First test drives of the 2008 Mustang Bullitt

Feb 10, 2000
30,029
67
91
From Edmunds:

It's better than the GT in every way ? but it's still a Mustang, with all the ability and limits that come with that. With the massive advantage of being a bargain.

From Motor Trend:

The 2008 Mustang Bullitt is well conceived, designed, engineered, and ready to rock. It's crisper, sharper, and a bit quicker than a standard GT. Though not as fast as a GT500, it's better balanced and less expensive. The Green Machine has a classy, stealth look, and a heritage all its own. Ford plans 7000 Bullitts for the U.S. market, and it's likely to be the last special edition dedicated to the movie and the man. Translation: Future collectible.

It's funny - I am a conservative, traditionally import-oriented guy, but somehow I really really like this car. The current Mustang is a great mix of old and new IMO, and the Bullitt adds to it in ways I totally respect and appreciate. For me, this is probably the most desirable Big 3 car at the moment (keeping in mind that I don't consider a Viper, ZO6 or ZR1 a daily driver).
 

ViviTheMage

Lifer
Dec 12, 2002
36,189
87
91
madgenius.com
300 some horse in a V8 ? That seems a little low to me...and only a 5 speed?

I also hate the designs of the new mustangs...smashed grill = no.
 

fbrdphreak

Lifer
Apr 17, 2004
17,555
1
0
Originally posted by: ViviTheMage
300 some horse in a V8 ? That seems a little low to me...and only a 5 speed?

I also hate the designs of the new mustangs...smashed grill = no.
It's a tiny 281 cubic inch block (4.6L), so producing greater than 1HP per ci is actually quite good. Still, it's a SOHC small displacement V8 so it loses some stump pulling low end torque compared to the larger displacement, OHV designs from GM.

Ford 4.6L SOHC - 315HP/320TQ
GM 5.7L LS1 OHV - 350HP/350TQ
GM 6.0L LS2 OHV - 400HP/400TQ
GM 6.2L LS3 OHV - 430HP/424TQ

You can see the difference in the torque curves easily.

Mustang GT 4.6L dyno (automatic):
http://www.alternativeauto.com...05_gt_dyno_update.html

6.0L LS2 dyno (manual):
http://supplespub.com/images/ls2_m6_dynochartstock.jpg

Look at the shape of the torque curve - the higher displacement engine has a much flatter torque curve, despite peaking at similar RPM's and having a lower HP/ci ratio.

Back on topic, the Bullitt does look pretty good. The gears & suspension will be a nice add, along with the revised computer. As long as it's priced reasonably, a good package indeed.
 

RagingBITCH

Lifer
Sep 27, 2003
17,618
2
76
That is sexy...sexier than the 01 Bullitt. I really liked those too.

PS - the Edmunds link has a link to the original Steve McQueen movie chase scene. That alone is worth clicking on the link :)
 

Zenmervolt

Elite member
Oct 22, 2000
24,514
34
91
Originally posted by: fbrdphreak
Still, it's a SOHC small displacement V8 so it loses some stump pulling low end torque compared to the larger displacement, OHV designs from GM.

Actually, OHC versus OHV has no fundamental effect on the torque curve. It is simply easier to design an OHC setup to provide better breathing at high RPM than it is to provide good high RPM breathing from an OHV setup, so most companies go that route with OHC, while it's easier to optimize OHV setups for low-RPM power.

You're right about displacement of course.

ZV

EDIT: I am really missing my '06 GT now... Damn Ford.
 

OS

Lifer
Oct 11, 1999
15,581
1
76

it's a shame about oil being almost $100/barrel, else i'd be tempted to get one.

 

zerocool84

Lifer
Nov 11, 2004
36,041
472
126
This car doesnt really, to me, offer much other than a collecter car for that huge price premium. My friend has the 01 bullitt and it really didnt offer much performance over the stock gt and this one doesnt either. They should have offered some more power and offered some summer tires witha much better suspension with as much over the gt you are paying. I love the subtle look of it and while it is not widely available, I really think they should have given it even more oomph. It really doesnt matter anyways as people aren't going to buy this because of the performance, they are going to buy it for the collectability.
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,389
8,547
126
that dash is pretty damn sweet. i wonder if you could order that from ford parts and apply it to any recent mustang?
 

exdeath

Lifer
Jan 29, 2004
13,679
10
81
Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
Originally posted by: fbrdphreak
Still, it's a SOHC small displacement V8 so it loses some stump pulling low end torque compared to the larger displacement, OHV designs from GM.

