Flightsimlabs installer has malware

bononos

Diamond Member
Aug 21, 2011
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Flightsimlabs founder has admitted that their game has a Chrome password dump tool use to catch pirates in a thread on the official FSL forum. He says that the dump tool is extracted during installation (deleted afterwards) and only run on installations with pirate serials.
https://forums.flightsimlabs.com/index.php?/topic/16210-malware-in-installer/&

First heard about the problem in a youtube video where FSL was said to be threatening libel lawsuits on redditors who spread word about the problem. Then when it was made clear that the threads would not be deleted by moderators, FSL wanted the contact details of those redditors.
https://youtu.be/Nvyn7Jlet_M
 

Rebel_L

Senior member
Nov 9, 2009
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That was an interesting thread to read, I wonder if the attitude of FSL that its ok to hack people trying to pirate your software is a common attitude in the developer community
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
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reminds of in sacred 2 the developers intentionally added bugs that would pop in on pirated copies. Of course all the game reviewers talked about how buggy the game was because they are idiots.
 
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BSim500

Golden Member
Jun 5, 2013
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Not really. As is usual with "You stole my software so I want to hack your PC" vigilantism, the whole thing falls apart completely both morally & legally when you realize:-

1. In the eyes of the law, two wrongs don't make a right and any information obtained is totally inadmissible in court as part of a lawsuit against piracy / copyright infringement.

2. Home PC's can have more than 1 user and that false misidentification / collective punishment is illegal for a reason. Eg, in a family of 5, dad buys PC and uses it for both home & his small business, son puts stolen game on it without dad knowing. Mother and 2x daughters use it occasionally for Internet, etc. Instead of doing things the legal route, company "harvests" bank login details for all 5x members of family, stealing personal data from juveniles who happen to use same PC, etc.

Dad then turns around and successfully sues for unauthorized access (cyber-crime), libel (if they falsely named him as the "thief"), a second set of libel (if they falsely name his business in same manner), and then after the company ends up paying out thousands of times more in damages (plus legal fees) vs the cost of the game, they get fined more on top for breaching data protection laws, then loses most of its customer base through catastrophic loss of trust ("our games come with viruses that steal your bank logins! In theory this only affects pirates, for the rest of you it's a good virus that probably won't get activated! Probably...")

Still sound such a "great" idea from a legal dept's point of view?...
 

Stg-Flame

Diamond Member
Mar 10, 2007
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reminds of in sacred 2 the developers intentionally added bugs that would pop in on pirated copies. Of course all the game reviewers talked about how buggy the game was because they are idiots.
Sinking to their level doesn't solve anything. They could have taken the Serious Sam route and added in an unkillable enemy that doesn't stop chasing you and kills you in one or two hits - effectively ruining your experience if you pirate the game.

I've heard a lot of people go up in arms about the practice of coding in bugs that activate with pirated copies, but if you look at the games that have these added-in bugs, they go on sale all the time from various distributors for less than $10 (sometimes lower than that).
 

paperfist

Diamond Member
Nov 30, 2000
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www.the-teh.com
Dumb question, if they can detect it's pirated then why can't they 1. Auto delete or make the game unplayable and 2. Contact the authorities with the PC owners identity?
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
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Not really. As is usual with "You stole my software so I want to hack your PC" vigilantism, the whole thing falls apart completely both morally & legally when you realize:-

1. In the eyes of the law, two wrongs don't make a right and any information obtained is totally inadmissible in court as part of a lawsuit against piracy / copyright infringement.

2. Home PC's can have more than 1 user and that false misidentification / collective punishment is illegal for a reason. Eg, in a family of 5, dad buys PC and uses it for both home & his small business, son puts stolen game on it without dad knowing. Mother and 2x daughters use it occasionally for Internet, etc. Instead of doing things the legal route, company "harvests" bank login details for all 5x members of family, stealing personal data from juveniles who happen to use same PC, etc.

