For all of you who think you can buy technology today.

[Edward Lee]

Why is it that members who never built a system in their life or who just built there first system "swear" that if they build a system today they can upgrade it 3 years from now and still have a great system? That is just childhood fantasy. There was a recent poll here it shows that the average member builds a new computer every 2.5-3 years.

Let me tell you. I've been putting systems together for almost 10 years now and I've seen more than my share of technology. If you ugrade a 3 year old computer in 3 you'll get an upgraded 3 year old computer.. Which won't be much of an improvement. The plain fact is if you upgrade a 3 year old system all you'll get is an upgraded system with 3 year old technology.

Also, if you're the type that upgrades every 6-12 months find out if the person you're talking to is planning to do the same thing before you make a recommendation that they can upgrade too. Otherwise you're giving them misleading information and letting the other person spend more money than they should on something that'll be otherwise useless in 3 or so years.

Two case in points: SLI and Socket 939 Technologies.

Here are some of what I've heard:
"SLI is good because you can have one card and add another one in the future."
SLI is good now because it is currently the fastest system available only if you use 6800GT or 6800 U cards. And what about the future? Your current SLI system won't be competative even if you upgrade the cards. Why? Because SLI systems work because BOTH the graphic card and motherboards are designed to work with one another so you can't simply buy another card and plug it in and expect great performance. So if ATI comes out with some super next Generation card you won't be able to plug 2 of them into your SLI motherboard and cruise through games like Buck Rogers. Nor will it be that simple with Nvidia Cards. The Motherboards are designed specifically for those cards and that SLI technology. If Nvidia makes upgrades the technology in their cards(which undoubtely they will) current motherboards will probably not be compatable. And guess what? You'll have to buy a new board. While you're at it you'll need to buy a new Graphics card. 2 new ones if you want to run SLI because current graphics cards will not run SLI with a different model card.

Edit: And for those of you who think SLI works by adding 2 PCI-e slots to a motherboard and just install a couple of drivers think again. It's not that simple. SLI is a technology. Which is different from PCI-e or AGP. Sure you'll still be able to plug your card in the slots and have them work, but that doesn't mean they'll work in SLI. You won't get any performance benefits if the cards aren't compatable with either the motherboard or the other graphics card.

And here another example
"939 is good because it is upgradable and 754 are not"
If you're arguing about pure upgradability, the only way 939 would be better suited if you were planning to upgrade from now to 6-12 months from now. Beyond that time it will be old technology just like everything else out today. One can argue the point all day long, but the bottom line is, in 3 years do you still want to keep your 939 and upgrade it or would you rather buy a new new system? If you picked the later then it won't matter which socket you choose. But it is proven you'll experience better performance with a better graphics card than a less than 1% difference in CPU speed. So for the $50-$100 you save on a 754 CPU one could invest it in a better graphics card and experience much better performance today.

There may be other reasons that one might choose to pick either one, but beyond that that would be a personal choice and I won't argue with that.

 

[MetalMat]

SLI is a ripoff, it just lets people think they are cool when really they blow goat nuts :roll:

 

[JackBurton]

Dude WTF, are you still on your crusade to prove SLI has no merit? I do agree that SLI is not good for upgrading (1 card, and then a second card later), but the performance is unmatched when you drop in two of the fastest video cards available at one time. And let me tell you, SLI will be here for a looong time. It's not just for the current generation of video cards.

Because SLI systems work because BOTH the graphic card and motherboards are designed to work with one another so you can't simply buy another card and plug it in and expect great performance. So if ATI comes out with some super next Generation card you won't be able to plug 2 of them into your SLI motherboard and cruise through games like Buck Rogers. Nor will it be that simple with Nvidia Cards. Remember the Motherboards are designed specifically for those cards and that technology.If Nvidia makes changes (whcih undoubtely they will) the current motherboards will not be compatable. And guess what? You'll have to buy a new board. While you're at it you'll need to buy a new Graphics card. 2 new ones if you want to run SLI because current graphics cards will not run SLI with a different model card.

WTF are you talking about? The current motherboards support two PCI-E video cards, that's it. The video cards are designed to work in SLI, NOT the motherboard. The motherboard just provides the bandwidth to pull it off. If ATi came out with their next generation SLI video cards, they WILL work on current NForce 4 SLI boards in an SLI configuration. And let me tell you why I'm POSITIVE SLI will be here for a looong time. Because people will buy twice as many video cards now. You think they are going back to a single card design when they can sell TWO high end cards at once?

 

[JackBurton]

Originally posted by: MetalMat
SLI is a ripoff, it just lets people think they are cool when really they blow goat nuts :roll:

That's just something poor people say.

