FM1 A4-3420 2.8Ghz dual-core desktop APU, versus Sandy Bridge Pentium dual-core?

[VirtualLarry]

I pulled out this (new custom build), made with (older technology products), to see if it would be "better" for a client than their current SFF slim Gateway / Acer whatever Sandy Bridge Pentium, with a new-ish 1TB WD Blue HDD (that I replaced for them a few months ago).

This one has 4GB of RAM (2x2GB dual-channel), and a 120GB SSD. I suspect that the SB Pentium has the CPU advantage, but this has the iGPU advantage, and is still supported for Win10.

Plus, this one has legit Win10 on it, and client wanted to move from Win7 64-bit to Win10.

The issue is, they have basically NO money, so no budget for any sort of "real" upgrade. I built these FM1 boxes on the super-crazy cheap. (Would be close to $130 if I swapped the SSD out for a 160GB zero-POH WD Blue drive.)

Edit: I just ran the CPU-Z 1.81 benchmark, UGH, these APUs are pretty horrid in the CPU performance dept. MT of 256, ST of 133.

By comparison, an E8500 (3.16Ghz) Core2, is MT 530, and ST 272. Basically twice the performance.

So this APU is equivalent to a Core2, running at 1.508Ghz. Errm, yeeeah... I don't know if I want to recommend this as an upgrade. But... SSD!? Win10?!? Hmm. Tough call, whether this is much of an improvement.

By comparison, my Ryzen 3 1200 quad-core, OCed to 3.8Ghz, scores, I think, 1700 for MT, and 479 for ST. That's a HUGE difference in processing power. For what, twice the price total?

 

[Jan Olšan]

Edit: I just ran the CPU-Z 1.81 benchmark, UGH, these APUs are pretty horrid in the CPU performance dept. MT of 256, ST of 133.

By comparison, an E8500 (3.16Ghz) Core2, is MT 530, and ST 272. Basically twice the performance.

So this APU is equivalent to a Core2, running at 1.508Ghz. Errm, yeeeah...

That is probably an artifact of CPU-Z being a benchmark that doesn't really tell you anything. K10 performance should in most things be pretty close to Core 2 in IPC, and both have two cores, so if it runs at 2,8 GHz... being equal to 1,5 GHz C2D is nonsense. Maybe when the code in question relies on SSE4 or SSSE3, but those are rare cases, and K10 is fast in SSE2.

That being said, I would stick to the Pentium, Sandy Bridge is just much better all-purpose CPU, and while I much prefer Radeon IGP, it just is not worth it here.

What you could do for free is to do fresh Windows 10 install on the W7 PC and use its original serial to activate it. Technically speaking the period of free upgrades has ended (I told everybody to update what they could myself, but lots of people went defiant with "I won't be forced" mentality for some reason). This apparently still works. In my opinion if Microsoft allows you to activate W10 with W7 keys a year+ after the free offer ended, apparently it is fine with people using this loophole.

 

[VirtualLarry]

That being said, I would stick to the Pentium, Sandy Bridge is just much better all-purpose CPU, and while I much prefer Radeon IGP, it just is not worth it here.

Even when the AMD APU has an SSD? Granted, when you're talking about PCs of this era, as long as you're not heavily multi-tasking, a modern fast 7200RPM HDD like the 1TB WD Blue, is actually not horribly slow. I've seen slower SSDs, as a matter of fact. (Looking at you, 60GB or smaller SSDs.) In fact, for things like Windows Updates, the CPU can be as much or more of a bottleneck with Updates, than the storage is.

What you could do for free is to do fresh Windows 10 install on the W7 PC and use its original serial to activate it. Technically speaking the period of free upgrades has ended (I told everybody to update what they could myself, but lots of people went defiant with "I won't be forced" mentality for some reason). This apparently still works. In my opinion if Microsoft allows you to activate W10 with W7 keys a year+ after the free offer ended, apparently it is fine with people using this loophole.

That's still an option, I believe. I told the client, if they wanted to do the upgrade themselves, and thus not get charged by me, they could download the "Microsoft Windows 10 Upgrade Tool", and run it on the PC. I believe that still runs and works on Windows 7 PCs. (If it doesn't, well, I guess I'll sell them a PC with Win10 pre-installed, from my collection.)

