first new box in a decade, need a little advice

[sippyCUP]

Hey all,

I've been meaning to put together a computer for the last two years and I'm finally getting around to it. In the mean time I've been using a couple of laptops and netbooks... unfortunately the overprevalence of crappy flash on the internet overwhelms my laptops and I can't even play HD video, so it's time for an upgrade which will also let me catch up with all the cool FPS's I've missed out on.

I have a long-term fiscal outlook (I'm cheap) and I think buying a $400 graphics card is dumb when I can get the same performance for $100 in two years. Therefore, I'm looking at buying a decent motherboard (I want SATA3/USB3 and PCIe 3.0 if I can get, a fairly slow CPU since it affects gaming much less than GPU (Celeron 530 or the next-in-line Pentium to get hyperthreading, see below), and a budget to moderate GPU.

The standard Q&A is below, but I have a few questions I've been trying to resolve after researching all this morning.




A. What am I missing out on my doing a sandy bridge celeron rather than a pentium/i3/i5, other than raw performance in video editing/encoding/etc? So far I know I miss out on hyperthreading. How big of a deal is this for gaming? What about for virtualization (I do play with VM's, and will probably virtualize linux, but I won't necessarily need a hefty distro)? Keep in mind I'm used to running a centrino from 2005, so a sandy bridge celeron is going to be a huge improvement.

B. What is my best bet for a GPU to get started on all the games I missed out on the last 5 years? Keep in mind I don't need "future proofing" because I intend to buy a new one in 2-3 years.

C. LG 1155 looks like my platform, but I haven't decided on chipset/mobo yet. Any solid price/features winners here? What features should I make sure I get other than the ones I mentioned?

D. I think SLI would destroy my heat/noise economy in the cases I'm looking at, but how viable an option is getting a mobo with dual 16x slots and then grabbing another GPU for SLI when prices come down?




Standard questions follow, thanks for your time!








1. What YOUR PC will be used for. That means what types of tasks you'll be performing.

Internet and gaming, but it doesn't have to be cutting edge for gaming. It has to be quiet, so I'm planning on buying an Antec Solo II or a Fractal Dynamics R3.

2. What YOUR budget is. A price range is acceptable as long as it's not more than a 20% spread.

I am willing to spend up to $1000 on the box, excluding monitor. I think I can get away with less than $1000 but I'm open-minded.

3. What country YOU will be buying YOUR parts from.

USA, Washington state.

4. IF YOU have a brand preference. That means, are you an Intel-Fanboy, AMD-Fanboy, ATI-Fanboy, nVidia-Fanboy, Seagate-Fanboy, WD-Fanboy, etc.

Definitely no bias here. I understand Intel chips are faster and cooler than AMD, so I am leaning that direction.

5. If YOU intend on using any of YOUR current parts, and if so, what those parts are.

NA


7. IF YOU plan on overclocking or run the system at default speeds.

Might overclock down the road, not a primary consideration.

8. What resolution will you be using?

I have a 22-ish" LCD, so 1920x1080 (native) would be ideal, but I'm not above using 1600x900 if I need to.

9. WHEN do you plan to build it?

I want to order everything within the week, then upgrade again in 2-3 years.

 

[krnmastersgt]

A. Quite a lot in terms of raw compute power and speed for some applications. Games, while not optimized all that well can still be pretty taxing on a CPU. What games were you specifically looking to play? Modern games might require a bit more oomph in the CPU department but if you're only playing older titles you can get away with a pretty cheap CPU.

B. Depends on your resolution primarily, but also if you want cost efficiency how many games are you planning on catching up on?

