• Guest, The rules for the P & N subforum have been updated to prohibit "ad hominem" or personal attacks against other posters. See the full details in the post "Politics and News Rules & Guidelines."

Food Stamps

Matt1970

Lifer
Mar 19, 2007
12,320
2
0


How come we can figure out that handouts to wild animals creates dependency yet giving to to humans is helping them out?
 
Last edited:
Feb 6, 2007
16,432
1
81
The rich would be insane to get rid of food stamps. No one has ever revolted because they couldn't get an iPad. But if someone is starving? They'll kill your whole family without thinking twice. Food stamps allow the rich to fleece the poor without the serious threat of revolution. Yes, I'm being somewhat tongue in cheek.

Abuse of the food stamp system infuriates me because I've watched every single one of my friends do it. But the alternatives are much worse. We can't get rid of food stamps when the minimum wage isn't enough to cover housing and food in many places in the country. It just doesn't work.
 

Matt1970

Lifer
Mar 19, 2007
12,320
2
0
The rich would be insane to get rid of food stamps. No one has ever revolted because they couldn't get an iPad. But if someone is starving? They'll kill your whole family without thinking twice. Food stamps allow the rich to fleece the poor without the serious threat of revolution. Yes, I'm being somewhat tongue in cheek.

Abuse of the food stamp system infuriates me because I've watched every single one of my friends do it. But the alternatives are much worse. We can't get rid of food stamps when the minimum wage isn't enough to cover housing and food in many places in the country. It just doesn't work.
Exactly how would the rich get rid of Food Stamps?
 
Feb 6, 2007
16,432
1
81
Exactly how would the rich get rid of Food Stamps?
By rich I'm talking about the people in positions of power; the ruling class. If you don't see the influence that wealthy people have in politics and the overall power structure of our country, there's no helping you. But I was being facetious anyway; obviously the politicians aren't going to cut off everyone's food stamps. I just think it's odd how people complain about food stamps without considering what the alternatives would be. Desperate people do desperate things.
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
17,844
1
0
I suppose it would be fair to stop handing out food if you gave them land to grow their own food on.
 

nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
15,669
6
0
By rich I'm talking about the people in positions of power; the ruling class. If you don't see the influence that wealthy people have in politics and the overall power structure of our country, there's no helping you. But I was being facetious anyway; obviously the politicians aren't going to cut off everyone's food stamps. I just think it's odd how people complain about food stamps without considering what the alternatives would be. Desperate people do desperate things.
You are mistakenly assuming that hungry people are going to get off their lazy butts and march across town and steal food from the rich.

Instead they will steal from/eat their neighbors. Kinda like how it works now.

I suppose it would be fair to stop handing out food if you gave them land to grow their own food on.
There is plenty of land in Alaska.
 

michal1980

Diamond Member
Mar 7, 2003
8,019
43
91
It's not evil. Just stupid.

Or would you like to see humans compete for food with others of their species in the same way that wild animals do?

Be careful what you wish for.
Stupid is when you get people dependant on a life time of handouts. Because the choice between working and not is made tens of thosands of times easier.

I'm all for helping people out from time to time. I'm completly against cradle to grave handouts. At some point, capable people should be allowed to sink or swim on their own merits, rather then continue to exist as a parasite of the work of others.
 

IGBT

Lifer
Jul 16, 2001
17,733
52
91
let em buy booze and cig's wit their food stamps and they will kill them selves.
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
It's a cute talking point, making the rounds of the wing-nut web sites where it makes the faithful feel all smug and obediently outraged. Unfortunately, as with most partisan propaganda, it is dishonest. The claim about why feeding wildlife is prohibited is a straw man. The real reasons don't fit the RNC mythology:

  • Human food is unhealthy for wildlife. From Bryce Canyon, for example - "Most animals have very specific natural diets and therefore specific kinds of digestive bacteria. Being fed human food causes the wrong type of bacteria to become dominant in their stomachs. Soon these animals are no longer able to digest their natural foods."