I'd love to sell them one of my really speedy Ryzen 3 1200 rigs, that kick some butt. But they ... don't have any budget for PC upgrades, and they're on a fixed income.

I've of a mind just to let them use one of these FM1 rigs with SSD for a while, but ... they couldn't even offer me $5-10 today, to do the Windows Upgrade for them, so I basically said "sorry".

 

[TurtleCrusher]

The talk from going from Windows 7 to 10, you do know you can still upgrade from 7 to 10 for free right?

 

[SPBHM]

on geekbench I think this CPU is around the e5400 level, so not to bad for what it is (k10.5 with no l3)

 

[Torn Mind]

Heh, even a Celeron G530 has become too tedious for me once I have 50 Chrome tabs open or the accursed background process hog rears its ugly head once again. The Pentium will be better due to clock speed, but boy even it is on the edge.

That system has only 4GB of RAM, so the SSD is already going to pull double duty to compensate for the lack of RAM. It might be "snappier" interfacing with word and when the browser is not filled up too heavily, but it will still get bogged down eventually. Maybe it won't matter if she diligently closes browser windows. SSD would win if she's that sort of user.

That woman might need Start10 if she's one of those folks who are too used to the "old" start menus of either XP or 7, like many are.

 

[kwalkingcraze]

A4-3420 can be overclocked up to 2.95GHz when setting the number to 106 in ECS A55/A75 boards. Its performance is very identical to Athlon II X2 240 AM3.

 

[kwalkingcraze]

Edit: I just ran the CPU-Z 1.81 benchmark, UGH, these APUs are pretty horrid in the CPU performance dept. MT of 256, ST of 133?

A4-3420 is based on K10 architecture, and K10s run terrible if they're not over 4.0GHz frequency speed. At 2.8GHz, it's 32% slower than my Phenom X2 570 at 4.3GHz, plus FM1 lacks L3 cache. My Phenom has 6MB L3 cache. Good or bad?

 

[epsilon84]

Honestly, at this budget, if you really cared about the user experience, I would be looking at the used market rather than build new with ultra low end CPUs/APUs.

Here in Australia you can get a 2nd hand Sandy Bridge era i5 + motherboard + 8GB DDR3 for approx $100 USD. Not sure if you can score similar deals in the states though. If I was building an ultra cheap rig for a relative or friend I would prefer going down this route, the responsiveness of the system under any CPU load will much better than the A4 chip.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Honestly, at this budget, if you really cared about the user experience, I would be looking at the used market rather than build new with ultra low end CPUs/APUs.

Here in Australia you can get a 2nd hand Sandy Bridge era i5 + motherboard + 8GB DDR3 for approx $100 USD. Not sure if you can score similar deals in the states though. If I was building an ultra cheap rig for a relative or friend I would prefer going down this route, the responsiveness of the system under any CPU load will much better than the A4 chip.

I suppose that would be a good idea, except for two reasons:
1) I already own the FM1 APU rigs, and they are pre-installed and configured with Windows 10.
2) Not sure there would be much advantage to upgrading from Sandy Bridge to Sandy Bridge, just to increase core counts. Especially, considering that Windows 10 doesn't even support SB's iGPU.

 

[NTMBK]

Larry, I've got an A6-3650 in a drawer doing nothing. If you pay shipping from the UK I'll post it to you. Don't inflict that A4 on someone!

 

[Jan Olšan]

Even when the AMD APU has an SSD?

Yes, even if the Sandy has no SSD. I have a HDD for system in my office-work PC too. I don't believe in SSD being magic in everything to the point that you could sacrifice everything else. Even current website browsing will benefit more from the improved CPU. IMHO that sort of usability matters more than the time it takes to boot.

The Sandy Bridge platform as such is much more valuable than FM1, even if you put the CPU aside, they are lucky to have it. Maybe one day they will catch some quadcore priced for peanuts and the machine will advance several years into the future. FM1 doesn't really offer anything like that and the remianing financial value in it is also much lower IMHO. BTW I had Llano/FM1, but the value proposition of it was if you had quadcore and the alternative was Intel dualcore. The APU dual cores are too weak (same for Trinity, Richland, etc).