C. 1155 is likely the socket for you, there's quite a few chipsets each with their own distinct advantages.
H family: Typically the cheapest of any given generation of chipsets, usually also the most lacking in features as these are basic boards with just enough functionality for practical usage.
B75: A bit of a step-up from the H family for the most part, but does lack some features such as ability to overclock, some Intel technologies like SRT.
Z family: Top of the line, if this family doesn't have the features you're looking for then no board should (unless it's some obscure tech). Overclocking, SRT, USB 3.0 it's got it all. Of course this comes along with being the most expensive of the lot.
Lots of small variants in the H and Z families so you should narrow down more of what you want from a board before deciding upon one.

D. Typically you'll get better average performance from buying a newer generation card as opposed to grabbing a second and going for SLI/CF. From a heat and power consumption standpoint it is far more logical as well. I'd only recommend SLI to super high end systems that are playing well beyond common resolutions.

 

[sippyCUP]

As far as the games I want to play, I'd be happy with playing up to Crysis 1... albeit it's got scaling graphics so I may actually need a lot of CPU/GPU to play it maxed out.

 

[skipsneeky2]

A core i3 2100 would be a excellent start for a budget gaming system,i had one paired with a gtx560 and it was a excellent budget build.

Most might agree with a suggestion of a 6870 for its bang for buck factor under the $200 price range,the i3 i used and suggest packs more punch then any amd quad while running very cool,even on the stock cooler it impressed me.

 

[krnmastersgt]

Well if you want to get the best bang for your buck for the full $1000 budget, mfenn's sticky is pretty much an ideal build aside from maybe short time promos that come up.

If however you're not that serious about the whole gaming scene and wouldn't mind saving a decent wad of cash (sounds to me like you are), I have a few cost saving changes:
1. Step down the video card to something like this XFX HD 7850 for $200 AR which is a pretty nice price for the performance. If you're looking to save a bit more, in terms of cost effective this XFX 6870 for $150 AR is actually a great price for the performance and the twin fans are nice.
2. As skip suggested, an i3 2100 is a pretty nice CPU in terms of cost effectiveness. Few titles require a true quad-core, and most of the modern ones can still perform decently off an i3. This i3 2120 for $125 is nice.
3. Stepping down to the i3 means that a Z77 board is no longer necessary, you could grab this ASRock Z75 Pro 3 for $85.


If you want the best possible machine for $1000, mfenn's build is pretty close to it. But the changes I propose could still put together a nice casual gaming machine for a decent chunk less.
Video card: $110 less if you grab the 7850, $160 if you get the 6870. (not counting tax if your state is charged tax by NE).
CPU + Motherboard: Around $80 less, that combo deal + promo is pretty nice.

The video card change is easily justifiable imo, unless you want to play the latest and greatest titles the 7850 and 6870 are still very strong cards. For cost effectiveness that 6870 is really nice. The CPU + motherboard on the other hand, due to that promo + combo discount, the $80 difference is still a decent amount but so is the extra power and OCing you get from the 3570K (just grab a cheap cooler like the 212+).

 

[DSF]

So are you interested in continuing to play new releases as they come out, or do you purely want to catch up on old games that you missed?

BF3, for example, can take pretty much all the CPU power you're willing to throw at it if you play in a packed server, but it will still run on less powerful CPUs. I play at acceptable framerates on 32 player servers on an overclocked E4500 (original generation low-cache Core2Duo.)

 

[sippyCUP]

So are you interested in continuing to play new releases as they come out, or do you purely want to catch up on old games that you missed?

BF3, for example, can take pretty much all the CPU power you're willing to throw at it if you play in a packed server, but it will still run on less powerful CPUs. I play at acceptable framerates on 32 player servers on an overclocked E4500 (original generation low-cache Core2Duo.)

I'm happy to play old releases and what's curently out there, since I can upgrade later to play releases that come out later.

I just want to make sure that the platform/chipset I get will let me do that, IE in 2-3 years I can buy an ivy bridge i5 extreme and whatever currently $500 GPU for dirt cheap.