  • Wild animals are dangerous. If fed, wild animals may become too comfortable with humans, leading to attacks and disease. From Yosemite, for example - "These animals MAY BE DANGEROUS! By feeding them you risk serious injury or death! And if you are injured, the animal will be killed as a result of your irresponsibility. There is always a risk of transmission of often-fatal diseases, such as black plague or Hanta virus." Yellowstone also lists not feeding wildlife under its Safety section, as part of an overall emphasis on keeping a minimum distance of 25 yards from all wildlife.
But I understand, facts aren't nearly so satisfying as emotional propaganda, so let's run with that for a minute. If Republicans are are so obsessed with free-loaders becoming dependent, they should put their money where there faith lies. I say it's time to cut off the GOP's own welfare queens, the red states who have become so dependent on tax money from blue states. Let's see Republicans lead by example.

:)
 
Last edited:

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
29,140
13,222
136
It's nice that you can be so honest as to admit that you think of poor people as animals. :thumbsup:
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
Wanted to check up on this one and it's true!

http://www.nps.gov/grca/naturescience/animals.htm

If an animal becomes addicted to handouts I wonder what the park service does? They'd either need to put them down or retrain the animal.
Nice cherry-picking there. Here's their whole article:
To many people, the opportunity to view the wildlife in Grand Canyon National Park is as amazing as the spectacular views. Mule deer and elk may be commonly seen in the South Rim Village, endangered California condors soar majestically above the canyon, and other wildlife including ravens, lizards, and rock squirrels are common along the rim. Visitors to Grand Canyon may also have the opportunity to glimpse bighorn sheep, coyotes, ringtails and other species. Mountain lions, bobcats, badgers and rattlesnakes are less commonly seen, but are present in the park.

All wildlife in Grand Canyon National Park is protected by federal law. Most people know that hunting and trapping are not allowed in national parks, yet many people may not realize that approaching or feeding animals is also prohibited. These actions are against park regulations because they are harmful to animals. When you approach too closely to wildlife, you may cause them stress and interfere with behaviors necessary for their survival.

Animals that are fed by people become dependent on human food
, and may lose their natural fear of humans and their ability to forage for natural foods. There is a lot of truth to the saying, “a fed animal is a dead animal.” In addition to losing their foraging ability, animals that have been fed are less likely to survive other reasons. Animals that have been fed from cars congregate near roadways and are at a high risk of being killed by vehicle collisions.

In recent years, the National Park Service has had to euthanize deer, coyotes, rock squirrels and other animals at Grand Canyon that had become overly aggressive towards humans and/or had become completely dependant on food handouts. Park rangers work to preserve and protect park resources, including wildlife. NPS staff find it heartbreaking when they are forced to euthanize animals whose aggressive behaviors were caused by being fed by well-meaning people.

Feeding animals puts everyone in potentially hazardous situations. People who feed animals may be bitten or otherwise injured by the animal they are feeding. Other visitors are at risk as they may be harmed by aggressive animals that have previously been fed.


Seemingly tame animals are still wild, and may behave unpredictably. Animals may use their teeth, claws, hooves, antlers, or horns to defend themselves. View wildlife from a safe distance. Leave animals enough room to make an escape if they feel threatened. You are too close to an animal if your presence causes them to move.

Many visitors to Grand Canyon may think that species such as rattlesnakes and mountain lions pose the greatest risks to people. In fact, people are much more likely to be injured by rock squirrels, or by deer or elk. During the summer, rock squirrels commonly bite visitors who are feeding them, or who are just holding their finger out towards them. Park rangers regularly tell visitors that squirrels are the most dangerous animal in the park because squirrel bites are so frequent.

There are other serious hazards associated with wildlife. Numerous species, including rodents, squirrels, coyotes, fox, bats, and mountain lions, may carry infectious diseases such as Hantavirus, rabies, or plague. In some situations, these diseases may be transmitted through simple contact, such as touching or feeding wildlife. In recent years, Hantavirus, rabies and plague all have been documented in the park’s wildlife populations.

Grand Canyon National Park is a sanctuary and home for wildlife. By treating wildlife with respect and not approaching or feeding them, you are aiding their chance for survival. By keeping wildlife wild, you are protecting their safety—and yours.
Context matters.
 

Jhhnn

No Lifer
Nov 11, 1999
62,345
14,566
136
In a modern society, people are very much dependent on each other, regardless of libertopian ravings to the contrary. We have but to examine the artifacts of modern life to understand that. The more advanced a society becomes, the more that becomes the truth.

