Statistically speaking if it were one of us it was probably her, but she is generally pretty good about this stuff - She knows to pull over on CEL, she knows how to manage her own tire pressure, she's jumped cars on her own before, etc. The Ford service adviser claims this happens all the time and people usually don't know it's happened but they also insist the car has been repaired.

Summary for the lazy:

- Bought a CPO C-MAX
- Car has damage, needs repair approaching 20% of purchase price
- Sister dealer insists the car has been damaged and repaired (poorly?), much to the aggravation of the sales department

Viper GTS

 

[NutBucket]

I guess suggesting a call to Ford Corporate is too obvious? Is there any sort of CPO warranty?

 

[Viper GTS]

I guess suggesting a call to Ford Corporate is too obvious? Is there any sort of CPO warranty?

I called Ford corporate the very first day, within hours of being told the car had been wrecked and repaired. They put me on hold for a while and then came back and told me that it was a sales issue and Ford doesn't get involved in sales issues.

That said they did contact the dealer, the sales manager mentioned they had received a message about it.

The car has a 12 month/12k warranty that came with the CPO that is essentially equivalent to the factory warranty except with a $100 deductible. I added coverage to 100k miles. So yes, it's under warranty unless you're looking for something like CPO insurance ie the dealer fucked up. That I'm not aware of.

Viper GTS

 

[boomerang]

They called me two days later and the service adviser (apparently unaware that they had sold me the car) told me that the car had been wrecked, that the 'entire front clip' had been replaced, and that it never should have been CPO-d in the first place, and none of the issues would be covered by warranty. Their diagnosis was water had gotten into the ECM. I was of course displeased and he cold transferred me to the sales manager at the sister dealership that sold me the car.

You've got them for fraud IMO. At least on the misfire issue. I'm not sure what the policy is going to be on the damage.

I'd call the owner of the dealership or the general manager. Let them know of the situation, that you feel they have a responsibility in this situation to do right by you and that if they don't want to play ball that you will be contacting the attorney general in your state.

There was fraud committed regarding the accident damage because there was no report to carfax. Unfortunately you don't know who committed that. You don't know who did the repairs. There is fraud being committed because Ford refuses to honor their warranty on the vehicle. There is probably a better word than fraud for this aspect of the situation but the right word is escaping me at the moment. Edit: Breach of contract.

I bet they'll cover the PCM and go half on the damage. You might be happy with that and you might want to take this all the way. Social media will be your friend on this. You won't be able to have any effect on Ford, but you will on the dealership.

I would also write a calm, matter of fact letter to Ford letting them know how you're being treated and so on and so forth.

No need to scream and holler (it doesn't sound like that's your style anyway) you just need to let them know you're as serious as a heart attack about how you intend to deal with this and that you'll take it as far as you need to to get a resolution.

 

[Zivic]

that damage shown is hardly "wrecked" or the entire front clip has been replaced.

someone just pulled to far over a parking curb and back out ripping off the front under panel.

the damage does look visible from above. look at your 3rd pic, you can see the paint cracked/flexed on the top portion of lower lip. standing and looking down at the front bumper you would know something was up.

if I'm being honest, this is how most people treat their cars. always pulling too far forward and bottoming out on curbs. I probably hear/see people do it weekly.

I don't think it would be too much issue getting them to replace a bumper cover, a splash shield or two and possibly the computer. I do find it hard to believe that that missing splash shield caused the computer to fail. something else is going on there. have they tried changing the plug or coil?

 

[iamwiz82]

Is the situation permanent or is it only when the ECM is actually wet, because of the lack of a splash shield?

 

[Viper GTS]

that damage shown is hardly "wrecked" or the entire front clip has been replaced.

someone just pulled to far over a parking curb and back out ripping off the front under panel.

the damage does look visible from above. look at your 3rd pic, you can see the paint cracked/flexed on the top portion of lower lip. standing and looking down at the front bumper you would know something was up.

if I'm being honest, this is how most people treat their cars. always pulling too far forward and bottoming out on curbs. I probably hear/see people do it weekly.

I don't think it would be too much issue getting them to replace a bumper cover, a splash shield or two and possibly the computer. I do find it hard to believe that that missing splash shield caused the computer to fail. something else is going on there. have they tried changing the plug or coil?

I agree that it hasn't been wrecked. Once I actually saw it it was pretty clear that was an over-statement on the part of the service adviser. I also agree that it would be easy to do (though I still think nearly impossible to do without knowing you'd done it), and I was completely ready to accept that we'd done it and pay for the repair myself until the service department once again insisted that there had been prior repairs done. I noticed the cracked paint while uploading the pictures, I think I'd have noticed that if it were there before.

They've done nothing with plug or coil yet, they're denying warranty on the injector based on it being damaged by the water-logged ECM. It also seems very unlikely to me that an ECM damaged enough to short an injector would have shorted only that injector.

Is the situation permanent or is it only when the ECM is actually wet, because of the lack of a splash shield?

Appears to be permanent at the moment, it hasn't really been driven in three weeks and currently has a very obvious misfire.

Viper GTS

 

[Jimzz]

If the CPO warranty is through contact ford then don't let them tell you its a sales issue, tell them its under warranty and you want it fixed.

Send a certified letter to the dealer that sold you the car. Tell them to either fix it 100% right or give you a 100% refund.

Make sure to save records of all e-mails, calls, and letters.

 

[MadScientist]

Without positive proof that the damage was not done by you or your wife, even though their service department told you that previous repairs had been done, you are probably SOL on getting them to pay for the repairs.

We all know that Carfax reports can be incomplete and not include unreported damage, and by your own admission, "I did not get the car inspected by a 3rd party (stupid, I know)," those previous repaired damages should have been detected by you or someone else before you purchased the vehicle.