Dad then turns around and successfully sues for unauthorized access (cyber-crime), libel (if they falsely named him as the "thief"), a second set of libel (if they falsely name his business in same manner), and then after the company ends up paying out thousands of times more in damages (plus legal fees) vs the cost of the game, they get fined more on top for breaching data protection laws, then loses most of its customer base through catastrophic loss of trust ("our games come with viruses that steal your bank logins! In theory this only affects pirates, for the rest of you it's a good virus that probably won't get activated! Probably...")

Still sound such a "great" idea from a legal dept's point of view?...
tell it to the judge.
 

BSim500

Golden Member
Jun 5, 2013
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Dumb question, if they can detect it's pirated then why can't they 1. Auto delete or make the game unplayable and 2. Contact the authorities with the PC owners identity?
They could do 1. Examples in games include The Talos Principle (get trapped in an elevator), or Serious Sam 3 (giant pink invincible scorpion). They can't do 2 as in the process of detecting the PC owners identity, they broke the law themselves and any half-sober judge would instantly dismiss it as inadmissible evidence (and as mentioned, potentially end up with the wrong identity anyway on multi-user computers, or even being counter sued for cyber-crimes / fined for data protection breaches, etc)...

It's amusing that some people are cheering this cr*p on when all the pirates have to do to avoid it is disconnect from the net whilst installing (or use a firewall whitelist). End result? test.exe (or more accurately, westealyourbanklogins.exe) is only technically capable of sending stolen passwords back to Flightsimlabs server's on paying customers PC's...
 
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JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
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They could do 1. Examples in games include The Talos Principle (get trapped in an elevator), or Serious Sam 3 (giant pink invincible scorpion). They can't do 2 as in the process of detecting the PC owners identity, they broke the law themselves and any half-sober judge would instantly dismiss it as inadmissible evidence (and as mentioned, potentially end up with the wrong identity anyway on multi-user computers, or even being counter sued for cyber-crimes / fined for data protection breaches, etc)...

It's amusing that some people are cheering this cr*p on when all the pirates have to do to avoid it is disconnect from the net whilst installing (or use a firewall whitelist). End result? test.exe (or more accurately, westealyourbanklogins.exe) is only technically capable of sending stolen passwords back to Flightsimlabs server's on paying customers PC's...

whats it say in the eula?
 

BSim500

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Jun 5, 2013
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whats it say in the eula?
EULA's don't trump national law. And the EULA's hardly likely to say "you agree to us illegally stealing your bank login" as aside from having zero enforceable value, that's pretty much as self-incriminating vs counter-lawsuits as you can get...
 
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BSim500

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Jun 5, 2013
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if they inform you is it still illegal?
Of course it is. That's why they swiftly removed it when they were caught out... EULA's aren't some magic "if you agree we can do anything" weapon against your customers. Contract law absolutely has its limits when the purpose of part of a contract is "to achieve an illegal end". Even far simpler non-crime stuff like, eg, trying to restrict the resale of CD's, DVD's or software ("You hereby agree to not lend or resell this CD / software") - the EULA can 'threaten' whatever it wants, back in the real world, courts regularly declare them invalid:-
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2011/01/appeals-court-upholds-first-sale-doctrine-for-promo-cds/
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy...-upholds-right-to-resell-downloaded-software/

Most courts also tend to take a dim view of "two wrongs make a right" vigilantism for reasons explained earlier. You might get away with that on a small individual scale, eg, you buy a bike for your kid, have it custom modified in a distinctive manner, record the serial no, take a photo, etc, it then gets stolen, you see it later chained up somewhere else, check the number, yup it's yours, so you take a pair of bolt cutters and "steal" it back. But that sure doesn't work with committing different crimes in "revenge", eg, breaking into the home of a pickpocket, or in this case, identity theft / unauthorized access to a network (an actual crime with potential jail sentence) in "retaliation" for software piracy (copyright infringement is classed as a "civil dispute" in most countries for "downloader" and only usually become a proper criminal charge for the actual uploader / if you make multiple physical copies of discs then resell them).