That's still an option, I believe. I told the client, if they wanted to do the upgrade themselves, and thus not get charged by me, they could download the "Microsoft Windows 10 Upgrade Tool", and run it on the PC. I believe that still runs and works on Windows 7 PCs. (If it doesn't, well, I guess I'll sell them a PC with Win10 pre-installed, from my collection.)

You have to either pretend you are using disability aid tools an use the Upgrade for users using assistive technologies (this: https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/ac...ge-for-people-who-use-assistive-technologies/ IIRC), or the other working option is to start a completely fresh install - not upgrade - from Windows 10 ISO. When it asks you for the serial code, you use the W7 one and that way it will activate. This option feels a bit more legit to me.

They should be able to do both by themselves, there are probably guides, they just need to backup their data in the second case.

Especially, considering that Windows 10 doesn't even support SB's iGPU.

Not officially, but you can use it. Windows will fetch a driver for it from WU and it works (I set up a PC like that, also installed with W10 Pro recently, using second-hand W7Pro key - resale is confirmed to be legal in EU). For office, internet and video watching, it is absolutely usable, although I have noticed things like window corruption when scrolling images in XnView. These bug annoy me but the system is usable.

Even with this in mind it is better idea than the APU. BTW, LLano/Trinity graphics only has a signle Windows 10 driver release out and people reported that for some of them, it broke H.264 GPU decoding, which is kinda important on LLano, at least the notebook versions. Not counting the Crimson beta, it is better to have stable driver. Support is in legacy mode for pre-GCN graphics since 2015.

 

[kwalkingcraze]

2) Not sure there would be much advantage to upgrading from Sandy Bridge to Sandy Bridge, just to increase core counts. Especially, considering that Windows 10 doesn't even support SB's iGPU.

Upgrading to Ivy Bridge is only few bucks now, and iGPU is Windows 10 compatible.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Upgrading to Ivy Bridge is only few bucks now, and iGPU is Windows 10 compatible.

The client's box is a pre-built OEM. They generally don't take generational upgrades very well.

 

[edcoolio]

Frankly, if they are hurting for money, the best solution is to put a cheap SSD into their current Sandy Bridge.

The Windows 7 code "is" the Windows 10 activation code.

Win10 media creation tool setup on USB + a Windows 7 activation code = profit

 

[TurtleCrusher]

Larry, I might try to get into the used laptop market for customers if I was in your shoes. The laptop in sig was only $60 shipped on ebay without a HDD. Like new, Ivy Bridge i5. There's tons of laptops that are better than these that you could probably charge more for.

Also don't push for pre-GCN graphics with Windows 10. It's not good. This laptop games much better than my A10-4600m does, and the Intel 4000 is much worse than the 384 VLIW4 shader 7660g. The only stable driver release wasn't good.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Also don't push for pre-GCN graphics with Windows 10. It's not good. This laptop games much better than my A10-4600m does, and the Intel 4000 is much worse than the 384 VLIW4 shader 7660g. The only stable driver release wasn't good.

I wasn't pushing the FM1 APU for any sort of gaming, only for slightly faster web browsing. (Firefox's new CSS / compositor uses the GPU fairly heavily, I've read.) For that purpose, I haven't run into any issues while using the default Windows 10 driver. Though, I don't think that any of the other user-downloadable drivers will work for Windows 10 with the pre-GCN graphics on that APU.

Neither of them are in any way gaming CPUs or iGPUs.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Frankly, if they are hurting for money, the best solution is to put a cheap SSD into their current Sandy Bridge.

That's the way that it's looking. I only just upgraded their HDD to a 1TB a few months ago, though. They wanted a new HDD, due to their current one failing, and I didn't have any SSDs bigger than their then-current HDD (320GB).

What to do with that? Take it back for credit? Stick it into a desktop HDD USB enclosure? (I picked up ten Sabrent USB2.0 HDD enclosures, that have metal cases, for $6.75 ea., on ebay recently. List price is $20-22 for them.

