Food companies have lost control of safety.

[vhx]

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05...ku3l7MWOnUlfTNemOp4M+A

Increasingly, the corporations that supply Americans with processed foods are unable to guarantee the safety of their ingredients. In this case, ConAgra could not pinpoint which of the more than 25 ingredients in its pies was carrying salmonella. Other companies do not even know who is supplying their ingredients, let alone if those suppliers are screening the items for microbes and other potential dangers, interviews and documents show.

Yet the supply chain for ingredients in processed foods ? from flavorings to flour to fruits and vegetables ? is becoming more complex and global as the drive to keep food costs down intensifies. As a result, almost every element, not just red meat and poultry, is now a potential carrier of pathogens, government and industry officials concede.

You know it's bad when the companies can't even pinpoint what is going on. Is it just me or has food gotten way out of control in this country? So many additives, preservatives, chemicals, and replacements it's a question as to some of this 'food' is really food. Everyday it's one more thing found to be toxic or poisonous and everyone always says to me, "Everything is toxic these days!" or "Everything causes cancer, who cares!", like that makes it ok.

Just the other day it was found food wrapper coating chemicals were making it into the food it was being wrapped in and found in 10/10 of their test subjects bloodstreams. The chemical used may be linked to cancer. The first person I told this to didn't seem to care at all.

Why does no one seem to care what's going on in their food anymore? Even if you don't eat 'healthy' (which I don't at all) it should disturb you that companies can't even QC their products nor be bothered to research the chemical additives. And with the US about to fall within the UN's food trade commission "Codex Alimentarius" (which classifies nutrients as toxins and allowing chemicals that have been banned?!?WTF?) I don't see this getting any better. /rant

 

[Sacrilege]

You're going to die from something anyway. The free market will sort things out. We need less government intrusion in our lives. If you don't trust food, grow your own. You sound like some corporation hating Socialist. The companies that make our food take their responsibilities seriously and keep us safe. You mention processed foods as bad, but fresh vegetables and meats also carry pathogens. RANT REBUTTED.

 

[Acanthus]

Deregulation of th 5 companies that control 80% of the united states' food is a neccesity according to the republican agenda

 

[vhx]

Originally posted by: Sacrilege
You're going to die from something anyway. The free market will sort things out. We need less government intrusion in our lives. If you don't trust food, grow your own. You sound like some corporation hating Socialist. The companies that make our food take their responsibilities seriously and keep us safe. You mention processed foods as bad, but fresh vegetables and meats also carry pathogens. RANT REBUTTED.

I can't tell if this is a joke post or not, but I'll bite. And yes I could die from anything. I could die from a car accident, should cars not carry air bags anymore? And yes we grow some of our own food. Is it possible to grow all of it, sure if I had a farm, time, and the land area needed; Which I don't. A corporate hating socialist? Nice attack with no foundation. Yes I hate corporations that fail to take responsibility (which seems to be many as of late) does that make me a socialist or hate all corporations? Uh, no. Corporations take their responsibilities seriously and keep us safe? That's the entire point of the thread, seriously did you even look at the article or are you this desperate to troll? And your straw man arguments did not rebutt any rant. In fact, epic fail. Go troll elsewhere.

 

[daveymark]

Originally posted by: Sacrilege
You're going to die from something anyway. The free market will sort things out. We need less government intrusion in our lives. If you don't trust food, grow your own. You sound like some corporation hating Socialist. The companies that make our food take their responsibilities seriously and keep us safe. You mention processed foods as bad, but fresh vegetables and meats also carry pathogens. RANT REBUTTED.

on the contrary - over regulation by government, or a complete takeover of the company by the government, will be the solution to this. You need to understand, people are too stupid to look after themselves. Government should look after us, that way we will be safe and secure, and live forever. Government is always the better choice since they look out for our best interests. As an added incentive, all government run programs are clean and transparent, there's never any red tape, and things are always run smoothly and efficiently. Every time I talk to a low level government employee, they are always talking about how hard it is to not do work, and they have to work work work all day long, it's definitely not easy. If there's any issue with a government run program, it's probably due to those pesky meddling idiots from the private sector.

 

[Asslee]

Originally posted by: Sacrilege
You're going to die from something anyway. The free market will sort things out. We need less government intrusion in our lives. If you don't trust food, grow your own. You sound like some corporation hating Socialist. The companies that make our food take their responsibilities seriously and keep us safe. You mention processed foods as bad, but fresh vegetables and meats also carry pathogens. RANT REBUTTED.

