Flex Fuel capable cars...what's the difference?

[RU482]

For example, a Chevy Impala can be purchased as a flex fuel capable, or not.

What's the difference?


If I understand it correctly, ethanol does better with high compression ratios (yes/no?). Or is it timing?

would a super charged or turbo charged engine be a better candidate for a flex fuel capable car?

 

[Strk]

Ethanol is corrosive, so at high volumes, it can damage some of the parts in your engine if isn't prepared for it.

 

[deanx0r]

E85 is rated at 105 octane, which makes an excellent candidate for forced induction applications.

What happens if you use E85:

-Your mileage will decrease.
-You drive pollution up.
-You drive corn price up
-Baby mexicans will die from starvation

 

[thedarkwolf]

Its the computer thats the biggest difference. It has to be able to tell what fuel you're running and at what % the mix is so it knows how much fuel to inject to keep your pistons from melting.

 

[RU482]

Originally posted by: thedarkwolf
Its the computer thats the biggest difference. It has to be able to tell what fuel you're running and at what % the mix is so it knows how much fuel to inject to keep your pistons from melting.

so, how does it detect the Ethanol percentage? Is there a sensor for it? Or does it sense it through the O2 sensors?

deanx0r..there is alot of stuff that really bugs me about ethanol, and the automotive industry as a whole.

What I am curious about is, is there a way to tune a car (like an Impala, for instance) to perform better on E85 (better fuel economy being my objective). In fact, is there a way to tune a car to get better mileage>?

 

[deanx0r]

E85 does sound like an attractive answer to our energy needs, that's because it is pushed by corn lobbyists, politicians who knows much better about E85 than the average consumer.
If your Impala can use, why not give it a try? It's cheaper than gasoline for now, although there are a lot of hidden cost that are subsidized from our taxes, enjoy it before the demand takes off
I am not quite sure if the lesser mileage you get with E85 offset its lower price with gasoline tho, but I have seen E85 used in many forced induction applications that are performance oriented, but not fuel economy oriented.

I don't there is much you can do to you Impala to help its fuel mileage beside changing your driving habits, properly maintain your car (tire, oil etc).

For drastic fuel mileage improvements, you can:

-get a 3-banger, 5-speed GeoMetro. 60MPG! It's slow, and you'll have to be an arsehole on the roads when changing lanes. Great thing is: people will view you as a smart guy when they'll see $5/gal.

-get a dieseliscious car such like a Vdub TDI. They return great mileage while offering good torque. Honda is bringing diesel power to its Accord sometime next year I believe.

-get a bike! Depending on the size of the engine, they return between 50 and 90 MPG. You can't beat a donorcycle. Don't forget your brain bucket.

 

[RU482]

FWIW, I don't own an Impala, it's just the most common Flex Fuel car around here. Whether we like it or not, the lobby is in place and ethanol (corn based, for that matter) is not going to go away. The problem is, even thought there are E85 compatible cars, they are only "compatible". Give me the option, even as an aftermarket kit, to make an E85 car perform more efficiently than a gasoline only car and I can get behind the ethanol buzz.

As for your points...

-No one will see the Metro driver as "smart". they may envy the MPG his car gets, but o golly, will never think "wow, what a genius for buying such a car"

-buying a New Diesel (or any high MPG car) is just silly if you don't normally buy new cars. want to save money???.buy cars that you can pay cash for!!

-motorcycles are a novelty for most people. Try attaching a carseat, not to mention 2 or 3. Rain...yeah!!. Winter...Woo Hoo. great if your single in SoCal, I guess.

 

[Gillbot]

There are some seal changes in the fuel system to allow the use of E85 and the car's computer can compensate for the different fuel.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: Gillbot
There are some seal changes in the fuel system to allow the use of E85 and the car's computer can compensate for the different fuel.

Yup, that's about it.

The most immediate difference is that the stoichiometric ratio for E85 is different than for gasoline and that using E85 at the same air/fuel ratio as gasoline will result in the car running lean and therefore potentially cause damage to the engine.

In the long run, E85 is more corrosive than gasoline and therefor some seals (and occasionally metal hard lines) need to be made of different materials.

In theory at least, it's not too difficult to retrofit a gasoline engine to run on E85, just a re-programming of the computer and swapping out a few parts in the fuel system.

ZV

 

[Gillbot]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: Gillbot
There are some seal changes in the fuel system to allow the use of E85 and the car's computer can compensate for the different fuel.

Yup, that's about it.

The most immediate difference is that the stoichiometric ratio for E85 is different than for gasoline and that using E85 at the same air/fuel ratio as gasoline will result in the car running lean and therefore potentially cause damage to the engine.

In the long run, E85 is more corrosive than gasoline and therefor some seals (and occasionally metal hard lines) need to be made of different materials.

In theory at least, it's not too difficult to retrofit a gasoline engine to run on E85, just a re-programming of the computer and swapping out a few parts in the fuel system.

ZV

The main seal issue is becoming less of a concern on newer vehicles as they are all switching to Viton (or other similar materials) instead of rubber or other natural elastomers for safety so the main factor is the stoich ratio.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: Gillbot

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: Gillbot
There are some seal changes in the fuel system to allow the use of E85 and the car's computer can compensate for the different fuel.

Yup, that's about it.