 

[XavierMace]

I don't see what the purpose of replacing the box with a slower box would be. The APU may technically have a GPU edge but the CPU is so slow, the GPU edge is moot. I'm assuming this is just a second thread regarding your client/friend who got themselves infected. Is the goal to upgrade their computer or to fix it? If all you're trying to do is fix it, nuke the drive from orbit and install Win 10 on it. As other have mentioned (and as far as I know), they're still taking 7 and 8 keys for upgrades.

(I picked up ten Sabrent USB2.0 HDD enclosures, that have metal cases, for $6.75 ea., on ebay recently. List price is $20-22 for them.

For the love of god, why? LOL. That just makes me think of this: https://youtu.be/eCNz6UJteOY?t=30

 

[edcoolio]

That's the way that it's looking. I only just upgraded their HDD to a 1TB a few months ago, though. They wanted a new HDD, due to their current one failing, and I didn't have any SSDs bigger than their then-current HDD (320GB).

What to do with that? Take it back for credit? Stick it into a desktop HDD USB enclosure? (I picked up ten Sabrent USB2.0 HDD enclosures, that have metal cases, for $6.75 ea., on ebay recently. List price is $20-22 for them.

Makes sense.

As for the HDD, I suppose it depends on how much drive space they actually use. If they don't use a lot, and you can return it, that is always the best option. If they need the space, set it up in Win 10 as a storage drive (settings-system-storage-manage storage space).

Is the drive a 2.5" or 3.5"?

 

[edcoolio]

I don't see what the purpose of replacing the box with a slower box would be. The APU may technically have a GPU edge but the CPU is so slow, the GPU edge is moot. I'm assuming this is just a second thread regarding your client/friend who got themselves infected. Is the goal to upgrade their computer or to fix it? If all you're trying to do is fix it, nuke the drive from orbit and install Win 10 on it. As other have mentioned (and as far as I know), they're still taking 7 and 8 keys for upgrades.



For the love of god, why? LOL. That just makes me think of this: https://youtu.be/eCNz6UJteOY?t=30

Maybe he just has a few drives laying around that he wants to make use of...

 

[XavierMace]

That would explain one or two. Not 10.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Maybe he just has a few drives laying around that he wants to make use of...

That would explain one or two. Not 10.

LOL. Don't you guys remember some of my threads complaining about bad shipping, when I ordered a qty. of cheap drives off of ebay? I've done that a few times now, and it seems, inevitably, that they pack them poorly.

But I have like 7-8 500GB WD Caviar Green AV-GP drives, and like 15 160GB WD Caviar Blue refurb zero-POH drives.

Plus whatever client drives might need an enclosure, such as in this case.

When I bought the enclosures, it was for an OEM case lot, which, seeing the savings ($20 down to $6.75 ea.), I went for it in a heartbeat.

Sadly, they're USB 2.0, but they'll do the job.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Anyways, bottom line, will Windows 10 work OK on a Sandy Bridge CPU's iGPU? The Win10 installer will pull down a driver over the internet for it, if it doesn't already have it included? IOW, can I make this work? If I can't, I'll offer her the FM1 APU rig, cheap. But if I can upgrade her existing rig to Windows 10, then I guess that would be the best / cheapest solution, for now at least, until she can save some money for a new rig, by next year.

Looking forward to Raven Ridge mini-ITX / mini-STX PCs. (ASRock, maker of the DeskMini, I'm looking at you! C'mon, a Raven Ridge DeskMini wouldn't be too much to ask, would it? )

 

[Jan Olšan]

Anyways, bottom line, will Windows 10 work OK on a Sandy Bridge CPU's iGPU? The Win10 installer will pull down a driver over the internet for it, if it doesn't already have it included

Yes, it works. Upgrade probably also works but clean install pulls driver from WU and everything works, including video playback. I even got MadVR working on HD3000, although it was not without glitches (screenshots in MPC didn't work well, playback itself worked - utilizing DXVA scalers. I think the screesnhots were just not debugged for the W10 drivers), so it is probably better to stick to default windows renderers instead.

As for future updates, if you put some second-hand i5 or i7 (higher turbo good idea) and particularly SSD in, I don't think it really needs repalcing, until the mobo dies.