Football and the ethics of sports

[Mursilis]

I just finished a GQ piece on Fred McNeill, a former star NFL linebacker now struggling with dementia at an early age.

http://www.gq.com/news-politics/big-issues/201102/jeanne-marie-laskas-nfl-concussions-fred-mcneill

Not only was this guy a great player, but he was also quite intelligent - he went on to become a lawyer and had a successful career before he began experiencing cognitive issues - forgetfulness, confusion, etc. During his playing career, he sustained multiple concussions, which his doctors have suggested were the cause of his current cognitive decline. Reading this story the same week as the death of Junior Seau, and after having read a multitude of other stories about real damage football does to players in the long-term, I'm questioning more and more my enjoyment of pro football. Can I enjoy the sport as much knowing these guys are destroying their bodies and maybe taking years off their life for my entertainment? Is it ethical to pay people to permanently damage their own or another's health simply for entertainment?

What are the thoughts of others on "gladiatorial" sports like football, MMA, and boxing?

 

[cybrsage]

If the people were forced to do it, I would say no. Since they are paid quite well for doing it, and not only do it willingly but worked for many years to obtain the job, I say it is fine to do.

They understood the risks. Sucks for those who get hurt, though.

 

[Mursilis]

If the people were forced to do it, I would say no. Since they are paid quite well for doing it, and not only do it willingly but worked for many years to obtain the job, I say it is fine to do.

They understood the risks. Sucks for those who get hurt, though.

A couple of points come to mind:

1. You could say the same about smokers, but the tobacco companies have paid out huge sums of money regardless.

2. Did they really understand the risks? This research about the long-term effects of multiple concussions is only now coming out in the last 5-10 years. Back in the 70's and 80's, most people did not know concussions could result in long-term damage.

3. The majority of football players are at the youth, high school, and college levels, and will never make the NFL or ever receive a dime for playing the game. Sports columnist Michael Wilbon has said that, knowing what we know now about the risks, he'd never let his son play football. I feel the same way about my son.

 

[ichy]

All the more reason to have your kids play soccer rather than American football.

 

[Atreus21]

A couple of points come to mind:

1. You could say the same about smokers, but the tobacco companies have paid out huge sums of money regardless.

2. Did they really understand the risks? This research about the long-term effects of multiple concussions is only now coming out in the last 5-10 years. Back in the 70's and 80's, most people did not know concussions could result in long-term damage.

3. The majority of football players are at the youth, high school, and college levels, and will never make the NFL or ever receive a dime for playing the game. Sports columnist Michael Wilbon has said that, knowing what we know now about the risks, he'd never let his son play football. I feel the same way about my son.

Hard to say, but I still lean on the side of, "You knew the risk when you took the job. Or at least you knew most of the risks."

Cops know the risks. So do firefighters and soldiers. And they're paid a whole lot less to not only put themselves at risk for injury, but enter into a job in which that is sometimes a duty.

If people want to watch football, and football players want to play football, in full knowledge of the risks or potential risks, I say leave it alone. I wouldn't subject my child to it in knowledge of the risks. Others might be willing to leave that decision to their child.

 

[Mursilis]

All the more reason to have your kids play soccer rather than American football.

My kids do in fact play soccer, but researchers are beginning to wonder about the long-term effects of all those headers. It's not just concussions causing brain damage - so-called sub-concussive impacts are suspected, in quantity, to result in some sort of damage.

 

[Mursilis]

Hard to say, but I still lean on the side of, "You knew the risk when you took the job. Or at least you knew most of the risks."

Cops know the risks. So do firefighters and soldiers. And they're paid a whole lot less to not only put themselves at risk for injury, but enter into a job in which that is sometimes a duty.

If people want to watch football, and football players want to play football, in full knowledge of the risks or potential risks, I say leave it alone. I wouldn't subject my child to it in knowledge of the risks. Others might be willing to leave that decision to their child.

Cops and firefighters are thought to be essential in society. Athletes really aren't, or at least at the same level.

As for any parent letting a child make a decision regarding his/her own long-term health without parental input, that sounds pretty negligent.

 

[dfuze]

Heard a caller to our local sports radio station bring up a good point yesterday. He said that players don't tackle anymore, they hit. They launch themselves at the other player and hope to knock them down rather than wrap them up.

