For just around $5 a month per family we could have 100% green and renewable energy.

[Darwin333]

We have a big wind farm in western NY, and I purchase about a quarter from it. I also pay a premium because I like the idea of keeping it around.

The 6 bucks would probably pay for upkeep. Maybe.

Sure it can pay for maintenance but without federal subsidies, state subsidies, renewable requirements on the local power industries, etc. you wouldn't even have the option. To claim that it "only" costs $5 a month is misinformation and that is the very last thing the industry needs right now. Prices are dropping fast while conventional sources are foretasted to rise bringing us, hopefully, closer to grid parity.

 

[nick1985]

This thread makes my head hurt.

 

[the DRIZZLE]

Just for reference solar power comes out to about 5x the average price per kwh we pay now if you remove the subsidies.

 

[Darwin333]

Just for reference solar power comes out to about 5x the average price per kwh we pay now if you remove the subsidies.

That isn't accurate either.

 

[the DRIZZLE]

That isn't accurate either.

At NYC's latitude it is. In NJ a solar renewable energy credit is worth around $600 per megawatt hour. The high subsidy reflects the difference between the cost of producing the power and the price in you can sell it for.

 

[rcpratt]

The electricity from green power is so special that they can separate it and make sure that only that power is directed to your house. :whiste:

 

[JD50]

Hah

Hah

Hah

He's just playing by the rules. Isn't that the excuse given when rich Democrats are caught taking advantage of legal tax loopholes, while at the same time they're calling for the rich to be taxed more?

 

[Darwin333]

At NYC's latitude it is. In NJ a solar renewable energy credit is worth around $600 per megawatt hour. The high subsidy reflects the difference between the cost of producing the power and the price in you can sell it for.

While I agree that NJ isn't the best place in the nation to put solar due to the sunhours up there you can not base the "cost" of solar power on the SREC market. The reasons behind the demand for SRECs and the way that they are bought and sold makes comparing their cost to the actual cost of traditional electricity apples and oranges.

You have to figure the lifetime cost of power from renewables versus the lifetime cost of power from the grid. WITH the 30% Federal subsidy commercial installations pay for themselves in the south before you figure in inflation of the cost of grid power over the life of the system. Granted they will not make you much without additional state or utility incentives or even something like the NJ SREC market but even if you remove the 30% from the Feds you can get real close to break even cost.

When you add in the "cost" of money as well as the expected inflation in energy costs the numbers get a bit more complicated but it hasn't been 5 times the cost of grid power in quite some time.

 

[rudder]

TVA encouarages local power distributors a chance to allow customers to pay $4/month so their power can come from "greener" resources. This does not mean they can power a home with green energy for $4/month. this $4 is on top of their regular power bill.

 

[PeshakJang]

He's just playing by the rules. Isn't that the excuse given when rich Democrats are caught taking advantage of legal tax loopholes, while at the same time they're calling for the rich to be taxed more?

It isn't hypocritical when Democrats do it... just like when they use violence, racism, or hateful rhetoric... they have the moral self-justification to do anything they decry.

 

[the DRIZZLE]

While I agree that NJ isn't the best place in the nation to put solar due to the sunhours up there you can not base the "cost" of solar power on the SREC market. The reasons behind the demand for SRECs and the way that they are bought and sold makes comparing their cost to the actual cost of traditional electricity apples and oranges.

You have to figure the lifetime cost of power from renewables versus the lifetime cost of power from the grid. WITH the 30% Federal subsidy commercial installations pay for themselves in the south before you figure in inflation of the cost of grid power over the life of the system. Granted they will not make you much without additional state or utility incentives or even something like the NJ SREC market but even if you remove the 30% from the Feds you can get real close to break even cost.

When you add in the "cost" of money as well as the expected inflation in energy costs the numbers get a bit more complicated but it hasn't been 5 times the cost of grid power in quite some time.

I agree the SRECs don't tell the whole story, I was using the SRECs as an example because it does give you a rough of idea of the relative costs. But saying that the installation can pay for itself over a long period doesn't tell the whole story either. If you priced the power to give the same ROI as traditional sources for solar in most parts of the country its going to be several times higher than current prices.

 

[Darwin333]

I agree the SRECs don't tell the whole story, I was using the SRECs as an example because it does give you a rough of idea of the relative costs. But saying that the installation can pay for itself over a long period doesn't tell the whole story either. If you priced the power to give the same ROI as traditional sources for solar in most parts of the country its going to be several times higher than current prices.

I am talking about end consumer pricing which is what I am familiar with. It sounds like you are talking utility level which is an entirely different animal. The utilities pay far less per KW/H than they charge customers. Even then, they usually use todays KW/h cost and don't factor in increases in fuel costs and other cost factors. Unless of course you think your electric bill will be the same per KW/h in 20 years as it is today.

 

[OCGuy]

OP fail

 

[the DRIZZLE]

I am talking about end consumer pricing which is what I am familiar with. It sounds like you are talking utility level which is an entirely different animal. The utilities pay far less per KW/H than they charge customers. Even then, they usually use todays KW/h cost and don't factor in increases in fuel costs and other cost factors. Unless of course you think your electric bill will be the same per KW/h in 20 years as it is today.

The cost to the utilities is what matters if you want to build large solar facilities. They have other costs for T&D so I don't know why you would ignore those. Most models I've worked on made a guess at fuel price inflation and electricity price inflation. But for nuclear power fuel price inflation doesn't really matter since thats not where the costs are.

If solar is such a good deal why does it need all these subsidies?

 

[ConstipatedVigilante]

Ah, fuck it.