While we are all going to die from something, wouldn't you rather the death be caused by something a bit more natural than a food wrapper that contains chemicals?

Some companies may take responsibilities seriously, but do you really think they care about each individual enough to keep them safe? If so, I'd venture to say that's a little naive. Companies are typically more concerned with profit than an individual's safety.

It's a fast paced world, and people often don't think deeply enough to consider what's really going on around them.

 

[babylon5]

Originally posted by: Sacrilege
You're going to die from something anyway. The free market will sort things out. We need less government intrusion in our lives. If you don't trust food, grow your own. You sound like some corporation hating Socialist. The companies that make our food take their responsibilities seriously and keep us safe. You mention processed foods as bad, but fresh vegetables and meats also carry pathogens. RANT REBUTTED.

Sarcastic meter at full speed?

 

[sandorski]

Regulation is your friend, Corproations are not.

 

[bamacre]

What makes you think further regulation will make you any safer? Let's not kid ourselves, the industry is already regulated. More regulation may make it a little safer, but it certainly will make it more expensive. Often, people don't consider the costs involved with regulations. It may not be a big deal for you, but poor people need to eat, too. And prices are already going up.

People should be concerned. They aught to be careful about what they put in their bodies. And negligent businesses should be punished appropriately. But we shouldn't punish all of them, we shouldn't assume their guilt before it's been proven.

Originally posted by: sandorski
Regulation is your friend, Corproations are not.

Corporations have government in their pockets. Much of the regulations in place are there to stifle competition.

Most understand that when you trade your freedom for security, you get neither.

But for some reason, very few understand that when you trade your economic freedom for economic security, you still get neither.

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: bamacre
What makes you think further regulation will make you any safer? Let's not kid ourselves, the industry is already regulated.

You're completely full of shit. It was widely-reported recently that most food companies were "self regulated." Thank the morons @ Bush Central and the de-fanged FDA under GOP control for that one. :roll:

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: bamacre
What makes you think further regulation will make you any safer? Let's not kid ourselves, the industry is already regulated.

You're completely full of shit. It was widely-reported recently that most food companies were "self regulated." Thank the morons @ Bush Central and the de-fanged FDA under GOP control for that one. :roll:

You don't think anyone died from FDA-approved medicines under Clinton's watch?

Hey, if you want regulatory agencies like the FDA, you have to have them while both parties have power. Can't pick and choose. Of course a free market alternative wouldn't change no matter who's in office, would it?

Hey, people wanted government to get rid of drugs, too. We see how that went. Look, giving government the authority to do something certainly doesn't mean it is going to get done, nor does it mean it will be done well, either.

Interesting listen...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ta7q1amDAN4

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: bamacre
What makes you think further regulation will make you any safer? Let's not kid ourselves, the industry is already regulated.

You're completely full of shit. It was widely-reported recently that most food companies were "self regulated." Thank the morons @ Bush Central and the de-fanged FDA under GOP control for that one. :roll:

You don't think anyone died from FDA-approved medicines under Clinton's watch?

Hey, if you want regulatory agencies like the FDA, you have to have them while both parties have power. Can't pick and choose. Of course a free market alternative wouldn't change no matter who's in office, would it?

Hey, people wanted government to get rid of drugs, too. We see how that went. Look, giving government the authority to do something certainly doesn't mean it is going to get done, nor does it mean it will be done well, either.

Interesting listen...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ta7q1amDAN4

You're the one who said regulation wouldn't have any effect. I strongly disagree, and of course I want orgs like the FDA watching over our food safety. Just recall that peanut company in TX who killed 5 people and infected nearly 500 people with salmonella after self-regulating their plant's cleanliness. And then promptly went bankrupt when shut down for having rats dumping feces into their products. Fun stuff, huh?

 

[anandmark]

Contact your reps to oppose HR875,the "food safety modernization act".This bill could eliminate organic food by making the regulations too expensive to comply with. Companies like monsanto will have a stranglehold on our food supply if not stopped.Genetically modified foods are nutritionally lacking,carcinogenic and can permanently weaken your immune system.www.garynull.com has an excellent article on GM food.Also have your reps oppose the codex regulations that would take away nutritional supplements except by prescription only.

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: bamacre
What makes you think further regulation will make you any safer? Let's not kid ourselves, the industry is already regulated.

You're completely full of shit. It was widely-reported recently that most food companies were "self regulated." Thank the morons @ Bush Central and the de-fanged FDA under GOP control for that one. :roll:

You don't think anyone died from FDA-approved medicines under Clinton's watch?