 

[Edward Lee]

I don't know where you get your facts but from all the articles I've read, SLI technology is specific for a given make of card. When and if ATI SLI cards arive those cards will not work on current SLI motherboards. Also, what would be the point of buying a Nvidia card today and then buying an ATI card tommorow when they won't work together anyways??

And Jack, if you read my post I stated SLI is currently very fast. No sense arguing with something I've already stated. And my arguement isn't against SLI, more towards members who say it's an upgrade path or that it's future proof.

 

[Alptraum]

Originally posted by: Edward Lee
I don't know where you get your facts but from all the articles I've read I learned SLI technology is specific for a given card. Ao ATI cards on current SLI motherboards will not work.

Thats just because they haven't bothered to make ones that do. Has nothing to do with PCI-E boards only supporting NVidia stuff. Its just like back when you could run Vodoo cards in SLI. They ran on PCI. But PCI wasn't specific to them. They just happened to be the people that designed a video card that could do it.

If ATI (or anybody) wanted to they could do an SLI type implementation as well. Wether they will or not is a different issue. But it has nothing to do with MB makers restricting stuff to NVidia.

 

[nitromullet]

Here are some of what I've heard:
"SLI is good because you can have one card and add another one in the future."
Wrong! SLI is good now because it is currently the fastest system available only if you use 6800GT or 6800 U cards. And what about the future? Your current SLI system likely will not be as competative even if you upgrade the cards. Why? Because SLI systems work because BOTH the graphic card and motherboards are designed to work with one another so you can't simply buy another card and plug it in and expect great performance. So if ATI comes out with some super next Generation card you won't be able to plug 2 of them into your SLI motherboard and cruise through games like Buck Rogers. Nor will it be that simple with Nvidia Cards. Remember the Motherboards are designed specifically for those cards and that technology. If Nvidia makes changes (whcih undoubtely they will) the current motherboards will not be compatable. And guess what? You'll have to buy a new board. While you're at it you'll need to buy a new Graphics card. 2 new ones if you want to run SLI because current graphics cards will not run SLI with a different model card.

And here another example
"939 is good because it is upgradable and 754 are not"
If you argue about pure upgradability the only way 939 would be better suited if you were planning to upgrade 6-12 months from now. Beyond that time as with all technology from today it will be old technology. One can argue the point all day long, but the bottom line is, in 3 years do you still want to keep your 939 and upgrade it or would you rather buy a new new system? If you picked the later then it won't matter which socket you choose. But it is proven you'll experience better performance with a better graphics card than a less than 1% difference in CPU speed. So for the $50-$100 you save on a 754 CPU one could invest it in a better graphics card and experience much better performance today.

You need to check some of your facts with regards to SLI. As far as your comments about socket 754/939, your point is valid. However, there are more factors involved here, such as how much money you have to spend overall and what features you want on your mobo. For instance, if you want A64 and PCIe, socket 939 is the only way to go. IMO, the problem here is that most people here are over-generalizing their upgrade advice. That, in addition to no one being able to tell the future, makes for a bunch of erroneous assumptions and wild claims.

 

[bigpow]

IME, it's always cheaper to buy a mid-end system every 2-3 years than buying a high-end system and upgrading it.

 

[Edward Lee]

Originally posted by: bigpow
IME, it's always cheaper to buy a mid-end system every 2-3 years than buying a high-end system and upgrading it.

:thumbsup:

 

[JackBurton]

Originally posted by: bigpow
IME, it's always cheaper to buy a mid-end system every 2-3 years than buying a high-end system and upgrading it.

And yet you'll never have the best. If you're happy with mediocrity, then yes, that would be a good way to go. I prefer to get the best components every 2-3 years.

 

[Cerb]

I upgrade more often than 3 years, but my case and monitor are the only parts that old.
Well, aside from my keyboard, which used to be from 1984 (I killed it w/ water), but is now from '89.

 

[flamingspinach]

Originally posted by: Edward Lee
Why is it that members who never built a system in their life or who just built there first system "swear" that if they build a system today they can upgrade it 3 years from now and still have a great system? That is just childhood fantasy. There was a recent poll here it shows that the average member builds a new computer every 2.5-3 years.

Let me tell you. I've been putting systems together for almost 10 years now and I've seen more than my share of technology. If you ugrade a 3 year old computer in 3 you'll get an upgraded 3 year old computer.. Which won't be much of an improvement. The plain fact is if you upgrade a 3 year old system all you'll get is an upgraded system with 3 year old technology.

Also, if you're the type that upgrades every 6-12 months find out if the person you're talking to is planning to do the same thing before you make a recommendation that they can upgrade too. Otherwise you're giving them misleading information and letting the other person spend more money than they should on something that'll be otherwise useless in 3 or so years.

