Fishing for insights before I spend $20 on a bi-directional IDE-to-SATA converter

[BonzaiDuck]

I'm rather pleased with the WHS-2011 server I re-built last year using a low-mileage ASUS 680i motherboard, Q6600, DDR2 RAM (8GB -- excessive) and two SATA-3 PCI-E controller cards (for 8 ports plus port-multiplier capability).

I've taken too long to ponder and sort out a preference among server-backup options. All along, the server boot/system disk is backed up with the OS backup feature nightly -- to a 320GB SATA disk in a hot-swap bay.

The nature of scheduled backups means that I'd need to leave the hot-swap disk running all the time. At least I can swap out the disk whenever I want -- between backups.

For data backups from my Stable-bit Drive Pool, the problem was more complex. I could use either the Windows backup (imaging feature), or Acronis True Image. But it will not work with the Drive Pool: I would have to image every disk in the pool. This would mean that every duplicated folder would also be duplicated in the backups. For instance, my Client Computer Backups folder has grown to approximately 400GB.

Of course, I can pick and choose which folders to backup on each drive to be imaged, but it is not an efficient solution.

So I finally settled on the latest "RichCopy 4.0" GUI version of the RoboCopy command. Instead of scheduling, I can make the backups anytime I want, and create different profiles to backup different folders. Thus I can backup "volatile" or frequently changing folders weekly, and backup some other folders once or twice monthly. The program will then only copy new files or files that have changed. Once I open RichCopy, choose the profile and click the "start" button, I can let it run without further attention. And -- I can swap out the hot-swap backup disk for the particular set of folders addressed by the profile after the backup is finished.

Here's the problem.

I had a very well-built IDE hot-swap bay with three caddies from StarTech (I think it was the DRW115ATABK model). I harvested the bay and drives from another LGA-775 machine that I've decommissioned and replaced with socket-1155 (no . . . freakin' . . . IDE . . . controller -- obviously). The caddies are all fitted with Hitachi 500 GB IDE disks -- some with less than 10 hours on their "odometer." Using these is a great way to get more use out of old-tech surplus.

All of the controllers and ports on the server system are set to AHCI-mode, which also allows me to hot-swap the other SATA (boot/system) backup. All the drives in the system which are SATA appear in the "Safely Remove . . " pop-up menu from the well-known system tray icon.

But the "Safely Remove . . " menu does not include or allow hot-swapping the IDE hot-swap caddies. Let me say at this point that everyone will argue that IDE can't be "hot-swapped," but the Startech bay and caddies came with a utility called "Swap Manager" which made it possible to the contrary. Unfortunately, the software doesn't work with a 64-bit OS like WHS-2011. There is also another shareware utility known as Hot-Swap! which replaces the "safely remove" icon with its own, and works with IDE drives as well as the SATA's.

But that introduces more complexity with additional software. I had also discovered that Hot-Swap! offers no uninstallation feature.

This has caused me to revisit another hardware option:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...-787-_-Product

Here, I'd be adding more "hardware complexity." I have tried and experimented with these devices before. Those of the cheap $2 variety -- usually uni-directional -- often have ring-cracks in the solder-joints and either don't last or are simply DOA. But StarTech has a much better track-record in the history of my purchases.

I've put in a customer-support query with StarTech, but they've yet to answer my question:

Will I be able to hot-swap the IDE caddy if the hot-swap bay is connected to the SATA controller with this device, and using the "Safely Remove" icon and pop-up? Anyone have any experience with this sort of thing?

Otherwise, whenever I want to swap backup disks, I must shut down the server, swap caddies, and reboot.

PS I KNOW it's only a $20 item, and I could simply buy it and try it. I'd just rather spend 20 minutes typing this thread post than fiddle with the hardware with potentially frustrating results!

 

[sm625]

I wouldnt trust those things. Can you use a pci card?

Not only are they more trustworthy, but they are also dirt cheap! You can find them on ebay for under $10. There are also pci express versions.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

I wouldnt trust those things. Can you use a pci card?

Not only are they more trustworthy, but they are also dirt cheap! You can find them on ebay for under $10. There are also pci express versions.

