Football question - what defines the pocket?

[spidey07]

I thought the pocket was defined by your tackle s(two players on the outside of the offensive line).

I thought that if the play moves to the left and the QB is still inside of his tackles, he was still in the pocket. i was told today by co-workers that played college ball that this isn't the case.

The pocket is defined when the ball is snapped, no matter where the tackles go/block.

Also - how many players are required to be on the line of scrimage and what constitues an illegal formation?

thanks in advance for what should be easy questions.

 

[spidey07]

bump?

 

[jlbenedict]

Originally posted by: spidey07
I thought the pocket was defined by your tackle s(two players on the outside of the offensive line).

I thought that if the play moves to the left and the QB is still inside of his tackles, he was still in the pocket. i was told today by co-workers that played college ball that this isn't the case.

Only if inside the hash marks, right?
Once the QB is outside the hash marks, he is considered out of the pocket.
I believe that is how they are determining intentional grounding this year.. I could be wrong though.

 

[dmw16]

google could probably answer all of this too, but I'll take a crack at it.

my understanding is that the pocket is defined as being between the hash marks and back from the line of scrimage. there is no back to the pocket (as far as I know), at least not as defined when ruling on intentional grounding.

5 players need to be on the line at the snap. 1 center, 2 guards, 2 tackles.

 

[mugs]

http://www.nfl.com/fans/rules/definitions

22. Pocket Area: Applies from a point two yards outside of either offensive tackle and includes the tight end if he drops off the line of scrimmage to pass protect. Pocket extends longitudinally behind the line back to offensive team?s own end line.

Doesn't specify if the pocket follows the line.

http://www.nfl.com/fans/rules/positionofplayers

Position of Players at Snap

1. Offensive team must have at least seven players on line.

2. Offensive players, not on line, must be at least one yard back at snap.

(Exception: player who takes snap.)

3. No interior lineman may move abruptly after taking or simulating a three-point stance.

4. No player of either team may enter neutral zone before snap.

5. No player of offensive team may charge or move abruptly, after assuming set position, in such manner as to lead defense to believe snap has started. No player of the defensive team within one yard of the line of scrimmage may make an abrupt movement in an attempt to cause the offense to false start.

6. If a player changes his eligibility, the Referee must alert the defensive captain after player has reported to him.

7. All players of offensive team must be stationary at snap, except one back who may be in motion parallel to scrimmage line or backward (not forward).

8. After a shift or huddle all players on offensive team must come to an absolute stop for at least one second with no movement of hands, feet, head, or swaying of body.

9. Quarterbacks can be called for a false start penalty (five yards) if their actions are judged to be an obvious attempt to draw an opponent offside.

10. Offensive linemen are permitted to interlock legs.

 

[Andy22]

The "pocket" is defined by the "U" shape made my the tackles blocking the DE's up field along with the guards and center staying in front. They form a pocket for the QB to sit in. Sometimes you will hear about the pocket collapsing meaning the defensive line pushes the OL back into the QB. You have to be outside the OT's to be able to throw the ball away and avoid Intentional Grounding. If you are out of the pocket you are generally outside the tackles.

 

[torpid]

I don't think the pocket moves... otherwise they could all scrunch up in the center to prevent grounding calls. But it's a good question.

 

[jlbenedict]

Intentional Grounding of Forward Pass
1. Intentional grounding of a forward pass is a foul: loss of down and 10 yards from previous spot if passer is in the field of play or loss of down at the spot of the foul if it occurs more than 10 yards behind the line or safety if passer is in his own end zone when ball is released.

2. Intentional grounding will be called when a passer, facing an imminent loss of yardage due to pressure from the defense, throws a forward pass without a realistic chance of completion.

3. Intentional grounding will not be called when a passer, while out of the pocket and facing an imminent loss of yardage, throws a pass that lands at or beyond the line of scrimmage, even if no offensive player(s) have a realistic chance to catch the ball (including if the ball lands out of bounds over the sideline or end line).

 

[j00fek]

vick cant define the pocket

 

[Ilmater]

OK, simple question:

For Intentional Grounding penalties, the pocket is defined as the area between the outside shoulders of the two offensive tackles. The QB has to be outside of this and throw the ball past the line of scrimmage, OR throw within 5 yards of an eligible receiver, or it's intentional grounding.

