For progressives: should the healthcare bill be opposed?

[Craig234]

This is not a thread for 'what's everyone's opinion on the healthcare bill', it's a thread forspecifically the issue of whether progressives should oppose the bill.

More and more progressives are saying 'yes', while others are taking a stand that the bill should besupported despite its huge ommissions.

Keith Olbermann, Howard Dean, and more are saying it's not good enough to support. You can read their commentaries various places like Commondreams.org.

The issues include on the support it side:

Our embarrassingly inadequate Democrats are still far better than Republicans, and killling healthcare helps Republicans (ironically, because of idiot voters). It can be viewed as a baby step in the right direction. Progressives who support it point to modest things it improves. If it's killed, that makes the industries who are profiting from the current very corrupt system very pleased, and might make reform hard for a long time as it did after the Clintons.

Issues include on the against it side:

The bill has not only been gutted, that was the plan it seems clear from the beginning for Obama. The corporatist wing of the Democrats seem to have chosen from the start to ally with the big industries to get their support. The bill forces everyone to buy insurance, a controversial provision not because it doesn't make sense if done right, but because it's a freebie giveaway for massive new profits for the insurance industry withou tthe protections for consumers, no 'public option'. Progressives did not get what they minimally demanded to support it. Killing it would send a message to the corporatist democrats.

I'm on the fence - I certainly agree with the sentiments of Howard Dean on the problems, but it's a big step for progressives to kill (crap gutted corporatist) healthcare reform.

People I think well of on both sides are split. I'm slightly leaning towards kill it.

Glenn Greenwald has an excellent column on the phon Obama position that he's like a better bill, but the moderates prevented it. See either site in my sig for his excellent commentary.

 

[bamacre]

Bad health care bills are what got us into this mess to begin with.

 

[fskimospy]

Killing it is crazy. No contest. (it will also never happen)

 

[cubby1223]

Our embarrassingly inadequate Democrats are still far better than Republicans, and killling healthcare helps Republicans

You know well enough that a comment like this will not be allowed to go unchecked, despite your proclamation of a "progressive" only discussion Basically saying you're willing to support crap just to try and score political points

 

[Darwin333]

Killing it is crazy. No contest. (it will also never happen)

So you are in favor of increasing profits for insurance companies and big pharma for almost no benefit to the American people?

Is it simply political reasons you think killing it would be crazy or are there at least a few things in the bill that you actually like?

 

[Ausm]

Killing this bill would be a HUGE win for the GOP that's why their echo chamber has been so silent. They are loving every fucking second of this. They are using the same playbook they used in '94 to kill the bill. Hey the GOP wants to buttfuck the corporations that's their business but we need to pass meaningful reform and regulation of the healthcare industry.

I say fuck the conservadems and Lieberman, reconcile the bill would be better then they watered down lump of shit they have now just to appease a few senators who were never really interested in health reform to begin with.

Then hammer out a much better bill in the conference committee merging with the much stronger bill from the house.

 

[PokerGuy]

Killing the bill would be a plus for the GOP (and the country as a whole of course), plus a very embarrasing loss for the president. On the flip side, liberal congressional reps and senators passing a bill without the socialist policies the left fringe wants just tells their constituents "we don't care what you want, we'll vote for this turd just to score political points and avoid further embarrasment for the our Dear Leader".

 

[PokerGuy]

Then hammer out a much better bill in the conference committee merging with the much stronger bill from the house.

Yeah, and you don't think the moderate dems that are needed to pass this turd are fully aware of something like that? They know there's a very real danger of a horrible bill coming out of conference, and they don't want to face the angry voters when it does happen.....

 

[Ausm]

Killing the bill would be a plus for the GOP (and the country as a whole of course), plus a very embarrasing loss for the president. On the flip side, liberal congressional reps and senators passing a bill without the socialist policies the left fringe wants just tells their constituents "we don't care what you want, we'll vote for this turd just to score political points and avoid further embarrasment for the our Dear Leader".

Hey if you don't like "socialist policies" are you going to refuse your Social security and Medicare? You should unless you are full of shit like the congressman who are collecting it now...

 

[Ausm]

Yeah, and you don't think the moderate dems that are needed to pass this turd are fully aware of something like that? They know there's a very real danger of a horrible bill coming out of conference, and they don't want to face the angry voters when it does happen.....

The heat they are getting from the left is enormous right now so I doubt your theory is correct.

 

[ayabe]

Killing the bill would be a plus for the GOP (and the country as a whole of course), plus a very embarrasing loss for the president. On the flip side, liberal congressional reps and senators passing a bill without the socialist policies the left fringe wants just tells their constituents "we don't care what you want, we'll vote for this turd just to score political points and avoid further embarrasment for the our Dear Leader".

Double digit increases on insurance premiums from year to year isn't good for the country. That's what we currently have and it's a huge drag on our economy and will handicap us severely in the future.

These baby boomer assholes are too stupid to realize the pain is coming now or coming later, only when it comes later it's going to hurt a lot more.