I don't think that solves the hot-swap problem. I either need a software program like Swap-Manager (no-go for the 64-bit OS), or Hot Swap! Or, I need to have the IDE connected to an SATA port and recognized by the "Safely Remove" feature in AHCI-mode.

Currently, the IDE hot-swap bay is connected to the (old) motherboard's IDE controller. Why would switching IDE controllers solve the problem?

I've got one SATA port available on my PCI-E SATA twin controllers. If I can achieve my objective with the StarTech adapter, I can then reconnect my old IDE DVD optical drive to the mobo IDE port -- currently residing in an external IDE-to-USB2 external box.

Listen! Thanks for your comment! I think I'm just going to risk the $20 and order the g**d*** thing and X my fingers as I test it out. I've just been more cautious in my purchases lately, because my most recent project had a lot of little wallet-hemorrhages.

UPDATE: I just took a closer look at the customer reviews for the adapter. One guy says "Windows 7 doesn't recognize" his IDE drive; another guy says the adapter works fine on Linux and Ubuntu; another guy says it works great in Windows 7.

The third customer-review also insinuates that he can "swap" his IDE drives. Well -- here goes -- about two Mexican dinners-worth. If this works, it sure beats shutting down my server from time to time, or throwing away 3x $70 Hitachis and about $100 in the bay and caddies . . .

 

[Cerb]

I don't think that solves the hot-swap problem. I either need a software program like Swap-Manager (no-go for the 64-bit OS), or Hot Swap! Or, I need to have the IDE connected to an SATA port and recognized by the "Safely Remove" feature in AHCI-mode.

What you need is to move to SATA.

Those adapters actually work quite well, IME, though I haven't used any so expensive as $20. But, PATA doesn't do hot-swap (unless you have the right Hitachi IDE drives on a RAID controller supporting their hot-swap feature). SATA may, and USB will. So, those are your options. I would not trust it to work correctly over those adapters even if it appears to show up as hot-swappable.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

What you need is to move to SATA.

Those adapters actually work quite well, IME, though I haven't used any so expensive as $20. But, PATA doesn't do hot-swap (unless you have the right Hitachi IDE drives on a RAID controller supporting their hot-swap feature). SATA may, and USB will. So, those are your options. I would not trust it to work correctly over those adapters even if it appears to show up as hot-swappable.

I can respect your opinion about this, but the solution for "non-swappable" IDE hot-swap capability was solved from the git-go with Star-Tech's "Swap Manager" software and that Hot Swap! program I mentioned.

If it works, it works. If it doesn't -- I'll find out.

You are absolutely right about the price, though. But as I said -- the cheap Chinese knock-offs priced at $2 each are the units with the least reliability. I've got about six of those tucked away in my parts locker. After the first of them failed, and later after my friend the electronics-tech explained his take on the trouble with them -- well -- I'll spend the two Mexican-dinners-worth.

Anyway, my personally-homemade tacos, burritos, nachos, chili-rellanos -- they're as good or better than anything one could find in So-Cal . . . . so . . . no great loss!

PS Man! That RichCopy 4.0 is great . . . just great . . .

 

[BonzaiDuck]

We always discount customer-reviews, but I try to apply statistical thinking to analyzing them.

Here's what one user says about the Startech adapter-converter. No guarantee, but he seems to be speaking from first-hand experience:

"Other Thoughts: I used this with a Kingwin KF-21 IDE Mobile Rack installed in a new Windows 7 machine. Now I can transfer the data off my older IDE Windows XP computer's hard drive and also use the hard drive to back up to. That also means I can swap out other IDE hard drives too. It comes with everything you need, SATA cable, Power Cords, etc. Just make sure your case can handle the additional length of the Hard Drive rack and the Adapter attached to the back of it. My Cooler Master Elite 430 works well with this. The old drive and adapter were recognized without adding any drivers using Windows 7."

That's not "statistical thinking" -- since it's just one observation from one user. But the single observation seems encouraging . . .

 

[BonzaiDuck]

For anyone interested, "the plot thickens."

StarTech tech-support came back to me, first vowing to test the PATA2SATA3 adapter in their lab for "hot-swap" capability.

Meanwhile, I had discovered the customer-review quoted in a previous post here.

finally, after waiting for the tech-support response, I just went forward and ordered the device.