 

[crashtestdummy]

If the people were forced to do it, I would say no. Since they are paid quite well for doing it, and not only do it willingly but worked for many years to obtain the job, I say it is fine to do.

They understood the risks. Sucks for those who get hurt, though.

Something I alluded to in the Junior Seau thread: You're right that they enter the sport of their own free will, but they do so because of the incentive structure provided by us consumers.

I don't advocate legally banning football, but these CTE stories have made me reconsider whether I want to be a football fan. It's hard to justify watching these people do this to themselves on a personal, ethical level, no matter how much I like the product.

 

[ichy]

My kids do in fact play soccer, but researchers are beginning to wonder about the long-term effects of all those headers. It's not just concussions causing brain damage - so-called sub-concussive impacts are suspected, in quantity, to result in some sort of damage.

Yeah but at a certain point you have to ask yourself which is worse, headers on soccer balls or leading a sedentary lifestyle. As much as we fret about concussions far more American kids are screwing up their health by turning into fat, immobile butterballs. All sports have some risk, but IMO the risk/reward ratio is much better with soccer than football.

 

[Mursilis]

Yeah but at a certain point you have to ask yourself which is worse, headers on soccer balls or leading a sedentary lifestyle. As much as we fret about concussions far more American kids are screwing up their health by turning into fat, immobile butterballs. All sports have some risk, but IMO the risk/reward ratio is much better with soccer than football.

Your dichotomy is a bit extreme - I merely tell my kids to avoid headers if they can, or at least only after the first bounce.

 

[WHAMPOM]

I just finished a GQ piece on Fred McNeill, a former star NFL linebacker now struggling with dementia at an early age.

http://www.gq.com/news-politics/big-issues/201102/jeanne-marie-laskas-nfl-concussions-fred-mcneill

Not only was this guy a great player, but he was also quite intelligent - he went on to become a lawyer and had a successful career before he began experiencing cognitive issues - forgetfulness, confusion, etc. During his playing career, he sustained multiple concussions, which his doctors have suggested were the cause of his current cognitive decline. Reading this story the same week as the death of Junior Seau, and after having read a multitude of other stories about real damage football does to players in the long-term, I'm questioning more and more my enjoyment of pro football. Can I enjoy the sport as much knowing these guys are destroying their bodies and maybe taking years off their life for my entertainment? Is it ethical to pay people to permanently damage their own or another's health simply for entertainment?

What are the thoughts of others on "gladiatorial" sports like football, MMA, and boxing?

Death and fame in the Coliseum. The good old days just like today! Want to add reality shows to your list of possible death and maiming?

 

[rcpratt]

Telling kids to avoid headers is asinine. The impact of an air-filled ball is so amazingly negligible compared to the kind of hits you see in handegg. Kids should learn how to head safely though...I'm sure a lot more damage has been done by kids sticking their faces where people are kicking.

 

[Genx87]

Heard a caller to our local sports radio station bring up a good point yesterday. He said that players don't tackle anymore, they hit. They launch themselves at the other player and hope to knock them down rather than wrap them up.

They have been doing this for years. I did this back in highschool and college(1992-2000). I would wrap but if possible use my body as a weapon to take them out. Often times my head was the weapon.

I learned this as a kid watching the NFL and college in the 80s. Also at high levels wrapping up isnt always ideal. It puts a lot of stress on a weak joint(shoulders).

That said as we learn more about this disease. I also will have a harder time letting my kids play football. They are finding injury in kids who only played highschool ball. It is rather scary. I am also under no illusions about my own play that my brain is a ticking time bomb as well.

 

[BoberFett]

Cops and firefighters are thought to be essential in society. Athletes really aren't, or at least at the same level.

Salaries say otherwise.

 

[Atreus21]

Cops and firefighters are thought to be essential in society. Athletes really aren't, or at least at the same level.

True, but they are still a profession in which one chooses to engage. They aren't drafted.

As for any parent letting a child make a decision regarding his/her own long-term health without parental input, that sounds pretty negligent.

Perhaps, but I shy from calling the parents of any football player negligent.

 

[cybrsage]

A couple of points come to mind:

1. You could say the same about smokers, but the tobacco companies have paid out huge sums of money regardless.

The tobacco companies used deceptive practices...that is how they lost.