So let it fail, let's just keep shoving that AETNA/Bluecross/United HC baseball bat up our asses for another 10 years, then we'll really be fucked.

 

[HumblePie]

They aren't talking about completely killing it, just reconciliation.

I'm neither conservative nor liberal. I have friends who are lean way more in either direction than I do and friends that are conservative call me liberal and friends that are liberal call me conservative. I find it funny actually. I like to think I make informed decisions based on facts than on any party bias.

With that bit out of the way, healthcare needs to be reformed. What we have hasn't worked. I am all for keeping government OUT of private industry except where private industry starts stepping over the bounds of individuals and their rights. That is when government needs to step in and make laws and mandates to regulate how private business works to stop abuse. I also have zero problem with a government run program competing with private industry. None at all. We know this works as UPS, Fedex, DHL and other mail carriers have no problem competing with USPS.

I do not like government telling me what I as an individual can or can not do. That is not freedom. I don't want to government telling me I have to use USPS, nor do I want them telling me I have to buy government ran healthcare if I don't want to.

Healthcare reform is needed and needed BADLY right now. If completely killed I loathe to think of the future. We need proper laws to put the current healthcare industry back on track in taking care of people, not laws on individual people on how they should succumb to the healthcare industry.

 

[StageLeft]

I think it's unsatisfactory enough that even if it overall is better than what exists now it should be killed on principle so that something else can come along. In reality, though, nothing else will. So probably if you're of the opinion it's better than status quo you ought to support it because hoping that lobbyists get their phallus out of the government is not realistic.

 

[PokerGuy]

Double digit increases on insurance premiums from year to year isn't good for the country. That's what we currently have and it's a huge drag on our economy and will handicap us severely in the future.

There is nothing in this bill that would actually address costs. In fact, it would just drive them up. What this bill does is shift the costs around and twist a few things, create more government waste and interference with our lives, but it does not fix the cost problem.

So let it fail

Agreed.

There are plenty of ways we can improve the health care system, lets look at those instead of this garbage.

 

[Ausm]

There is nothing in this bill that would actually address costs. In fact, it would just drive them up. What this bill does is shift the costs around and twist a few things, create more government waste and interference with our lives, but it does not fix the cost problem.


Agreed.

There are plenty of ways we can improve the health care system, lets look at those instead of this garbage.

You are right the watered down piece of crap in the senate does not contain costs that was stripped out by consevadems....what they are conserving is anyone's guess.

 

[OCGuy]

True progressives dont support the bill.

 

[PokerGuy]

True progressives dont support the bill.

Sane people -- progressive or conservative -- don't support this bill.

 

[fskimospy]

So you are in favor of increasing profits for insurance companies and big pharma for almost no benefit to the American people?

Is it simply political reasons you think killing it would be crazy or are there at least a few things in the bill that you actually like?

There are tons of things in the bill I like. Expansion of insurance coverage, elimination of pre-existing conditions as a cause for denial of coverage, preventing insurers from dropping people when they have the gall to actually use their health insurance coverage, better enforcement of cost control standards for Medicare, etc... etc... etc.

It would be crazy for both political reasons and practical ones. If the Democrats fail on health care here again, we will have the status quo for the foreseeable future. It took 20 years for someone to pick it up again after Clinton failed, and to allow the crazies on the right to derail it again would make it at least another 20 years.

The bill isn't perfect, pass the framework now and fix what doesn't work later.

 

[0marTheZealot]

The bill is garbage. I would simply let the healthcare problem spiral out of control. Might as well, that's pretty much the only way we get change in America. When shit gets so bad it forces your hand. Right now, this bill is less than useless. It's a waste of money. Sure it covers millions more, but it does nothing about cost, nor efficiency, nor addressing the fundamental problem of how to pay for it.

Simply put, let the current healthcare debacle spin out of control in 20 years. It's already a mess, about 60% of medical bankruptcies came from people who had health insurance. We already spend more per capita in taxes and out of our own pockets than every other developed nation in the world. You read that right. We spend more on taxes for healthcare than every other nation in the world. On top of that, we spend more money out of pocket than any other nation in the world. This is per capita, not total dollars, so it's one of the cleanest units of measurements there is. For all the howling about the UK's NHS, Canada's single-payer, France/Germany's hybrid systems being too "expensive" and "taxed to hell", we are already miles ahead of them in taxes and in our out-of-pocket expenses.

So just let the problem get so bad that people will be forced to change the system. Trying to change the system now is futile. Too many shrill voices are drowning out the debates.

Finally, this needs to be a wakeup call for Democrats. Quit trying to achieve "bipartisanship". It's garbage, they essentially gutted the bill several times for 3 or 4 GOP votes. Let the GOP cry in the corner and give the whip a f'kn whirl. Dissidence has to have a price. If your own party can blockade a major bill like this, then it's time to punish Democrats who fail to get in line.