NOw, tech-support comes back with this:

"
I have tested the PATA2SATA in our lab environment, and I was unable to successfully do a hot-swap with the device. It locks up the system whenever the connection is lost.

Unfortunately, we no longer support a software solution to hot-swap IDE.

For your remaining IDE drives, I would like to recommend using a docking station like the UNIDOCK2U or the UNIDOCK3U. You will need to power down the enclosure whenever making a new connection to the drive, but it will at least allow you change drives much quicker while your PC is on.
"
From the very beginning with this correspondence, I couldn't be sure if the tech-rep understood that I wasn't hot-swapping the adapter, intending to hotswap only the drive. Anyway, his take on it is completely contrary to the customer-review I quoted.

The only thing I can do is try it myself.

And if it works, I'll report it to StarTech. And in any event, I"ll report it here -- fail or succeed.

Meanwhile, the docking station doesn't improve anything. It's no more problematic to power down the server and replace the IDE caddy. And if I can't get the PATA2SATA3 adapter to allow hot-swapping, there's still the freeware solution with the "Hot Swap!" software.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

Maybe I'll get some more responses to this thread -- I can't say.

I can only say that the Hitachi 500GB IDE drives I want to make hot-swappable with my Startech "hot-swap" IDE bay and caddies have "low-mileage," and it would be a shame to just dump the bay, the caddies and the drives when I can at minimum use them by shutting down, swapping and rebooting.

But I want them to be hot-swappable just as SATA drives and caddies are hot-swappable with my SATA bays and caddies. To recap -- the "Swap Manager" software bundled with the IDE bay/caddies only works with a 32-bit OS, as opposed to my 64-bit WHS-2011.

Now. I said the Startech tech-rep said "no-go:" the PATA2SATA3 adapter won't allow hot-swapping the IDE caddy connected through it to the SATA controller. I thought maybe he didn't do the testing properly, or misunderstood what I was trying to do -- can't say at the moment.

I did some more web-searches, reading some old threads and posts about this issue going way back when. The issue about "system locking up" seemed related to cutting the power to the HDD -- with possible implications for cutting power to an IDE-to-SATA adapter.

The adapter has its own power cable -- a 5V cable with a floppy-drive power connector port. By itself, hot-swapping the IDE drive/caddy from its bay with the no-longer-functional software involved disconnection of only the power provided to the bay.

Here is a web-page from a UK source:

http://blog.tynemouthsoftware.co.uk/2011/11/hotswap-ide-bays.html

In this solution, turning the key-lock for the IDE caddy in the bay cuts off the power to BOTH the caddy AND the PATA-to-SATA adapter -- simultaneously.

The only thing I need to do? I think I need to splice in the wiring and floppy-plug for the adapter with the 5V wiring that powers the bay.

Depending on how I do this, I can avoid damaging the adapter. I would hope I'd avoid damaging the IDE hot-swap bay PERMANENTLY. I could still damage the IDE (test) drive in the caddy.

But it seems straightforward: It would be a parallel-wiring mod.

Any thoughts about this? It could be . . . really easy . . . I could probably leave the wiring modification in place, STILL use the IDE hot-swap bay directly with a motherboard IDE port, but I could also connect it to the adapter when used to connect to an SATA motherboard port.

 

[PingSpike]

Are you averse to USB for your back up disks? If you really desire to keep the swap bays, couldn't you just buy some of those cheapo USB->IDE adapters (I own a couple myself) attach them to the IDE swap bays internally and then just route the USB cable to a port. I suppose you could even wire the off switch into the swap bays.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

Are you averse to USB for your back up disks? If you really desire to keep the swap bays, couldn't you just buy some of those cheapo USB->IDE adapters (I own a couple myself) attach them to the IDE swap bays internally and then just route the USB cable to a port. I suppose you could even wire the off switch into the swap bays.

I thought about that -- actually -- to my credit for having some functioning brain-cells. The dead cells apparently prevailed. And I'll spend more time trying to find the right solder-points on the hot-swap Bay's PCB board if I want to go through with the mod allowing me to shut off the adapter with the keyswitch.