Hey, if you want regulatory agencies like the FDA, you have to have them while both parties have power. Can't pick and choose. Of course a free market alternative wouldn't change no matter who's in office, would it?

Hey, people wanted government to get rid of drugs, too. We see how that went. Look, giving government the authority to do something certainly doesn't mean it is going to get done, nor does it mean it will be done well, either.

Interesting listen...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ta7q1amDAN4

You're the one who said regulation wouldn't have any effect. I strongly disagree, and of course I want orgs like the FDA watching over our food safety. Just recall that peanut company in TX who killed 5 people and infected nearly 500 people with salmonella after self-regulating their plant's cleanliness. And then promptly went bankrupt when shut down for having rats dumping feces into their products. Fun stuff, huh?

They went bankrupt, and shut down? Was that of the government's doing? Or did people/businesses stop buying their products?

I don't understand this push. Sure I don't like to see people get sick nor die from eating food. But let's put this in perspective. How many people die every year from alcohol-related accidents? Murder by guns? How many from food-poisoning? A LOT less than the other two. Yet are we looking to ban vehicles? Alcohol? Are we pushing some sort of mandatory device in vehicles that won't allow a car to start if it detects a certain level of alcohol? Are we pushing for a ban on handguns? I guess some clueless people may, but most people aren't. So who is pushing for this further regulation? Big companies. Why? Because regulations cost money, and small competitors to bigger companies can't afford to implement said regulations. And when these regulations are imposed, they simply go out of business, and the larger companies have less competition. Then they can raise prices and increase profits. Big business loves big government.

 

[CitizenKain]

Originally posted by: bamacre
What makes you think further regulation will make you any safer? Let's not kid ourselves, the industry is already regulated. More regulation may make it a little safer, but it certainly will make it more expensive. Often, people don't consider the costs involved with regulations. It may not be a big deal for you, but poor people need to eat, too. And prices are already going up.

People should be concerned. They aught to be careful about what they put in their bodies. And negligent businesses should be punished appropriately. But we shouldn't punish all of them, we shouldn't assume their guilt before it's been proven.

So how exactly does less regulation make food safety better then it currently is? I guess I'm not seeing how suddenly Nestle not having to bother with removing rat feces from their baby formula to improve their shareholders margins is making things better.

 

[Phokus]

1) You can't trust the NY Times, it's liberal propaganda

2) It's the government's fault, abolish the FDA

3) The free market will sort this out... eventually these companies will have to pay the piper after a few thousand people die of poisoning and they'll clean their act up... corporations always deserve a second chance!

4) YOU SOUND LIKE A SOCIALIST!

5) Rush Limbaugh says you're WRONG

I think i covered all the GOP talking points.

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: CitizenKain

Originally posted by: bamacre
What makes you think further regulation will make you any safer? Let's not kid ourselves, the industry is already regulated. More regulation may make it a little safer, but it certainly will make it more expensive. Often, people don't consider the costs involved with regulations. It may not be a big deal for you, but poor people need to eat, too. And prices are already going up.

People should be concerned. They aught to be careful about what they put in their bodies. And negligent businesses should be punished appropriately. But we shouldn't punish all of them, we shouldn't assume their guilt before it's been proven.

So how exactly does less regulation make food safety better then it currently is? I guess I'm not seeing how suddenly Nestle not having to bother with removing rat feces from their baby formula to improve their shareholders margins is making things better.

Well, there is never no regulation. You are regulation, we all are. You decide what brand of baby formula you buy, you decide what microprocessor is in your computer. And the more choices you have, the better the regulator you are, the better the product you can choose. Have we forgot how capitalism works? The powers of choice and competition? Is it perfect? No. No system is "perfect." And certainly there is a price to pay to live in a free society. And after thousands of years, people decided it was worth it. There are just risks in life that are unavoidable, and at times, the potential result can be fatal. You cannot drive to work every day and not risk losing your life because someone else on the road makes a mistake.

Now, just hypothetically speaking, let's assume there is zero government regulation of the food industry, and one day you eat a candy bar which causes you to become grossly ill. You are able to prove in a court that the company was negligent and allowed some chemical or whatever to get into the candy bar. You win the case, and it costs the company millions of dollars. The company figures out that it is more expensive for them to take the risks of similar lawsuits than to clean up their factory, and so they do clean up their act.