It's all bound together by divisions of labor, specializations, and commerce.

The other part of it that the usual suspects refuse to recognize is that food, in this country, has absolutely no scarcity whatsoever, other than that caused by maldistribution. We throw away more food than we give away, and the act of doing both is actually beneficial to food producers. Whatever food the govt distributes for free is money in the pockets of those who produce it.

The other part of it all that's deliberately ignored is that the sacred Free Market has tripped all over itself in the past wrt food. An over supply of food in the early 1930's led to precipitous price drops and a situation where millions went hungry because there was no profit in harvesting & bringing crops to market.

The so-called Free Market system has also failed to distribute rewards in a fashion where it supports itself in terms of providing for middle class incomes in the face of ever increasing living expenses. Median families & below would be earning ~40% more today if the income distribution curve of 1980 had been maintained, while the top 1% would be earning about half of what they now do. Food stamps don't even begin to make up for that shift of income to the tippy top.

Food stamps? Socialism? Of course it is, but it's piss poor socialism compared to what we had prior to Saint Ronnie, when unions pushed wages up & higher taxes at the top kept the rich & well connected from taking the whole pie, when offshoring was just a gleam in the eye of American capitalists & when PEG's hadn't discovered just how profitable the looting of otherwise healthy companies really was.

Can't figure it out? You're not supposed to, sillies. That's why you've been given Ideologues & pundits to worship, slogans to chant & a sense of moral superiority where there is none. Think you're safe, that you're some sort of special snowflake because you sing along with the choir? Hardly. Whether you realize it or not, you're on the hit list- they'll get to you eventually, and it'll be your own fault, but not in ways you'll ever recognize.

So, uhh, you have a job & resent paying taxes at all? So did a lot of other people before too many became enthralled by the ideology of greed, before they came to worship wealth & those who possess it as false Gods, before "I got mine -Screw you!" became the slogan of too many people who don't realize that we depend on each other more than they're willing to admit.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
It's not evil. Just stupid.

Or would you like to see humans compete for food with others of their species in the same way that wild animals do?

Be careful what you wish for.
Because rich urban liberals fear the minorities in their midst and know themselves well enough to understand they have neither the means or will to defend themselves. Lke Rome in the decline stages, they're too decadent and effete to do anything but pay tribute to the Visigoths lest they come down from places like Harlem and start slitting Manhattanite throats.
 

child of wonder

Diamond Member
Aug 31, 2006
8,307
175
106
Nice cherry-picking there. Here's their whole article:

*snip*
Wasn't trying to cherry pick, the article I took my quote from is different than the one you posted.

Wildlife Alert

Never approach wild animals. Photograph all wildlife from the safety of your vehicle. Use telephoto lenses and observe quietly. It is dangerous, and illegal, to feed wild animals in a national park. Violators will be fined. Wildlife can become dependent upon handouts and lose their ability to hunt and forage. Such animals lose their fear of humans. They can become aggressive and bite, kick, or gore. Many are struck by cars while searching for handouts. Help us keep wildlife wild. Never feed or approach wildlife.
There is a "read more" link right after that which goes to the article you quoted.

Nevertheless, the fact still remains that one of reasons feeding the animals is illegal is because it retards their natural ability to forage and hunt for food.

That isn't a direct correlation to humans and food stamps, but the similarities are enough for the irony to be noticeable.
 

michal1980

Diamond Member
Mar 7, 2003
8,019
43
91
In a modern society, people are very much dependent on each other, regardless of libertopian ravings to the contrary. We have but to examine the artifacts of modern life to understand that. The more advanced a society becomes, the more that becomes the truth.

It's all bound together by divisions of labor, specializations, and commerce.

The other part of it that the usual suspects refuse to recognize is that food, in this country, has absolutely no scarcity whatsoever, other than that caused by maldistribution. We throw away more food than we give away, and the act of doing both is actually beneficial to food producers. Whatever food the govt distributes for free is money in the pockets of those who produce it.

The other part of it all that's deliberately ignored is that the sacred Free Market has tripped all over itself in the past wrt food. An over supply of food in the early 1930's led to precipitous price drops and a situation where millions went hungry because there was no profit in harvesting & bringing crops to market.