 

[Craig234]

You know well enough that a comment like this will not be allowed to go unchecked, despite your proclamation of a "progressive" only discussion Basically saying you're willing to support crap just to try and score political points

Why do you need to dilute the thread with this? It's a very simple idea and has nothing to do with political points. It has to do with picking the best imperfect choice, the least of evils, whatever.

If it's Kucinich or Obama, I pick Kucinich. If it's Obama or McCain, I pick Obama. If it's McCain or Sarah Palin, I pick McCain. If it's Sarah Palin or Hitler, I buy a gun. You get the point.

The phrase 'political points' i your hands seems to be like paint in the hands of a toddler, poo in the hands of a gorilla, just something to throw around recklessly. Restraint would be appreciated.

Well, that's not quite right - the lack of restraint is not appreciated is more accurate, while restraint is unnoticed. But still.

 

[Ausm]

Finally, this needs to be a wakeup call for Democrats. Quit trying to achieve "bipartisanship" It's garbage, they essentially gutted the bill several times for 3 or 4 GOP votes. Let the GOP cry in the corner and give the whip a f'kn whirl. Dissidence has to have a price. If your own party can blockade a major bill like this, then it's time to punish Democrats who fail to get in line.

I agree with this part. President Obama actually thinks he could negotiate with the Grand Obstruction Party in good faith. What a waste of fucking time. But I do believe there is room to pass a decent "starter bill" if they have go to the reconciliation root.

 

[PokerGuy]

We spend more on taxes for healthcare than every other nation in the world. On top of that, we spend more money out of pocket than any other nation in the world. This is per capita, not total dollars, so it's one of the cleanest units of measurements there is. For all the howling about the UK's NHS, Canada's single-payer, France/Germany's hybrid systems being too "expensive" and "taxed to hell", we are already miles ahead of them in taxes and in our out-of-pocket expenses.

Yes, but you forget that the "reform" that many have in mind is only going to increase the expenses even further, and at the same time reduce the type of healthcare we get. We spend way too much, but without fixing the cost itself, no bill is going to make anything better, only worse and more expensive.

Finally, this needs to be a wakeup call for Democrats. Quit trying to achieve "bipartisanship". It's garbage, they essentially gutted the bill several times for 3 or 4 GOP votes. Let the GOP cry in the corner and give the whip a f'kn whirl. Dissidence has to have a price. If your own party can blockade a major bill like this, then it's time to punish Democrats who fail to get in line.

Yeah, blame the repubs. Sure. Newsflash. The repubs have no say in this whatsoever. The dems have the supermajority in both houses and can do whatever they want. It's not the repubs getting in the way, the moderate dems know that the public does not want the garbage the far left is peddling, and they know they will pay the price come election time. Idiots like Pelosi will get re-elected, because her constituents are idiots. People like Nelson from Nebraska know that if they pass this garbage, they will get the boot. No amount of pressure from the Dear Leader or other idiot democrats will change that reality. It's self preservation.

 

[Zebo]

Bill is a total disaster and progressives know it.

Killing it is a win for GOP, makes dems look weak.

Passing it is a huge win for big insurance and pharma and huge loss for almost every American.

Way I look at it there is no difference between corporatist wing (majority) of the Democratic party and mainline GOP so any progressive with integrity will simply take the political hit even if it means the GOP makes some gain.

Dean and Kucinich are my favorite Democrats and I respect their judgment.

 

[RyanPaulShaffer]

It's telling that HOWARD DEAN opposes this bill.

YEAAAAAAAAAAH!

I love how the liberals are still trying to spin this as the GOPs fault. Protip: they have been nothing but onlookers during this entire process. Note the headlines never read, "And the White House met with Senator Graham today" or "Harry Reid discussed a key compromise with Senator Kyl". The Republicans have been entirely shut out of this deal from day one. The Democrats have a super majority, and sure as heck have been flaunting it, going full-on partisan all the way. This is entirely a 100% Democrat thing.

Funny thing is, if the Democrats had actually even made an attempt to be "bi-partisan" like they claimed to be, they probably could have gotten Olympia Snowe and Susan Collins on board. Instead, they plowed ahead pig-headishly, and well...here we are.

This sure has been an amusing ride, though it is frightening if this monstrosity actually becomes law. True health reform is needed, but not this nightmare they are trying to foist upon us from behind closed doors. Whatever happened to every step being televised on C-SPAN, BTW? Another "transparency" casualty like posting bills online 72 hours before a vote?

 

[Genx87]

Double digit increases on insurance premiums from year to year isn't good for the country. That's what we currently have and it's a huge drag on our economy and will handicap us severely in the future.

These baby boomer assholes are too stupid to realize the pain is coming now or coming later, only when it comes later it's going to hurt a lot more.

So let it fail, let's just keep shoving that AETNA/Bluecross/United HC baseball bat up our asses for another 10 years, then we'll really be fucked.

Medicare and Medicaid have seen double digit increases in cost as well. This bill wont address any of that anyways.