Now, let's say that there are heavy government-imposed regulations in place, yet the same scenario happens. Of course it may not happen as often, but let's say it does happen to you. You can prove in court that the company was negligent, they somehow allowed some chemical or whatever to get into the candy bar you purchased. But their defense is now stronger, they can show the court that they abide by 100% of all Federal Government regulations relevant to their products and factories. And because of this, they ask, how could we do better than this? They aren't negligent, this was a freak accident, they are sorry. You lose the case. They don't clean up their act, not any more than they have to according to federal regulations. And by the way, they donate half a million bucks a year to the politicians who wrote the regulations. How much do you donate to politicians?

 

[OCGuy]

Its obvious we need the government to control all food that is grown/sold/consumed in this country. We cannot trust the private sector.

In fact, lets just go all the way: Text

 

[Phokus]

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: bamacre
What makes you think further regulation will make you any safer? Let's not kid ourselves, the industry is already regulated.

You're completely full of shit. It was widely-reported recently that most food companies were "self regulated." Thank the morons @ Bush Central and the de-fanged FDA under GOP control for that one. :roll:

You don't think anyone died from FDA-approved medicines under Clinton's watch?

Hey, if you want regulatory agencies like the FDA, you have to have them while both parties have power. Can't pick and choose. Of course a free market alternative wouldn't change no matter who's in office, would it?

Hey, people wanted government to get rid of drugs, too. We see how that went. Look, giving government the authority to do something certainly doesn't mean it is going to get done, nor does it mean it will be done well, either.

Interesting listen...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ta7q1amDAN4

Dude, the corporations have been lobbying (successfully) for the FDA to look away. The FDA hasn't had teeth in a long time. PBS did a special on one of the FDA doctors blowing the whistle because the corps had the FDA scientists in their back pocket.

 

[Phokus]

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: CitizenKain

Originally posted by: bamacre
What makes you think further regulation will make you any safer? Let's not kid ourselves, the industry is already regulated. More regulation may make it a little safer, but it certainly will make it more expensive. Often, people don't consider the costs involved with regulations. It may not be a big deal for you, but poor people need to eat, too. And prices are already going up.

People should be concerned. They aught to be careful about what they put in their bodies. And negligent businesses should be punished appropriately. But we shouldn't punish all of them, we shouldn't assume their guilt before it's been proven.

So how exactly does less regulation make food safety better then it currently is? I guess I'm not seeing how suddenly Nestle not having to bother with removing rat feces from their baby formula to improve their shareholders margins is making things better.

Well, there is never no regulation. You are regulation, we all are. You decide what brand of baby formula you buy, you decide what microprocessor is in your computer. And the more choices you have, the better the regulator you are, the better the product you can choose. Have we forgot how capitalism works? The powers of choice and competition? Is it perfect? No. No system is "perfect." And certainly there is a price to pay to live in a free society. And after thousands of years, people decided it was worth it. There are just risks in life that are unavoidable, and at times, the potential result can be fatal. You cannot drive to work every day and not risk losing your life because someone else on the road makes a mistake.

Now, just hypothetically speaking, let's assume there is zero government regulation of the food industry, and one day you eat a candy bar which causes you to become grossly ill. You are able to prove in a court that the company was negligent and allowed some chemical or whatever to get into the candy bar. You win the case, and it costs the company millions of dollars. The company figures out that it is more expensive for them to take the risks of similar lawsuits than to clean up their factory, and so they do clean up their act.

Now, let's say that there are heavy government-imposed regulations in place, yet the same scenario happens. Of course it may not happen as often, but let's say it does happen to you. You can prove in court that the company was negligent, they somehow allowed some chemical or whatever to get into the candy bar you purchased. But their defense is now stronger, they can show the court that they abide by 100% of all Federal Government regulations relevant to their products and factories. And because of this, they ask, how could we do better than this? They aren't negligent, this was a freak accident, they are sorry. You lose the case. They don't clean up their act, not any more than they have to according to federal regulations. And by the way, they donate half a million bucks a year to the politicians who wrote the regulations. How much do you donate to politicians?

Here's a quote you may or may not have heard of... it encapsulates capitalism oh so well.

A new car built by my company leaves somewhere traveling at 60 mph. The rear differential locks up. The car crashes and burns with everyone trapped inside. Now, should we initiate a recall? Take the number of vehicles in the field, A, multiply by the probable rate of failure, B, multiply by the average out-of-court settlement, C. A times B times C equals X. If X is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one.

This is a movie quote, but this is essentially what several car companies/tire companies did (i believe ford and firestone?). They calculated the out of court settlement costs were less than doing the right thing. Welcome to the free market.