Actually, OHC versus OHV has no fundamental effect on the torque curve. It is simply easier to design an OHC setup to provide better breathing at high RPM than it is to provide good high RPM breathing from an OHV setup, so most companies go that route with OHC, while it's easier to optimize OHV setups for low-RPM power.

You're right about displacement of course.

ZV

EDIT: I am really missing my '06 GT now... Damn Ford.

Really it comes down to port velocites and valve area when it comes to bottom end toque. Intake velocity = stream momentum = continued cylinder filling even at the start of the compression stroke (I know you probably know all this ZV but putting this here for everyone). With a large displacement engine with only 1 intake valve, you are sucking a large volume through a small opening; bingo, instant port velocity and low end torque. With the SOHC 4.6 engine, it all comes down to lack of displacement because both have two valves. It's actually harder to tune the N/A 4v DOHC engines for low end torque due to the lower port velocities that come with a larger valve area. But superior breathing up top, esp. when forced induction is involved, is the tradeoff.

Given the same displacement and valve size there would be zero difference between a OHC or OHV engine except the OHC might rev a little higher and smoother with the lighter valve train having less reciprocating mass.

Also have to look at the resulting effects of displacement, particularly bore size, on the size of the valves. A 6+L 2V engine probably has close to the same valve area as a 4.6L engine with 4 valves. So not only are you down on displacement, already a disadvantage, with 2v OHC your valves are smaller too.

Basically DOHC 4v is essential if you want power out of a small displacement engine like the 4.6. Better yet forced induction is better on 4v engines because you a) solve the problem of bottom end torque by using positive pressure to fill the cylinders instead of relying on port velocities, and b) you fully reap the benefits of the extra breathing of 4 valves when that boost starts piling on heavy at 6,000 RPM. A 2v engine, OHV or OHC, is going to suffer the usually dropping off and running out of breath when winded up high, and it's going to be compounded even more by the blower. Typically once intake velocity exceeds 650 feet per second, you start to LOSE power due to fluid drag, turbulence, etc. It starts costing exponentially more power to suck that air faster and faster (inverse cube law). That is one reason you see the power start falling off after the peak and that fall off occurs lower in the RPMs and is more severe on a 2v engine. The same thing that promotes torque down low is a bottleneck up high. With more valve area, you can flow more air volume without increase the velocity.

I'd pass up this barely more than a GT with a $500 trim package and wait for one of two models that will be significantly set apart from the GT, but not as expensive as the GT500:

The Mach 1 and the GT350.

The Mach 1 is especially unique with lots of changes that are exclusive to the Mach 1 (seats, gauge cluster, hood and shaker scoop, wheels, facia, shift knob, C pillar slope and louvered rear window, DOHC engine similar to the Cobra but not supercharged, all things that are signature Mach 1 traits)
 

exdeath

Lifer
Jan 29, 2004
13,679
10
81
Originally posted by: zerocool84
This car doesnt really, to me, offer much other than a collecter car for that huge price premium. My friend has the 01 bullitt and it really didnt offer much performance over the stock gt and this one doesnt either. They should have offered some more power and offered some summer tires witha much better suspension with as much over the gt you are paying. I love the subtle look of it and while it is not widely available, I really think they should have given it even more oomph. It really doesnt matter anyways as people aren't going to buy this because of the performance, they are going to buy it for the collectability.

They can't give the Bullitt too much power. They have between the GT at 300 HP and the GT500 at 500 HP to position the Mach 1 and the GT350, which both amongst themselves have to be set apart from each other as well.

They'd have a hard time differentiating a Mach 1 and GT350 with only a 25 HP difference them if they made the Bullet 400 HP and had to fit both those higher level cars above 400 and below 500 HP.
 

EvilYoda

Lifer
Apr 1, 2001
21,198
9
81
Thanks for the links, I'm sure I'll receive plenty of questions about the 2008 Bullitt soon enough.
 

kevman

Diamond Member
Apr 20, 2001
3,548
1
81
i wish they could have put lights and a badge on the grill, it looks like v6 mustang from the front.
 

paulxcook

Diamond Member
May 1, 2005
4,277
1
0
For the extra $$$, I would want more than a 15 HP boost. I don't remember reading about the torque boost in the 1st article, and I just looked at the pics in the 2nd one. Is there an increase in torque?
 

