For the first time, warrantless wiretaps cited as evidence in a criminal case

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Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
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M, if you were President we may have an new holiday of National Paisley Day ( :D ) but I should think that if an argument is made as to why obtaining a warrant after the fact is not allowable, you would ask why and attempt to inform the people as to why that is. I have yet to see a good reason given so far. "You are supporting terrorists if you don't go with this" and similar statements do not qualify in my book.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
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M, if you were President we may have an new holiday of National Paisley Day ( :D ) but I should think that if an argument is made as to why obtaining a warrant after the fact is not allowable, you would ask why and attempt to inform the people as to why that is. I have yet to see a good reason given so far. "You are supporting terrorists if you don't go with this" and similar statements do not qualify in my book.

I am not sure what you are saying here but I don't think it is related to what my point was. I would ignore you if you told me not to use my weapon, but I would expect to have to answer for it.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
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I am not sure what you are saying here but I don't think it is related to what my point was. I would ignore you if you told me not to use my weapon, but I would expect to have to answer for it.

The problem is applying the hypothetical to reality. In the scenario you present you identify a need and justify the action but at the same time accept the personal consequences. In the hypothetical case I accept that and would probably do the same IF I were faced with certain facts. Now what if you were a moral person who faced the possibility of some doing wrong, but you didn't know who are when. When there is suspicion sufficient to raise a serious question of safety the means to investigate are at your disposal. But- what if you know that someone somewhere is planning to do harm, and that person could be almost anyone. You have reason be believe you are correct. Do the ends justify the means, and if rights are violated and harm done, what punishment could be given which would undo events?

Perhaps you aren't referring to any circumstance or person and you are making general statements?
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
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I did post the above in the wrong thread as pointed out but its somewhat relevant if you look at the bigger issue I suppose.

He can only stop what he's made aware of and intelligence agencies can be extremely bloody minded about what they share with leaders who are only there at the whim of the electorate.

There was an old British comedy called "Yes Minister" and a sequel "Yes Prime Minister", its available as a book and a TV series. Its fictional but gives a good insight into the minds of senior civil servants (do you call them that in the States?), as they had a goodly number of sources in government that fed them how things worked. It was a favourite of Thatcher when she was in power and she remarked upon how accurate it was.
LOL I did the same as Nintindesert and yes, it IS somewhat relevant given that Obama has plead ignorance on virtually everything done during his tenure.

Heh, we all have and will do it. There are two kinds of people, those who make mistakes and those who lie about it ;)

I understand that no President can know all things at all times and that includes Obama, but when something has been in the major press for a long time and it involves the justice dept and it's actions it's pretty hard to say "I had no idea". Warrantless wiretapping in this country has been a topic of much debate here since our government decided to do away with traditional Constitutional protections during the Bush administration. It's amusing to see the "see you are just after Obama" posts when myself and some others made it known that we did not approve of the warrantless program. The Republican (read Bush) supporters kept claiming that the three day waiting period for a warrant meant that bad guys got away. What they refused to acknowledge is that under FISA as it was there wasn't a need to obtain a warrant before a wiretap. If it was believed that the matter was of grave importance and needed immediate action, a tap could be implemented immediately, however an application for a warrant must be sent to the FISA court within 3 days.

There was a great cry against this by the Dem side on the forum, and generally, but now it's "well the law allows it, Obama has no say, Obama must obey the Republican mandate" and on and on. Substantially the Dems are no different in this regard with Obama than the Reps are with Bush. The other side of the coin is that we get to see people who where ardent supporters of the program during the last administration crying now. Obviously it's the same motivation, someone elses guy is doing it, not theirs.

Playing spot the hypocrite does get old though and takes away from the problem, and that's the ever increasing expansion of a tool that was originally designed to counter serious threats to national security from terrorists and support groups.

Now there's no sense in my "BUT BOOSHing" this since Bush is no longer in office. Obama is and he has or has allowed an extending of the various programs and their scope beyond the egregious abuses of his predecessor. I'm not sure why I am supposed to support or excuse this when I didn't before, but that's how partisan hackery works.

There is something good here though and that's the actions of the Solicitor General, who found that secret evidence gathering had been done and the defendant had to be notified. That led to the ability to bring a challenge to the SCOTUS. The SG is part of the DOJ, which in turn belongs to the Executive Branch, and we know who runs that, well most of us do, but the SG is the person the SCOTUS holds in highest regard, as he is the one who represents the government in cases presented to it. In other words if he loses credibility he's less than worthless. He has a similar relationship with Congress. He cannot afford to be the puppet. That said, the actions of the DOJ in the past have been to prevent people learning about whether they have been targets, and so far the EFF and the ACLU have been thwarted in their efforts to examine if Americans have been inappropriately targeted. The DOJ has successfully argued that effectively one needs access to classified information to see if you were tapped, but to do that you have to show you were tapped to get access to the classified information, an intentional Catch-22. The significance of the OP's post is that for the first time it's been acknowledged that there was a wiretap without a warrant, and so a case can proceed. Since efforts in the past have been to prevent such a thing I expect some blocking tactic or other technicality is being worked on. It's beyond credulity that something of this magnitude has eluded Obama for such a long time. This is hardly just anything.
Well said, sir. Unfortunately we on the right are generally even worse on this issue, which does not bode well for ever regaining our Constitutional rights. (Odd that the party more leery of government in generally is also generally more trusting that government will do the right thing. If he does nothing else useful, at least Obama has disabused us of that notion.) Pray that we remember our outrage when next we get a Republican President, for he certainly will not want to lose that power. I fear though that a very mild restraint on its growth will be the best we can achieve.

Unfortunately as well there is a legitimate need for classified, no-warrant wire taps. I say "unfortunately" because clearly our government can no longer be trusted with that kind of power. Perhaps they never could be trusted and we were merely fooling ourselves.
 

VirtualLarry

No Lifer
Aug 25, 2001
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Unfortunately as well there is a legitimate need for classified, no-warrant wire taps.
I disagree. The Fourth Amendment says the gov't has to have a warrant to be able to search, "supported by oath or affirmation".

The Constitution does NOT grant the gov't the right to use blanket, warrant-less wiretaps to spy on citizens "just in case".
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
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I disagree. The Fourth Amendment says the gov't has to have a warrant to be able to search, "supported by oath or affirmation".

The Constitution does NOT grant the gov't the right to use blanket, warrant-less wiretaps to spy on citizens "just in case".

That's not what the Fourth Amendment says; it says that searches must be 'reasonable'. There are wide-ranging provisions for warrantless searches.

I am one of the biggest opponents of warrantless wiretapping you will ever meet, but even I don't think you always need a warrant.