For anyone who knows how to wire electrical: Will/How does this work?

[chucky2]

We (hastily) prewired for two external lights and a light switch to activate them when we did a living room remodel, and now after having the lights and switch sit here for a few months, I'm getting sick of looking at them and would like to get them up before the sh1tty season kicks in.

I drew up a quick diagram here (don't laugh too hard): http://inlinethumb35.webshots.com/26530/2774544290057351393S600x600Q85.jpg

I understand that as soon as I wire nut the outside eletrical outlet into the inside electrical box (which has its own inside electrical outlet), that I'll have continuous power at the outside electrical box, uncontrolled by the inside electrical switch: And that's how I want it.

What I don't understand is, if I wire up the two lights, with the direction the electricity is coming from (before the light switch, not after), how is it possible the light switch is going to have any affect on the lights?

It would seem to me that the lights would be on all the time (like the outside electrical outlet), and the switch would basically have zero control over them.

Are we sunk (I'm not ripping off the outside siding, and not ripping up the inside of the house), or, will this actually work?

Help!

Chuck

EDIT: Fixed link to super small picture.

 

[Paperdoc]

Sorry, your diagram is so small and at low resolution, so I can't read it even when "blown up". So I'll just write the general way this is done.

I gather you start inside with an electrical box that contains a duplex outlet that is always live, and then somewhere you also have a switch you want to have control the outside lights. You also have outside somewhere another duplex outlet you want to have on all the time. What is not clear to me is what wiring cables have been installed between these boxes.

Case #1 - a single 14/2 cable goes from the inside box(es) to ALL of the outside boxes. The "14/2" label means there are TWO current-carrying conductors (14 gauge) - one white, one black - plus a bare copper Ground wire in the cable. With this case you are stuck, because you can wire EITHER to have the black lead going outside to be always on, or to be controlled by the switch, but not both and not some split between the two uses. To fix this you would have to run a second 14/2 cable from the inside outlet box to the outside one so you can create two branches - one always on, and a second controlled by the switch. Alternatively, IF the cable already installed is NOT nailed to studs inside the wall or fed through holes and curves, you MAY be able to pull a replacement cable through. The cable you really need is 14/3 (see next case). So IF you figure you can, disconnect the existiing 14/2 cable at one box and loosen off the cable clamps in each box, then tightly tie the ends of its wires to the ends of wires from a piece of 14/3 cable and pull the old one out, thus dragging the new one into place. Fasten the mechanical cable clamps in the boxes at each end and prepare the wires for connections.

Case #2 - a single 14/3 cable goes from the inside box(es) to ALL of the outside boxes (or at least to the first one in the group). "14/3" means there are THREE current-carrying conductors in the cable - white, black, and red - plus the bare Ground wire. This DOES give you TWO separately-controlled branches possible. The white is the common Neutral connection to all devices in all boxes. Use the black as a Hot lead that is always on, and feed the exterior outlet from that. Use the red as a different Hot lead that is fed from the switch, and feed that to your light fixtures.

 

[Murloc]

you linked the thumbnail

 

[chucky2]

Sorry about the really small pic in the link, does the update link give you guys a better idea what I'm talking about?

I also just went out and looked (there's a cover over the cutout for the #1 light), and the pair running in the flex cable from light #1 to light #2 seems at moderate tug to not want to move. If what I have is confirmed not work, I'll go out and give it a really good tug, and see if I can't get the single pair out of there.

This is what happens when you do rush remodel job after having lithotripsy for a kidney stone.

Chuck

 

[Pulsar]

We (hastily) prewired for two external lights and a light switch to activate them when we did a living room remodel, and now after having the lights and switch sit here for a few months, I'm getting sick of looking at them and would like to get them up before the sh1tty season kicks in.

I drew up a quick diagram here (don't laugh too hard): http://inlinethumb35.webshots.com/26530/2774544290057351393S600x600Q85.jpg

I understand that as soon as I wire nut the outside eletrical outlet into the inside electrical box (which has its own inside electrical outlet), that I'll have continuous power at the outside electrical box, uncontrolled by the inside electrical switch: And that's how I want it.

What I don't understand is, if I wire up the two lights, with the direction the electricity is coming from (before the light switch, not after), how is it possible the light switch is going to have any affect on the lights?

It would seem to me that the lights would be on all the time (like the outside electrical outlet), and the switch would basically have zero control over them.

Are we sunk (I'm not ripping off the outside siding, and not ripping up the inside of the house), or, will this actually work?

Help!

Chuck

EDIT: Fixed link to super small picture.

It won't. The switch needs to be between the exterior outlet and the lights.

In addition, that exterior outlet needs to be a GFI, or all this needs to be on GFI. Any exterior outlet always needs to be GFI protected.

 

[chucky2]

Super.

After I got off my pain drugs and healed up, I started thinking about it, and sorta concluded what you just told me. I guess what I'm going to have to do is, see just how hard I can honk on the wiring running in the flew cable to see if it'll come out. If it can come out, then maybe I can do what Paperdoc listed, as we just have normal conduit running from the exterior electrical outlet to the light #1 electrical box, and from the light #2 electrical box to the lightswitch. So, getting different and/or additional wire to those is doable.

I believe the electrical coming into the internal electrical outlet is just 2 wire - this is an older house, it doesn't have ground wire.

Thanks for the GFI info, I'll have to check what's needed for that as I can't remember how the external electrical outlet is grounded (it's in a weatherized box that really will hardly get wet, still though, now that you say GFI for that, I realize it's necessary for safety).

Chuck

 

[uclabachelor]

We (hastily) prewired for two external lights and a light switch to activate them when we did a living room remodel, and now after having the lights and switch sit here for a few months, I'm getting sick of looking at them and would like to get them up before the sh1tty season kicks in.