 

[n yusef]

Originally posted by: bamacre
Well, there is never no regulation. You are regulation, we all are. You decide what brand of baby formula you buy, you decide what microprocessor is in your computer. And the more choices you have, the better the regulator you are, the better the product you can choose. Have we forgot how capitalism works? The powers of choice and competition? Is it perfect? No. No system is "perfect." And certainly there is a price to pay to live in a free society. And after thousands of years, people decided it was worth it. There are just risks in life that are unavoidable, and at times, the potential result can be fatal. You cannot drive to work every day and not risk losing your life because someone else on the road makes a mistake.

Now, just hypothetically speaking, let's assume there is zero government regulation of the food industry, and one day you eat a candy bar which causes you to become grossly ill. You are able to prove in a court that the company was negligent and allowed some chemical or whatever to get into the candy bar. You win the case, and it costs the company millions of dollars. The company figures out that it is more expensive for them to take the risks of similar lawsuits than to clean up their factory, and so they do clean up their act.

Now, let's say that there are heavy government-imposed regulations in place, yet the same scenario happens. Of course it may not happen as often, but let's say it does happen to you. You can prove in court that the company was negligent, they somehow allowed some chemical or whatever to get into the candy bar you purchased. But their defense is now stronger, they can show the court that they abide by 100% of all Federal Government regulations relevant to their products and factories. And because of this, they ask, how could we do better than this? They aren't negligent, this was a freak accident, they are sorry. You lose the case. They don't clean up their act, not any more than they have to according to federal regulations. And by the way, they donate half a million bucks a year to the politicians who wrote the regulations. How much do you donate to politicians?

I think the advertising industry would disagree with you; if we evaluated our decisions intelligently, and always chose the best product, marketing would not exist. But it does exist, and it works. Once you leave econ class and enter the real world with flawed, stupid people, you'll realize that capitalism is an economic system, not a social ideology. The Market is controlled by marketing, which removes ideas of consumer empowerment and regulation from rational consideration.

 

[Amused]

All this bickering over a pathogen that has been making us ill since before written history.

And what is all the ranting about??? Additives and preservatives??? Free market vs regulation??? Evil capitalism vs nannystate security???

WTF???

The punch line? The very people who rant over perfectly safe preservatives and additives ALSO oppose the universal use of the one process that would make salmonella (and most other foodborne pathogen) outbreaks a thing of the past: Irradiation.

The irony of this thread is overwhelming.

 

[LTC8K6]

I noticed a long time ago that many of my favorite foods now say "distributed by" where they used to say "manufactured by", meaning the company no longer actually made the item, but contracted it out and were now only the distributor.

 

[SammyJr]

Originally posted by: Sacrilege
You're going to die from something anyway. The free market will sort things out. We need less government intrusion in our lives. If you don't trust food, grow your own. You sound like some corporation hating Socialist. The companies that make our food take their responsibilities seriously and keep us safe. You mention processed foods as bad, but fresh vegetables and meats also carry pathogens. RANT REBUTTED.

Yup. All it takes is a few thousand people (or dogs) to die so we all know which companies/additives/products/whatever to avoid. There is absolutely no case for being proactive and monitoring our food supply when we have the expendable lower and middle classes.

/s

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: vhx
Just the other day it was found food wrapper coating chemicals were making it into the food it was being wrapped in and found in 10/10 of their test subjects bloodstreams. The chemical used may be linked to cancer. The first person I told this to didn't seem to care at all.

Whoop-de-friggin'-do.

Everything is linked to cancer these days. This isn't because we're using more dangerous products, it's because we're now able to measure "links" that are infinitesimally small. Ever burn your hamburger a little and still eat it? Guess what, that's linked to cancer. Ever had a bonfire? Guess what, that smoke is linked to cancer. It's not that there are suddenly more risks, it's simply that we were not previously able to measure those risks.

Now yes, if they're doping the food with Radium or something, that's bad. Most of the time, however, the "toxins" are present at such low levels that it's ridiculous to assume any true increase in risk.

The article you link does not list the concentrations found in human blood, nor does it list the LD50 concentrations. It does use scary terms like "10,000 times more toxic", but those are meaningless if the concentrations of the "10,000 times more toxic" substance are so small that they aren't even close to a dangerous dose. Mere "toxicity" isn't always relevant. Based strictly on LD50 levels (the accepted scientific measure of toxicity), Tylenol is far more toxic than many "poisons". Hell, salt is more toxic than many contaminants that people worry about.

ZV