Demon-Xanth

Lifer
Feb 15, 2000
20,551
2
81
My cousin drove one of those yesterday. He said it sounded nice, but wouldn't be able to keep up with his GTO. And the cost for the "Bullitt" package isn't worth it, but expects for the dealer markup for the limited edition to make it just flat stupid.

His co-driver that day was a Virginia State Trooper.
 

Zenmervolt

Elite member
Oct 22, 2000
24,514
34
91
Originally posted by: exdeath
Really it comes down to port velocites and valve area when it comes to bottom end toque. Intake velocity = stream momentum = continued cylinder filling even at the start of the compression stroke (I know you probably know all this ZV but putting this here for everyone). With a large displacement engine with only 1 intake valve, you are sucking a large volume through a small opening; bingo, instant port velocity and low end torque. With the SOHC 4.6 engine, it all comes down to lack of displacement because both have two valves. It's actually harder to tune the N/A 4v DOHC engines for low end torque due to the lower port velocities that come with a larger valve area. But superior breathing up top, esp. when forced induction is involved, is the tradeoff.

Given the same displacement and valve size there would be zero difference between a OHC or OHV engine except the OHC might rev a little higher and smoother with the lighter valve train having less reciprocating mass.

Also have to look at the resulting effects of displacement, particularly bore size, on the size of the valves. A 6+L 2V engine probably has close to the same valve area as a 4.6L engine with 4 valves. So not only are you down on displacement, already a disadvantage, with 2v OHC your valves are smaller too.

Basically DOHC 4v is essential if you want power out of a small displacement engine like the 4.6. Better yet forced induction is better on 4v engines because you a) solve the problem of bottom end torque by using positive pressure to fill the cylinders instead of relying on port velocities, and b) you fully reap the benefits of the extra breathing of 4 valves when that boost starts piling on heavy at 6,000 RPM. A 2v engine, OHV or OHC, is going to suffer the usually dropping off and running out of breath when winded up high, and it's going to be compounded even more by the blower. Typically once intake velocity exceeds 650 feet per second, you start to LOSE power due to fluid drag, turbulence, etc. It starts costing exponentially more power to suck that air faster and faster (inverse cube law). That is one reason you see the power start falling off after the peak and that fall off occurs lower in the RPMs and is more severe on a 2v engine. The same thing that promotes torque down low is a bottleneck up high. With more valve area, you can flow more air volume without increase the velocity.

I'd pass up this barely more than a GT with a $500 trim package and wait for one of two models that will be significantly set apart from the GT, but not as expensive as the GT500:

The Mach 1 and the GT350.

The Mach 1 is especially unique with lots of changes that are exclusive to the Mach 1 (seats, gauge cluster, hood and shaker scoop, wheels, facia, shift knob, C pillar slope and louvered rear window, DOHC engine similar to the Cobra but not supercharged, all things that are signature Mach 1 traits)

:thumbsup:

Incredibly well said.

ZV
 

exdeath

Lifer
Jan 29, 2004
13,679
10
81
It also explains the difference in philosophies from F1 to Top Fuel.

With the fuel cars being allowed up to 500 cubes, there is so much bore and combustion chamber surface area that the two valves are HUGE, making 4v DOHC not really a necessity in those engines.

But in Formula 1 they are arbitrarily limited to 3.0L maximum displacement. Some people like to argue that it's because it's higher technology and more efficient to use a smaller engine (the HP/L argument), and this is false. Displacement limits were imposed actually to LIMIT power and to prevent displacement and power wars from escalating out of control and making the race come down to money and engine size. Don't think Ferrari wouldn't go to 6.0L if they could, or that they wouldn't because they could do it better with 3.0L.

But working with what you are allowed, with such tiny cylinders, you really have no choice but to go to overhead cam 4-5v setups and rev them as high as they can go, because two valves in a 3.0L engine would be extremely small and restrictive. With an 8.2L engine the bore diameter is massive enough that even 1 valve for intake and exhaust provides ample area and minimizes any advantage that more than two valves might bring.

It would be interesting to see a graph of engine displacement vs. number of valves and see where they cross. That is, you'd expect to see the smaller engine have more to gain as valves are increase, while as the engine size continues increasing, you'd get diminishing returns. At what displacement, and at what bore and stroke, would 4 valves have the same exact flow as 2 valves and make 4 valves not necessary?
 

GoatMonkey

Golden Member
Feb 25, 2005
1,253
0
0
Originally posted by: exdeath
It also explains the difference in philosophies from F1 to Top Fuel.