I drew up a quick diagram here (don't laugh too hard): http://inlinethumb35.webshots.com/26530/2774544290057351393S600x600Q85.jpg

I understand that as soon as I wire nut the outside eletrical outlet into the inside electrical box (which has its own inside electrical outlet), that I'll have continuous power at the outside electrical box, uncontrolled by the inside electrical switch: And that's how I want it.

What I don't understand is, if I wire up the two lights, with the direction the electricity is coming from (before the light switch, not after), how is it possible the light switch is going to have any affect on the lights?

It would seem to me that the lights would be on all the time (like the outside electrical outlet), and the switch would basically have zero control over them.

Are we sunk (I'm not ripping off the outside siding, and not ripping up the inside of the house), or, will this actually work?

Help!

Chuck

EDIT: Fixed link to super small picture.

You have three choices here:

1) Move the exterior wiring to switch instead of light 1 so it goes ext -> switch -> light 2 -> light 1.
2) Move switch in between exterior wiring and light 1 so it goes ext -> switch -> light 1 -> light 2.

3) Redo the wiring.

 

[chucky2]

Sh1t, that's what I figured...

OK, thanks for the help guys!

I'll try to pull the wire out first, without going to the 'damage it' level. If I can't get it out to get 3 wires in there, then, I'll have to just go with light #2 and the switch where it is - I can get more wires from light #2 to the switch...so if I lose light #1 I can get the power with the 2 wires to the switch, and just get more wire to light #2 and the switch.

F!!!!!!!

Chuck

P.S. Don't do major work while hopped up on drugs and in serious pain...

 

[Paperdoc]

Thanks for the updated pic - that makes it clearer. Do not worry about the wiring from Light #2 onwards. In fact, the way the switch is positioned it can't work there anyway. Where you do need a 14/3 cable is from the inside outlet box to the exterior outlet. It is only on that leg of the runs that you need two different hot leads - one always on, and one controlled by the switch.

If you cannot pull out the new wiring on that part of the run and hence replace it with a length of 14/3, maybe there's another way. Is it possible for you to just "fish" a new piece of 14/3 cable between those two outlet boxes? If it happens that they are within the same space between two vertical studs inside the wall, you might do that. You would just disconnect both ends of the piece of 14/2 cable that now runs between those boxes, loosen off their cable clamps, and push the ends of the wires out of the boxes into the wall. Then you ignore them completely. Now you feed the new 14/3 cable through the hole in the back of one box into the wall and try to feed it up (or down) to the other box until you can snag its end and pull it into the box's entry hole. IF you can temporarily remove one or both of those boxes and then re-install them later, the whole operation is MUCH easier because you have larger holes in the wall to reach into and see.

If you could do that, then there are two more things to do. One is to fix the wiring for the switch, and this one could be a problem because that switch may not be close to the interior outlet box. The problem to address is that the switch needs to be in the Hot supply line going out to the light boxes BEFORE the first exterior box, not after the second as your drawing shows. If you can arrange a single piece of 14/2 cable from the interior outlet box to the switch box, that will do the job. At the outlet box you would connect the black lead of this cable to the Hot supply, and the white line coming back from the switch to the red lead of the 14/3 cable. At the switch, the black and white leads merely attach to the switch's two terminals. In this cable run, the white is NOT Neutral (its common use). It becomes a switched Hot coming back from the switch. Connecting it to the red line going out to the exterior outlet box makes that line the switched hot. At the exterior outlet box, that red line then is connected to the black wire in the cable continuing on the the first light box.

Especially since you apparently have no Ground wire in the existing interior box and outlet, installing a GFCI is REALLY advised, and others say it is legally required! There is a simple device for this. They look like a dual outlet and are designed to mount in the box to replace the existing interior outlet you have. But they have four terminals or wires. One is for Ground which you don't have and cannot connect to anything. One is the Neutral terminal, and to it you must attach the incoming Neutral line from the fuse box and the outgoing Neutral (white) wire in the 14/3 cable that runs to the exterior box. One is for the Hot supply from the fuse box, and ONLY that wire gets connected to it. The fourth is an OUTPUT Hot line, and to that you co0nnect any downstream Hot lines that need power. In your case, those are the black lead going up to the switch, and the black lead going out to the exterior outlet box. What the device does is apply its GFCI protection BOTH to its own outlets AND to the downstream devices that you connect to its OUTPUT Hot lead. In this way you have installed a GFCI that protects all devices at and after this particular box and outlet.

 

[Paperdoc]

Late thought. If you cannot replace particular cable runs, there may be another way. You still need to feed the first box - the exterior outlet - with the existing 14/2 cable, and you still need to DISconnect the wiring between the last box - Exterior Light #2 - and the switch box. Then what you need is a remote control module for the lights. You need a unit that is small enough to fit into the box where your Exterior Light #1 is mounted, and its power supply is as already installed - always on 14/2 cable from the Exterior Outlet box. Then the remote switch unit's output sends power both to the light fixture in this box and to the connected fixture in the other light box. For the switch (you buy a set of remote control module and switch), look for a unit that is made to mount in a normal switch box in the wall, but is powered by a battery you have to replace occasionally.

I looked around for a set like this and did not find exactly what you need, but I know they are available. Leviton, for one, is a huge electrical supplier that probably has the set. I did note that the switch module, not surprisingly, has a small wire sticking out that is NOT connected to anything else because it is the antenna for the radio circuit inside. As such, the manufacturers often recommend that you extend it through a small hole and OUTSIDE the metal mounting box to let it pick up a good signal.