I'm having e-mail correspondence with the UK fellow who posted the blog about the wiring mod. So -- that' s a work in progress.

Some of the PATA-to-SATA adapter models show "hot-swap" in their feature list, and they simply can't be of better quality than the StarTech unit. But even StarTech tells me (they could even be wrong) that hot-swapping the IDE caddy could cause problems -- or it did when they tried it in their lab -- I just don't know "how" or what they did.

The IDE drive shows up in the "Safely Remove" pop-up list of the system tray icon. Without the wiring mod, I don't know whether to try hot-swapping, or continue the routine of powering down, swapping caddies, and rebooting.

All this . . . to get "value" from a $55 bay-with-caddy, 2x $35 spare caddies, and approximately 3x $75 IDE drives. All those purchases were made between 2007 and 2008. But like I said, one of those Hitachi IDE drives had accumulated 9 hours of "on" time.

Might as well use 'em.

 

[Essence_of_War]

Might as well use 'em.

As long as you're enjoying the time you're spending on this, and not viewing it as a protection of your sunk-costs, rock on Duck

 

[BonzaiDuck]

As long as you're enjoying the time you're spending on this, and not viewing it as a protection of your sunk-costs, rock on Duck

Oh! Sunk costs! We could adjourn to the political forum about that and some trillion-dollar issues!

Let me think about this. A sunk cost is irretrievable. A total loss, which a wise businessman writes off as he moves on after salvage value. Otherwise, it represents a money-pit -- a financial black-hole. IDE may be dead and obsolete, but I'm still getting plenty of value out of those items, or will continue to do so.

I've also got more than enough hot-swap SATA (-III or "6"!!) bays and caddies, some of them begging for "redeployment."

I must have said it: I categorized my important data in "levels of volatility," and it splits up into groups of folders and files each less than the 500GB Hitachi IDE capacity. I'm using RichCopy 4.0 available at the MS/TechNet/MSDN sites. Speed doesn't matter after the first or initial copy from my drive-pool virtual disk, because the profiles I've created and the RichCopy features only copy "new" or "changed" stuff.

Except for the hot-swapping loose-ends, this will be absolutely great for my needs. I'll probably move an SATA bay from another machine to the server soon for some TB drives I have in caddies.

Mean-freakin'-while -- It's an orphaned OS, but I'm really impressed with WHS now. Changing the IDE drive connection from the mobo IDE to the SATA-with-adapter, the OS seemed "lost" or delayed with the subsequent reboot, and I hit the reset switch. WHS comes up offering a "recommended" option to "repair." With one of the hot-swap bays, I'm making nightly scheduled backups of the OS boot/system drive image.

A few mouse clicks, and the repair feature just went out and grabbed the backup from the disk and rebuilt the drive. SEcond time WHS has saved my silly a**.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

Why do we persist too long in attempting to achieve a sub-optimal solution?

This is the best way to go for an old IDE mobile bay with caddies:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...-712-_-Product

The PATA2SATA3 adapter responds under "Safely Remove," but needs to power down itself along with the hard-drive with caddy, or it won't recognize a newly swapped-in or powered-up drive until a re-boot.

So the only way to fix this for SATA is to wire the red/black 5V to the bay PCB -- if you can be sure of which solder-points to use.

But instead of following that long and arduous path, why not make an internal connection from bay IDE port to USB2 blue 10-pin, power the bay and caddy with internal Molex as originally, and live with the 60MB/s transfer-rate?

After the first backup has been made at file and folder level, speed wouldn't matter at all with the future incremental changes.

And I don't want to make these backups every day. That's why I needed it to be "hot-swap."

As for the PATA2SATA3 StarTech adapter -- perfect -- for reinstalling my IDE DVD/RW drive to run exclusively on my SATA-III controllers with the other disks, and I can turn off the IDE and SATA motherboard controllers. Yes -- life is good, with a flexible backup solution and extended life for old obsolete parts . . . Would've been better if I'd listened to PingSpike in post #9, but -- we're good! Good to go!

Pingspike is right about cheaper USB-to-IDE solutions, but I look at customer-reviews for any hint of possible trouble. About the only thing I'm not likely to use for the C2G kit is the power-brick and the laptop "IDE power" adapter. And then again -- who knows?