For announcing purposes ("This team can't maintain the pocket," or, "He can just sit inside that pocket all day") it's the area that forms around the QB by the offensive line after the ball is snapped. There is no textbook description of it in this sense, it's just a theoreticla safe area the offensive line tries to maintain to allow the QB to throw the ball.

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: Ilmater
OK, simple question:

For Intentional Grounding penalties, the pocket is defined as the area between the outside shoulders of the two offensive tackles. The QB has to be outside of this and throw the ball past the line of scrimmage, OR throw within 5 yards of an eligible receiver, or it's intentional grounding.

For announcing purposes ("This team can't maintain the pocket," or, "He can just sit inside that pocket all day") it's the area that forms around the QB by the offensive line after the ball is snapped. There is no textbook description of it in this sense, it's just a theoreticla safe area the offensive line tries to maintain to allow the QB to throw the ball.

Thanks. That I understand. Figuratively the pocket is the protection of the Offensive Line 5.

From the rule jbenedict posted and mugs posted I still can't see a definative answer.

Do the intentional grounding rules follow the tackles as they move (i thought they did) or is this set permanently when the ball is snapped?

1) QB stays inside his tackles as the OL moves and continues to move left, QB moves "outside the pocket" is now well inside where his tackles were set, throws pass that is uncatchable, obviously to avoid loss of yardage. Is this intentional grounding?

2) I'm saying it has to be. Otherwise let's say your entire OL moves left, you get forced out of the figurative pocket to go right and are now where you originally hiked the ball (QB is outside of the tackles at this point, but inside the line they formed when set)

I can't see how option 2 would occur or why that would be the case. I believe the defintion of the pocket as it pertains to intentional grounding is that the pocket moves with the play and if QB is outside of his tackles intentional grounding can be called if it meets the other qualifications of intententional grounding.

So the question still is, for intentional grounding is it based on moving tackles or is it set at snap?

 

[spidey07]

Well just talked with a coach and he got called on this the other day.

For intentional grounding the spot where the tackles are at when snapped is used.

So if your right tackle moves far right to block and the QB steps to the right of where the tackle was set and throws the ball into the ground....NOT intentional grounding. Even though the QB is "inside" the tackles.

 

[sao123]

Originally posted by: spidey07
Well just talked with a coach and he got called on this the other day.

For intentional grounding the spot where the tackles are at when snapped is used.

So if your right tackle moves far right to block and the QB steps to the right of where the tackle was set and throws the ball into the ground....NOT intentional grounding. Even though the QB is "inside" the tackles.

the pocket is defined as a box from outside should of tackle to outside shoulder of tackle PRE-SNAP. It does not matter where the tackle goes after the ball is snapped...Once you are outside that original area to the left or right, you cannot be called for intentional grounding, provided you meet all the other conditions.

Additionally, if you are in a heavy set, with 3 tackles:
(T)(G)(C)(G)(T)(T)
The pocket is defined by the outermost tackles. (Even in a tackle eligible play)
And, no the third tackle is not a tight end...because he has an offensive lineman number.

 

[sao123]

Also just wanted to pointout something about formations no one has mentioned yet...

Formation legality...
A Player on the line of scrimmage is said to be covered if there is at least 1 eligible reciever also on the line to their outside. The outermost offensive tackle lineman must be covered or the formation is illegal and a penalty is called.
Secondly, someone who is "covered up" is not an eligible reciever, and cannot go downfield, if they do, a penalty is called for ineligible reciever downfield.


Example 1: ineligible tight end

(WR1)-------(TE)(T)(G)(C)(G)(T)-------(WR2)

In this formation, the TE is coveredup and is an ineligible reciever... to solve this, Someone must moves into the backfield (either TE, or WR1).

---------------(TE)(T)(G)(C)(G)(T)-------(WR2)
(WR1)

or

(WR1)-------(T)(G)(C)(G)(T)-------(WR2)
-----------(TE)

In both of these formations, The TE is now an eligible reciever.



Example 2: Twin wr's
this formation is illegal... because the tackle is not covered.

(WR1)---------(T)(G)(C)(G)(T)
------(WR2)


To fix this...we do:

(WR1)---------(T)(G)(C)(G)(T)(TE)
------(WR2)
This is legal... because the tackle is covered by a Tight End.