The so-called Free Market system has also failed to distribute rewards in a fashion where it supports itself in terms of providing for middle class incomes in the face of ever increasing living expenses. Median families & below would be earning ~40% more today if the income distribution curve of 1980 had been maintained, while the top 1% would be earning about half of what they now do. Food stamps don't even begin to make up for that shift of income to the tippy top.

Food stamps? Socialism? Of course it is, but it's piss poor socialism compared to what we had prior to Saint Ronnie, when unions pushed wages up & higher taxes at the top kept the rich & well connected from taking the whole pie, when offshoring was just a gleam in the eye of American capitalists & when PEG's hadn't discovered just how profitable the looting of otherwise healthy companies really was.

Can't figure it out? You're not supposed to, sillies. That's why you've been given Ideologues & pundits to worship, slogans to chant & a sense of moral superiority where there is none. Think you're safe, that you're some sort of special snowflake because you sing along with the choir? Hardly. Whether you realize it or not, you're on the hit list- they'll get to you eventually, and it'll be your own fault, but not in ways you'll ever recognize.

So, uhh, you have a job & resent paying taxes at all? So did a lot of other people before too many became enthralled by the ideology of greed, before they came to worship wealth & those who possess it as false Gods, before "I got mine -Screw you!" became the slogan of too many people who don't realize that we depend on each other more than they're willing to admit.
nice rant. was there a point there?
 

Jhhnn

No Lifer
Nov 11, 1999
62,345
14,566
136
Because rich urban liberals fear the minorities in their midst and know themselves well enough to understand they have neither the means or will to defend themselves. Lke Rome in the decline stages, they're too decadent and effete to do anything but pay tribute to the Visigoths lest they come down from places like Harlem and start slitting Manhattanite throats.
As if the real looting weren't already coming from an entirely different quarter, as if the pen weren't mightier than the sword. As if the term "Lootocracy" weren't all too true.

As if the whole notion of defending oneself from trumped up & imaginary threats means anything in the presence of one of society's most specialized & effective groups of people, law enforcement. Like I said, we all depend on each other.

Of course, tomorrow is the 4th of July, when fringewhacks will raise Old Glory & preach secession in the same breath, when they'll preach insurrection against lawful govt to defend the Constitution, and when they'll romanticize the Lost Cause as if it weren't a cancer that's never been completely rooted out. They'll go on and on about Libertopian ideals, as if they weren't begging to become bugs on the windshield of financialized international capitalism.
 

Matt1970

Lifer
Mar 19, 2007
12,320
2
0
One that inevitably went completely over your head, as I was sure it would.
Your rants always seem to be about tax rates, shifting jobs overseas and Reagan. All ills that have befouled our country are due to the upper class not having to pay as much in taxes. Get over it. Our whole country started buying all the cheapest crap we could find back in the 70’s and the vast majority of it was from Japan or Taiwan. There went the jobs. Jobs go where the money goes.
 

Lanyap

Elite Member
Dec 23, 2000
7,324
1,082
126
Nice cherry-picking there. Here's their whole article:

snip

Context matters.

Do I need to get werepossum in here to explain this to you?


From the OP's post:
Their stated reason for the policy is because the animals will grow dependent on handouts and will not learn to take care of themselves.
Their stated reason from your link:
Animals that are fed by people become dependent on human food, and may lose their natural fear of humans and their ability to forage for natural foods. There is a lot of truth to the saying, “a fed animal is a dead animal.” In addition to losing their foraging ability, animals that have been fed are less likely to survive other reasons. Animals that have been fed from cars congregate near roadways and are at a high risk of being killed by vehicle collisions.

In recent years, the National Park Service has had to euthanize deer, coyotes, rock squirrels and other animals at Grand Canyon that had become overly aggressive towards humans and/or had become completely dependant on food handouts.
 

DaveSimmons

Elite Member
Aug 12, 2001
40,730
670
126
As noted above, be careful about wishing that the poor would behave like starving bears and wolves, willing to do anything to feed.

Especially when you've fought for their second amendment right to be well-armed and bear-armed.

Gun-toting, hungry, with natural prey such as your house within easy reach.

Sure, in your Libertarian fantasies you'll use your own guns to mow them down by the score, but eventually the guns will jam, the horde will overwhelm your house, and they'll feast on your succulent flesh.

This ends today's lesson.
 

ASK THE COMMUNITY