So in this case, they're trying to "cure" a civil dispute by committing an unrelated crime, and in doing so ironically forfeit their ability to pursue people in court without facing more serious counter-lawsuits. If they stuck "we're going to steal your data" in a EULA, they'd be automatically admitting to identity theft / unauthorized access to a network crimes. And as mentioned there's another aspect on top of that which is gross breach of multiple data protection acts, ie, even outside of court-rooms, they can still be fined by regulators regardless of intent of anti-piracy as they still have zero legal right to obtain or hold login data completely unrelated to their software (which could potentially threaten their ability to, eg, continue to sell their games in Europe due to non GDPR compliance).

So in this case, yup, they were absolutely in the wrong, seem to be driven by raw emotion rather than logic and clearly didn't think anything through on the legal side at all.
 
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JSt0rm

Lifer
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they didnt use it against their customers. Theft isnt a civil dispute.
 

BSim500

Golden Member
Jun 5, 2013
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they didnt use it against their customers.
You're wildly missing the point, so I'll just keep it short so there's no confusion - It's illegal for them to steal ANYONE's unrelated personal data like bank logins, etc, whether they were claiming to target only pirates or not. Period. Theirs (and your) "feelings" of "righteous justification because pirates deserve it" is legally irrelevant. It's doesn't undo one crime, it just creates a second different one.

"Appeals to emotion" of portraying them as some "corporate Paul Kersey" vigilante group sound cool and edgy (and yes I loved the Death Wish movies too as a kid), but you really need to learn how the legal system works in the real world...
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
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For the individuals simply acquiring pirated software, it usually is treated as a civil case if it's pursued at all.

maybe if more software companies used things like this to protect their software we would have less pirates?
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
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You're wildly missing the point, so I'll just keep it short so there's no confusion - It's illegal for them to steal ANYONE's unrelated personal data like bank logins, etc, whether they were claiming to target only pirates or not. Period. Theirs (and your) "feelings" of "righteous justification because pirates deserve it" is legally irrelevant. It's doesn't undo one crime, it just creates a second different one.

"Appeals to emotion" of portraying them as some "corporate Paul Kersey" vigilante group sound cool and edgy (and yes I loved the Death Wish movies too as a kid), but you really need to learn how the legal system works in the real world...

1 person steals their data and they steal that persons data in return. If its in the eula that they will pull your passwords from chrome if you are running pirated software then its not theft. They told them. (I dont know if thats the case or not)
 

BSim500

Golden Member
Jun 5, 2013
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1 person steals their data and they steal that persons data in return. If its in the eula that they will pull your passwords from chrome if you are running pirated software then its not theft.
Dude stop trolling. Your "EULA permits crime" nonsense was already answered here. There's really nothing more to say other than "but they deserve it", "but they deserve it", "but they deserve it" doesn't give any software developer the right to commit their own crimes, regardless of what they falsely believe their EULA "entitles" them to do, from illegally stealing data to double parking outside pirates houses to hiring contract killers to execute their first-born children "because the EULA says so"...

And it ISN'T in the EULA for reasons already explained (it's an admission of intent to commit a crime). And you can't annul a criminal statute simply by including a "agreeing to this elevates us above the law" clause in your EULA.

Obtaining other people's bank information by installing malware on their computer is one crime by itself. If they then use obtained data (eg, login name & password) to try and log into say GMail or their pirate's bank to find the pirate's full name / address from an e-mail address, then they are also committing a second crime that involves serious fraud against 3rd parties (illegal access of a bank's network using false credentials, etc). These are serious crimes with potential jail sentences attached. That you're even attempting to defend this stuff is absolutely absurd.
 
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dud

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Feb 18, 2001
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I love it when the armchair lawyers feel the need to chime in ...