2. Did they really understand the risks? This research about the long-term effects of multiple concussions is only now coming out in the last 5-10 years. Back in the 70's and 80's, most people did not know concussions could result in long-term damage.

Anyone who does not understand that having multiple hits to the head can cause brain damage is not very smart to begin with. Boxing has given us way too many examples to ignore.

3. The majority of football players are at the youth, high school, and college levels, and will never make the NFL or ever receive a dime for playing the game. Sports columnist Michael Wilbon has said that, knowing what we know now about the risks, he'd never let his son play football. I feel the same way about my son.

Correct, but I again simply say that anyone who does not understand that a full contact sport can cause you physical damage is really not playing with a full deck to start with. Of course, after looking at how high school football players act, I think we can safely say they do not have a full deck to start with.

 

[cybrsage]

heard a caller to our local sports radio station bring up a good point yesterday. He said that players don't tackle anymore, they hit. They launch themselves at the other player and hope to knock them down rather than wrap them up.

Go Steelers!!!!!

 

[NeoV]

When the saying is "you know the risks of playing football", it's referring to blowing out your knees, breaking limbs, dislocations, etc - I'm quite certain that "long term brain damage" isn't on the list of risks they knew/know about.

I think we'll see some more rule changes in the next few years

Kickoffs will be removed altogether
Helmet's will require more padding - which is another discussion entirely


And I agree about tackling - it's the problem with people like James Harrison - he isn't trying to tackle people, he's trying to light them up with the crown of his helmet

My son just turned 11, and is asking to play this fall - he's only played flag thus far, and he's very good - not sure what I'm going to do to be honest.

 

[Genx87]

One idea people toss around is to remove the helmet all together. It sounds crazy but the incidence of using the crown of your head as a weapon increased once the players had the idea their head was protected.

 

[Double Trouble]

How many players have played the game (at all levels), and how many players end up with serious consequences from the head trauma? I don't have any stats on that, but I'd guess that the number is very low and the percentage is also low. The risk factor for that job is likely much less than, say, a police officer. Personally I don't doubt there's an impact, much like boxers having problems later in life, but I think the scope of the problem is overstated now because it's a hot topic.

Even now that the risks are becoming better understood, how many NFL players do you suppose will simply walk away from the game? Very very few, if any.

 

[davmat787]

I have mixed feelings on this, but lean to the side of "you knew the risks". Also, I expect a combination of education, rule changes, and science/technology applied to better equipment to help mitigate the risks further. Also:

Lions center can't justify memory suit

Raiola said NFL players know the condition is a hazard and one of the rigors of their job.

"I think when you sign up for this job, you know what you're getting into," Raiola said Tuesday.

That's why the 11-year veteran couldn't imagine himself suing the league for health problems as more than 1,000 former players have done.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/7...-detroit-lions-expects-memory-loss-sue-league

 

[Brainonska511]

I have mixed feelings on this, but lean to the side of "you knew the risks". Also, I expect a combination of education, rule changes, and science/technology applied to better equipment to help mitigate the risks further. Also:

Lions center can't justify memory suit



http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/7...-detroit-lions-expects-memory-loss-sue-league

I don't think memory loss is incorporated in the "you knew the risks." The research in the area between repeated concussions and repeat, mild brain trauma and future dementia is relatively new.

That, combined with (the facts as I see them) a) being pushed to use their heads as weapons and get in hard hits (contributing to the brain-trauma problem), and b) that many of these players didn't really have much of a choice. They spend their years in college playing football instead of getting educated, so their 'choice' (more like a Hobson choice) is to spend life back where they came from with a useless college degree, or to maybe make it big in the NFL and come out with some cash before some crippling, career ending injury.

 

[Zebo]

It's a free country. Or should be as it relates to voluntary activities. No need to babysit these men who know full well dangers of their profession. Riding a motorcycle and many other activities is 100x more dangerous than football - what do you want to do lock ppl in a rubber rooms all their life for their own good?

Part of living is competition, exhilaration from speed and danger. I've fucked up my body many times. Got motorcross tire tracks across my back. Broke 14 bones big ones. Scars all over and would not change a thing. Had time of my life doing it. Football was a joke honestly. I played running back and got hit by boys almost twice my size and never got hurt.

Bottom line - liberty is not without risks.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

All the more reason to have your kids play soccer rugby rather than American football.

FTFMen.