The most immediate difference is that the stoichiometric ratio for E85 is different than for gasoline and that using E85 at the same air/fuel ratio as gasoline will result in the car running lean and therefore potentially cause damage to the engine.

In the long run, E85 is more corrosive than gasoline and therefor some seals (and occasionally metal hard lines) need to be made of different materials.

In theory at least, it's not too difficult to retrofit a gasoline engine to run on E85, just a re-programming of the computer and swapping out a few parts in the fuel system.

ZV

The main seal issue is becoming less of a concern on newer vehicles as they are all switching to Viton (or other similar materials) instead of rubber or other natural elastomers for safety so the main factor is the stoich ratio.

There have been rumors of corrosion of hard lines and tanks in some vehicles too, but that seems limited to older vehicles that had metal tanks and older alloys for their hard lines.

ZV

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: Gillbot

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: Gillbot
There are some seal changes in the fuel system to allow the use of E85 and the car's computer can compensate for the different fuel.

Yup, that's about it.

The most immediate difference is that the stoichiometric ratio for E85 is different than for gasoline and that using E85 at the same air/fuel ratio as gasoline will result in the car running lean and therefore potentially cause damage to the engine.

In the long run, E85 is more corrosive than gasoline and therefor some seals (and occasionally metal hard lines) need to be made of different materials.

In theory at least, it's not too difficult to retrofit a gasoline engine to run on E85, just a re-programming of the computer and swapping out a few parts in the fuel system.

ZV

The main seal issue is becoming less of a concern on newer vehicles as they are all switching to Viton (or other similar materials) instead of rubber or other natural elastomers for safety so the main factor is the stoich ratio.

There have been rumors of corrosion of hard lines and tanks in some vehicles too, but that seems limited to older vehicles that had metal tanks and older alloys for their hard lines.

ZV

My company makes brake and fuel tubes for many automotive companies and we use nickel plated (internal) tubes for flex (E85) fuel because of the corrosion. Our tanks are plastic extruded (7 layers) but I'm not sure that there is a difference. Also, since the fuel pumps are in the tanks, I'm not sure of any differences there either.

 

[iamwiz82]

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: Gillbot

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: Gillbot
There are some seal changes in the fuel system to allow the use of E85 and the car's computer can compensate for the different fuel.

Yup, that's about it.

The most immediate difference is that the stoichiometric ratio for E85 is different than for gasoline and that using E85 at the same air/fuel ratio as gasoline will result in the car running lean and therefore potentially cause damage to the engine.

In the long run, E85 is more corrosive than gasoline and therefor some seals (and occasionally metal hard lines) need to be made of different materials.

In theory at least, it's not too difficult to retrofit a gasoline engine to run on E85, just a re-programming of the computer and swapping out a few parts in the fuel system.

ZV

The main seal issue is becoming less of a concern on newer vehicles as they are all switching to Viton (or other similar materials) instead of rubber or other natural elastomers for safety so the main factor is the stoich ratio.

There have been rumors of corrosion of hard lines and tanks in some vehicles too, but that seems limited to older vehicles that had metal tanks and older alloys for their hard lines.

ZV

My company makes brake and fuel tubes for many automotive companies and we use nickel plated (internal) tubes for flex (E85) fuel because of the corrosion. Our tanks are plastic extruded (7 layers) but I'm not sure that there is a difference. Also, since the fuel pumps are in the tanks, I'm not sure of any differences there either.

I work for a supplier of portions of the fuel system as well. Our plastic parts for e85 use different plastic blends, as well has seals being a different rubber.

 

[Gillbot]

Originally posted by: iamwiz82

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: Gillbot

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: Gillbot
There are some seal changes in the fuel system to allow the use of E85 and the car's computer can compensate for the different fuel.

Yup, that's about it.

The most immediate difference is that the stoichiometric ratio for E85 is different than for gasoline and that using E85 at the same air/fuel ratio as gasoline will result in the car running lean and therefore potentially cause damage to the engine.

In the long run, E85 is more corrosive than gasoline and therefor some seals (and occasionally metal hard lines) need to be made of different materials.

In theory at least, it's not too difficult to retrofit a gasoline engine to run on E85, just a re-programming of the computer and swapping out a few parts in the fuel system.

ZV

The main seal issue is becoming less of a concern on newer vehicles as they are all switching to Viton (or other similar materials) instead of rubber or other natural elastomers for safety so the main factor is the stoich ratio.

There have been rumors of corrosion of hard lines and tanks in some vehicles too, but that seems limited to older vehicles that had metal tanks and older alloys for their hard lines.

ZV

My company makes brake and fuel tubes for many automotive companies and we use nickel plated (internal) tubes for flex (E85) fuel because of the corrosion. Our tanks are plastic extruded (7 layers) but I'm not sure that there is a difference. Also, since the fuel pumps are in the tanks, I'm not sure of any differences there either.

I work for a supplier of portions of the fuel system as well. Our plastic parts for e85 use different plastic blends, as well has seals being a different rubber.

They are not "rubber" but more of a synthetic compound. Ethanol can deteriorate most (if not all) natural rubber compounds.

 

[jagec]

Originally posted by: deanx0r
politicians who knows much better about E85 than the average consumer.

*snrk*

Yes, this is The Best of All Possible Worlds, after all.

 

[Eli]

I wish I still had my Tercel.

I wanted to convert it to run E85..

Like, for real.. not just fuel system mods. Higher compression ratio FTW!