With the fuel cars being allowed up to 500 cubes, there is so much bore and combustion chamber surface area that the two valves are HUGE, making 4v DOHC not really a necessity in those engines.

But in Formula 1 they are arbitrarily limited to 3.0L maximum displacement. Some people like to argue that it's because it's higher technology and more efficient to use a smaller engine (the HP/L argument), and this is false. Displacement limits were imposed actually to LIMIT power and to prevent displacement and power wars from escalating out of control and making the race come down to money and engine size. Don't think Ferrari wouldn't go to 6.0L if they could, or that they wouldn't because they could do it better with 3.0L.

But working with what you are allowed, with such tiny cylinders, you really have no choice but to go to overhead cam 4-5v setups and rev them as high as they can go, because two valves in a 3.0L engine would be extremely small and restrictive. With an 8.2L engine the bore diameter is massive enough that even 1 valve for intake and exhaust provides ample area and minimizes any advantage that more than two valves might bring.

It would be interesting to see a graph of engine displacement vs. number of valves and see where they cross. That is, you'd expect to see the smaller engine have more to gain as valves are increase, while as the engine size continues increasing, you'd get diminishing returns. At what displacement, and at what bore and stroke, would 4 valves have the same exact flow as 2 valves and make 4 valves not necessary?

I think the limit in F1 is down to 2.4L V-8 currently. They used to allow turbos back in the 80's. Those things were getting 1500hp in qualifying trim. The limits are put on there for safety reasons. I still think they should limit the fuel they are allowed for the race and let them do it with whatever engine they want. If they go to fast for the safety guys, give them less fuel to complete the race.

it's a shame about oil being almost $100/barrel, else i'd be tempted to get one.

The Mustang's MPG is really not that bad. Definitely comparable to other cars with equal power and weight. Obviously, it's not a Prius or something, but it's not an SUV either.

 

Demon-Xanth

Lifer
Feb 15, 2000
20,551
2
81
Originally posted by: exdeath
It would be interesting to see a graph of engine displacement vs. number of valves and see where they cross. That is, you'd expect to see the smaller engine have more to gain as valves are increase, while as the engine size continues increasing, you'd get diminishing returns. At what displacement, and at what bore and stroke, would 4 valves have the same exact flow as 2 valves and make 4 valves not necessary?

6.7L Cummins, 1.1L/cylinder, 4 valves. 3250RPM redline... and one cam. Induction: very forced. :)
 

exdeath

Lifer
Jan 29, 2004
13,679
10
81
Originally posted by: Demon-Xanth
6.7L Cummins, 1.1L/cylinder, 4 valves. 3250RPM redline... and one cam. Induction: very forced. :)

Meh I hate diesels...

100lbs of boost and no detonation worries... *grumble*
 

Demon-Xanth

Lifer
Feb 15, 2000
20,551
2
81
Originally posted by: exdeath
Originally posted by: Demon-Xanth
6.7L Cummins, 1.1L/cylinder, 4 valves. 3250RPM redline... and one cam. Induction: very forced. :)

Meh I hate diesels...

100lbs of boost and no detonation worries... *grumble*

True, but that 6.7L Cummins does weigh more than two LS7s. (1050LBs) When you've gotten used to Rams with Cummins in the engine bays, then see the Hemi or 4.7 in them, they look like they're missing something. Even the SRT-10 engine looks very unimpressive when the engine bay is large enough to smuggle illegal aliens in.
 

GoatMonkey

Golden Member
Feb 25, 2005
1,253
0
0
Originally posted by: exdeath
Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
Originally posted by: fbrdphreak
Still, it's a SOHC small displacement V8 so it loses some stump pulling low end torque compared to the larger displacement, OHV designs from GM.

Actually, OHC versus OHV has no fundamental effect on the torque curve. It is simply easier to design an OHC setup to provide better breathing at high RPM than it is to provide good high RPM breathing from an OHV setup, so most companies go that route with OHC, while it's easier to optimize OHV setups for low-RPM power.

You're right about displacement of course.

ZV

EDIT: I am really missing my '06 GT now... Damn Ford.

Really it comes down to port velocites and valve area when it comes to bottom end toque. Intake velocity = stream momentum = continued cylinder filling even at the start of the compression stroke (I know you probably know all this ZV but putting this here for everyone). With a large displacement engine with only 1 intake valve, you are sucking a large volume through a small opening; bingo, instant port velocity and low end torque. With the SOHC 4.6 engine, it all comes down to lack of displacement because both have two valves. It's actually harder to tune the N/A 4v DOHC engines for low end torque due to the lower port velocities that come with a larger valve area. But superior breathing up top, esp. when forced induction is involved, is the tradeoff.