Two case in points: SLI and Socket 939 Technologies.

Here are some of what I've heard:
"SLI is good because you can have one card and add another one in the future."
Wrong! SLI is good now because it is currently the fastest system available only if you use 6800GT or 6800 U cards. And what about the future? Your current SLI system won't be competative even if you upgrade the cards. Why? Because SLI systems work because BOTH the graphic card and motherboards are designed to work with one another so you can't simply buy another card and plug it in and expect great performance. So if ATI comes out with some super next Generation card you won't be able to plug 2 of them into your SLI motherboard and cruise through games like Buck Rogers. Nor will it be that simple with Nvidia Cards. Remember the Motherboards are designed specifically for those cards and that technology. If Nvidia makes upgrades the technology in their cards(which undoubtely they will) current motherboards will probably not be compatable. And guess what? You'll have to buy a new board. While you're at it you'll need to buy a new Graphics card. 2 new ones if you want to run SLI because current graphics cards will not run SLI with a different model card.

And here another example
"939 is good because it is upgradable and 754 are not"
If you argue about pure upgradability the only way 939 would be better suited if you were planning to upgrade 6-12 months from now. Beyond that time as with all technology from today it will be old technology. One can argue the point all day long, but the bottom line is, in 3 years do you still want to keep your 939 and upgrade it or would you rather buy a new new system? If you picked the later then it won't matter which socket you choose. But it is proven you'll experience better performance with a better graphics card than a less than 1% difference in CPU speed. So for the $50-$100 you save on a 754 CPU one could invest it in a better graphics card and experience much better performance today.

There may be other reasons that one might choose to pick either one, but beyond that that would be a personal choice and I won't argue with that.

Excellent post. Thank you.

-fs

 

[jabronidan89]

Good post except 939 is better then 754. AMD already announced that dual core will be on 939, so when dual core comes out, you just buy that, and you don't have to change your mobo unlike with 754 where you have to spend another $100 on a mobo and a new processor. But, who knows what will happen in a year or two, nobody can predict it, so basically, if you buy a 939 and plan to go dual core later on, you take a small risk but hey, its only around a $50 risk.

 

[Edward Lee]

Originally posted by: jabronidan89
Good post except 939 is better then 754. AMD already announced that dual core will be on 939, so when dual core comes out, you just buy that, and you don't have to change your mobo unlike with 754 where you have to spend another $100 on a mobo and a new processor. But, who knows what will happen in a year or two, nobody can predict it, so basically, if you buy a 939 and plan to go dual core later on, you take a small risk but hey, its only around a $50 risk.

You're right, when dual core comes out then you can spend money on a dual core. But that still doesn't change what you pay for and what you get today. And you'll just about always get whay you pay for.
You do pay a little more for 939 and you do get a little more in terms of flexibility. But how long does that last and what else can you buy for that little bit extra you will spend on a 939. Part of my reasoning is that the difference in performance is so small compared to what you can get by spending that money on a better graphics card it might be worth it for people on a tight budget who don't plan to upgrade in 12 month and want the best performance they can buy right now.

 

[flamingspinach]

I think you missed the point... >_> For most people, if they buy a system now, they'll probably want to replace the whole thing when the time comes. "upgrade path" makes no sense. Even if you got a 939 mobo right now, if you want to upgrade your CPU later your mobo will probably be way outdated by then so you'll have to upgrade that as well. So why not stick with the lower-priced, same performance 754?

-fs

 

[jabronidan89]

Originally posted by: flamingspinach
I think you missed the point... >_> For most people, if they buy a system now, they'll probably want to replace the whole thing when the time comes. "upgrade path" makes no sense. Even if you got a 939 mobo right now, if you want to upgrade your CPU later your mobo will probably be way outdated by then so you'll have to upgrade that as well. So why not stick with the lower-priced, same performance 754?

-fs

I will be going 939 when I will build, and get myself a 3000+ so I don't regreat upgrading that in 1.5 years or so. Thats just how I feel. However, I want to go PCI-E, because I won't have the cash to drop another $900 on a system in 2 years, so upgrades every 1.5 years or so is good for me. I am only 15, so money isn't exactly easy for me to get, not working and all, especially paying for the PC myself.

BTW, i make the money selling stuff on Ebay, pretty profitable actually.

 

[Edward Lee]

What do you sell? Can I get a discount?

And yes everyone will have their own reasons for choosing one or the other. I just like to hear someone try to convince another member to buy one over the other solely because they think they can upgrade it in 3 years and not fall behind. That's just not the case.