 

[z1ggy]

Lesson learned; have 3rd party inspect all used cars purchased, regardless of CPO status or otherwise. Odds are a competent 3rd party mechanic would have inspected and notified you of the damage.

As for your current situation... Not sure you can prove that the dealer is responsible. Unless you had time stamped pics of that area right after purchase... You probably assume all responsibility now. This happened to my father, almost exact situation. Carfax clean, CPO car. He was getting something fixed later on and the dealer asked him about the "replaced front fender work". Needless to say, he never crashed it and the carfax never had any recording of collision. Nothing he could do on that one.

 

[soulcougher73]

These types of stories always make me want to lease in the future.

 

[NutBucket]

Huh? What would leasing solve vs. buying new cars? Or, buy a used car that isn't covered by a (apparently) BS warranty.

 

[Jimzz]

These types of stories always make me want to lease in the future.

If this was a lease it would be worse. What they are saying is "yea it has a warranty but you still have to pay for someone else's mistake...". And since its a lease you will have to fix it back to factory spec or pay more when you turn it back in.

Honestly if I was the OP I would be going full nuclear right now.

 

[tracerbullet]

I guess I only have 2 questions / thoughts:

* Agreed that the damage in the pictures isn't a big deal or uncommon. But why did one of the dealers claim the entire front clip had been replaced? They had to have seen something else to make that sort of statement. Also if they think something had been replaced then obviously it shouldn't still be damaged. I think you should take a deeper look at the car because the scuffs under the bumper may not be what the dealership was talking about.

* It would seem simply that the dealer that sold you a CPO car should take care of the repairs for you and that would be that. If they decided not to because the car had been damaged, it would seem they should acknowledge having sold you a damaged car and still be on the hook for solving your problem. I'd skip having multiple dealers involved.


I dunno. Good luck.

 

[Midwayman]

Might be worth a consult with a lawyer and have them send them a letter. If they aren't living up to the CPO standards they owe you money for sure. Doesn't sound like they want to play ball.

 

[Ferzerp]

The pictures don't go with the story of an accident.

The pictures only show consistent driving over and scraping on parking lot stops. I say parking lot stops because you can tell a lot of damage has been done while the car was reversing. I suppose there could be a place where someone continually backs out that the front scrapes, but regardless, that is repeated driver caused damage, not any accident.

 

[z1ggy]

The pictures don't go with the story of an accident.

The pictures only show consistent driving over and scraping on parking lot stops. I say parking lot stops because you can tell a lot of damage has been done while the car was reversing. I suppose there could be a place where someone continually backs out that the front scrapes, but regardless, that is repeated driver caused damage, not any accident.

Sounds/looks like person backing up onto a flat road from a very inclined driveway, scraping under the car in the process. Never would have gone on a carfax if the driver never claimed damage. I'm assuming that the dealer did a piss poor job inspecting the car, saw the clean carfax and marked it as CPO.

 

[Viper GTS]

I found two pictures from before all of this - One the night I brought it home and the other a few weeks later.

Perhaps it's just wishful thinking but that corner looks a little ragged in the lit picture. I also see other chips on the originals that make me think this was definitely not done by me. Also maybe flexed paint on the left hand side but hard to say could be JPG artifacting.

Viper GTS

 

[Ferzerp]

I'm not sure about a drive way though. See the bulge down in the center? I don't know how a flat surface that it was scraping over would have stretched the plastic like that since there would never be a downward pulling force there, but with something that it scraped over and then sometimes passed and hooked over I can see that happening.

That's why I thought parking lot stops. With how scratched up it is, I would think maybe parking lot stops where someone worked since it seems pretty consistently done.

 

[jlee]

Bumper damage or not, I have a really hard time believing water on an ECM would cause it to fry injector #3 and cause no other damage or malfunction.

 

[Zivic]

that last pic it looks like there is cracked/flexed paint below and to the right of the "k" on the plate

 

[Viper GTS]

Went in and talked to the sales manager again today, and presented the solution of:

They give me a trade in credit for what I have into the car (basically original total minus sales tax and the ESP cancellation credit) and as a gesture of good faith I will buy another car from them. I need to figure out what I want to get, but they seemed generally receptive. Should know more in the next few days but I think they are getting really tired of me showing up to talk to them. I've spent a full work day's worth of hours sitting in the lobbies of the two dealerships so they have to be getting tired of it.

Viper GTS

 

[thecoolnessrune]

I think that's the best way to go about it. If you got a standard deal from them (nothing crazy that you don't have any chance of getting from them again) and the car essentially wouldn't have passed CPO in the first place, then you didn't get what you paid for. Let the car go, and get something without the shady past.

 

[Viper GTS]

The dealer is now saying they won't pay over book trade in value so that compromise route is out.

They've tentatively (pending management approval) offered to cover labor & paint if I cover parts. It cuts my costs roughly in half but costs them far less, so it's somewhat elegant but then I'm stuck with a car that has had repairs. I can get parts through them for ~$1700 with taxes or about $1400 shipped in from a dealer in Florida vs $3100 original quote with all labor and parts.

Should I just take it to put an end to all this or is this worth taking any further? If their service department weren't so insistent it had had prior repair work I'd think it was a pretty reasonable offer.

Viper GTS

 

[thecoolnessrune]

Ok I apologize if I missed this already because I'm on my phone and in a hurry, but why are you having to pay for any of this? A CPO is covered for 12K miles and 12 months, which if I remember correctly you are well within. Are they just saying that the damage must be your fault? If it's not, if they refuse to cover repairs I think it's later time. You should absolutely not be responsible for warrantied parts on a car that was supposed to CPO. If it's not, the dealership should be taking the car back as its not what you bought. If they refuse to do right by you, I bet there's a lawyer that could intimidate them into giving you what you deserve without dragging it out further.