Given the same displacement and valve size there would be zero difference between a OHC or OHV engine except the OHC might rev a little higher and smoother with the lighter valve train having less reciprocating mass.

Also have to look at the resulting effects of displacement, particularly bore size, on the size of the valves. A 6+L 2V engine probably has close to the same valve area as a 4.6L engine with 4 valves. So not only are you down on displacement, already a disadvantage, with 2v OHC your valves are smaller too.

Basically DOHC 4v is essential if you want power out of a small displacement engine like the 4.6. Better yet forced induction is better on 4v engines because you a) solve the problem of bottom end torque by using positive pressure to fill the cylinders instead of relying on port velocities, and b) you fully reap the benefits of the extra breathing of 4 valves when that boost starts piling on heavy at 6,000 RPM. A 2v engine, OHV or OHC, is going to suffer the usually dropping off and running out of breath when winded up high, and it's going to be compounded even more by the blower. Typically once intake velocity exceeds 650 feet per second, you start to LOSE power due to fluid drag, turbulence, etc. It starts costing exponentially more power to suck that air faster and faster (inverse cube law). That is one reason you see the power start falling off after the peak and that fall off occurs lower in the RPMs and is more severe on a 2v engine. The same thing that promotes torque down low is a bottleneck up high. With more valve area, you can flow more air volume without increase the velocity.

I'd pass up this barely more than a GT with a $500 trim package and wait for one of two models that will be significantly set apart from the GT, but not as expensive as the GT500:

The Mach 1 and the GT350.

The Mach 1 is especially unique with lots of changes that are exclusive to the Mach 1 (seats, gauge cluster, hood and shaker scoop, wheels, facia, shift knob, C pillar slope and louvered rear window, DOHC engine similar to the Cobra but not supercharged, all things that are signature Mach 1 traits)


Good post.

I think the current 4.6 in the Mustang has 3 valves per cylinder though.

I would bet on a 5.0 4v variation of the modular V8 to go in the Mach 1 or GT350 versions. An engine like that should be able to get 375hp pretty easily. Or they could alway bring back the Terminator.

 

exdeath

Lifer
Jan 29, 2004
13,679
10
81
Yeah it's 3v; two intake 1 exhaust I believe. There are all kinds of comprimises, but I just kept it to 2v vs 4v to illustrate the concepts.

They could always add a 4th engine to the modular series...

Boss 429 7.1L DOHC 4V modular with a square bore/stroke ratio...

I doubt another Terminator will happen any time soon. Coletti is retired and there is little if anything left of SVT. The bean counters run everything now... and you know how they work:

"hey profits are dropping how do we save them? cut quality and skimp on features to save money... wait profits and sales are dropping even faster now what happen!"

Or instead of hiring a car guy to actually design the car you just hire a famous guy to endorse it and slap his name on it and stand next to it and smile...

A 5.0 4v would most likely just be a stroked 4.6 "cammer", which anybody can do with their 4.6 any time they wanted, but it would be nice to have it done from the factory and it would have good marketing appeal bringing back that "5.0" badge. Boss 302 also has a nice ring to it. Though it would be nice to see 400 HP in the base 4.6 4v without having to increase displacement or run boost. Then you'd that much more when you stroked it (eh heh heh)

Either way, many options. As history has shown, it doesn't even really need equal or more power than the competition, as long as it costs less as well.

Personally I'm with you: S197 SVT Terminator. 400+ HP and under $40,000k sticker price. They missed the point with the Shelby fiasco. It doesn't matter if you have the fastest most powerful car ever made if it's out of reach of the average working class person the car is marketed for. The whole point of the muscle car/pony car concept was they offered value with their performance. $60k on a Shelby that is more of a side-grade to the Terminator than a straight upgrade, or a used low mileage Terminator for $25k with $1000 in mods for 500 HP with IRS and 400 some lbs lighter?
 

Pliablemoose

Lifer
Oct 11, 1999
25,195
0
56
I love the car, but would hate to own it because it's collectible, I'd feel guilty driving it.

I guess I'd rather get a convertible GT Premium & mod it a bit to fit my tastes, debadge it etc...

Then drive the crap out of it with much less guilt...