 

[Gamingphreek]

Bad post! No offense man but you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

SLI is good for two reasons:
1. You can buy one card now, and later when they fall in price you can stick in another and get nearly 2x the performance. The Motherboard has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with compatibility. As long as it supports SLI then there is no problem.

BOTH the graphic card and motherboards are designed to work with one another

Well isn't that the case for all PC's. I mean if the Motherboard didn't work with one another the computer really wouldn't work. Also you say it is a good idea now but not later.... aren't you doing the same thing except waiting and paying less money?

Q]Remember the Motherboards are designed specifically for those cards and that technology. If Nvidia makes upgrades the technology in their cards(which undoubtely they will) current motherboards will probably not be compatable. And guess what? You'll have to buy a new board. While you're at it you'll need to buy a new Graphics card. 2 new ones if you want to run SLI because current graphics cards will not run SLI with a different model card. [/quote]

The Motherboards are not specifically designed for any card. I can run a Geforce 6 in an Nforce1 series board if i feel like. It makes no difference unless the PCI-E or the AGP spec changes. I understand what you are saying in the second part but you are thinking before you are posting. You aren't supposed to (nor can you) SLI two different models of cards. You are "SUPPOSED to buy one card and later buy another of the exact same thing and get close to double the performance or do the second choice.

2. You can buy both cards now. THis is the ultimate setup. You dont get any faster than this. However it is expensive.

939 is better than 754. PCI-E has not come to 754 nor IIRC is it planned to. THe only new socket i have heard of (only a rumor) is socket 900. 939 does have a MUCH longer upgrade path than 754. Also there is more than a 1% difference. For the minimal amount of money you spend on 939 over 754 it will not get you much else. 939 is the way to go. If you wait so long that a whole new architecture, socket, and tech is out then yes buy a new system. However 90% of enthusiasts do not wait 3 years to upgrade their computer.

-Kevin

 

[jabronidan89]

Originally posted by: Edward Lee
What do you sell? Can I get a discount?

And yes everyone will have their own reasons for choosing one or the other. I just like to hear someone try to convince another member to buy one over the other solely because they think it can be upgraded in 3 years. That's just not the case.

Yeah, ofcourse. However 3 years ago you could get a socket 478 (i believe, I am not too familiar with Intel's anymore) which means you can get a new cpu now which will still work on that mobo. I think that mobo's back then had an AGP 4x slot though, not 8x, atleast mine is 4x (then again I have a crappy Dell so I don't count, I wish I would've known about AT and back then). Anyway, I think socket 939 offers more options for the next year to year and a half, but its anyone's guess what happens after that.

I sell some of my clothes that I dont wear anymore and other things I don't use. I don't sell computer parts if you were asking about that. My sister does sell clothing for small children though, pretty good prices, if you're interested, lol.

 

[Edward Lee]

I should buy some gifts for my nieces....

Gamingphreek,

Yes the cards will work in PCI-e but they may not work in SLI. What does that mean? You could stick 2 PCI-e card into a SLI motherboard and they will both register and you can use them independently, but when you play games they will only work like a single card and you will not get the performance benefits of SLI with non compliant cards.

Also, 939,754Like I said you can argue all day. Again my point is for the money you can buy a better performing system, for the money, TODAY (not tommorrow, the day after tommorrow next week, next month, next year)... Today if you went with a 754 you could use the price difference to buy a better graphics card.

And again, the choice is up to the individual on which one is better for them, but facts are facts.

 

[justly]

Originally posted by: Edward Lee

... And my arguement isn't against SLI, more towards members who say it's an upgrade path or that it's future proof.

Couldn't agree more.

 

[jabronidan89]

Originally posted by: Edward Lee
I should buy some gifts for my nieces....

heh, my Ebay name is igotbestgoods, if you want contact me on AIM, coorsdan, so I know that it's you who bought sometime.

 

[nitromullet]

Yeah, ofcourse. However 3 years ago you could get a socket 478 (i believe, I am not too familiar with Intel's anymore) which means you can get a new cpu now which will still work on that mobo.

You can technically do that, but you won't actually get a cpu that performs up to par with the current high end P4's. Intel increased the FSB on the socket 478 from 400 MHz to 533MHz and then to 800MHz. Even at 800MHz, the fastest socket 478 chip is 3.4GHz (which is certainly fast), but you won't get any of Intel's new 1066MHz FSB chips into any socket 478 mobo. My argument is certainly not that the new Prescott chips in LGA775 are overly superior to the socket 478 Northwoods, but rather that eventually you do have to replace your motherboard if you want to run the newest chips. The same is true for the AMD side, even if you are talking about Athlon XP, many of the older Athlon chipsets don't support anything beyond a 266MHz FSB.