 

[sippyCUP]

Thank you for your suggestions, I think I'm close to deciding. Let me pose one more question:

E. How important is hyperthreading? What games/apps will I see an actual benefit from HT?

Thanks,
Eric

 

[krnmastersgt]

Well firstly, Hyper Threading is just effectively having twice as many cores even if they aren't quite as powerful. If you have a true quad (an i5) then Hyper Threading is basically useless as there are VERY few titles on the market that are capable of scaling off more than 2-4 threads, and most of the ones that can don't require it. BF3 is probably the only exception to this rule I can think of, while still playable as DSF has said it does perform significantly better with more CPU power behind it.

If HT is only an issue really between i5 or i7, and for the purposes of gaming it's useless to go from 4 to 8 threads. An i3 on the other hand has HT, so you'll get 4 threads from its 2 cores. Not quite as strong as a true quad, but it's enough to get the job done for the most part.

 

[mfenn]

Well if you want to get the best bang for your buck for the full $1000 budget, mfenn's sticky is pretty much an ideal build aside from maybe short time promos that come up.

If however you're not that serious about the whole gaming scene and wouldn't mind saving a decent wad of cash (sounds to me like you are), I have a few cost saving changes:
1. Step down the video card to something like this XFX HD 7850 for $200 AR which is a pretty nice price for the performance. If you're looking to save a bit more, in terms of cost effective this XFX 6870 for $150 AR is actually a great price for the performance and the twin fans are nice.
2. As skip suggested, an i3 2100 is a pretty nice CPU in terms of cost effectiveness. Few titles require a true quad-core, and most of the modern ones can still perform decently off an i3. This i3 2120 for $125 is nice.
3. Stepping down to the i3 means that a Z77 board is no longer necessary, you could grab this ASRock Z75 Pro 3 for $85.


If you want the best possible machine for $1000, mfenn's build is pretty close to it. But the changes I propose could still put together a nice casual gaming machine for a decent chunk less.
Video card: $110 less if you grab the 7850, $160 if you get the 6870. (not counting tax if your state is charged tax by NE).
CPU + Motherboard: Around $80 less, that combo deal + promo is pretty nice.

The video card change is easily justifiable imo, unless you want to play the latest and greatest titles the 7850 and 6870 are still very strong cards. For cost effectiveness that 6870 is really nice. The CPU + motherboard on the other hand, due to that promo + combo discount, the $80 difference is still a decent amount but so is the extra power and OCing you get from the 3570K (just grab a cheap cooler like the 212+).

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: Very good advice!

 

[mfenn]

Thank you for your suggestions, I think I'm close to deciding. Let me pose one more question:

E. How important is hyperthreading? What games/apps will I see an actual benefit from HT?

Thanks,
Eric

3D rendering and video encoding if you get a quad, pretty much everything if you get a dual. I would say it's not worth it for quads.

 

[sippyCUP]

F. I've narrowed it down to a GTX560 or a 7870, and I'm really just concerned about idle and at load heat load at this point. I've heard the GTX560 runs hotter, how much truth is there to this statement?

 

[sippyCUP]

This is what I've put together:

CPU: Celeron G530
Mobo: Gigabyte GA-H61MA-D3V. H61 board with USB3, $70.
GPU: Sapphire 6870 1gig, $160 after rebate. Hopefully better thermal perf. than a GTX 560.
Ram: Kingston DDR3 1600, $27
Case: Define R3, $80 on sale since the R4 was released
PSU: Antec VP-450, $38. I may upgrade this to a seasonic or a better antec, gotta do a little more research here.
CPU Heatsink: Will test out the stock cooler, if not adequate, I'll get a thermaltake 212.
HDD: Not sure yet, 500 to 1TB 7200rpm, spinny-type.

Any thoughts, esp on the GPU/PSU? The only thing I'll seem to miss on the H61 board is good sata3 support if I decide to get an SSD down the road.

Thanks, Eric

 

[krnmastersgt]

Have fun trying to run Crysis on a G530

Is there a reason why you're going for such a lower-end system than what you've budgeted for?

 

[VirtualLarry]

Any thoughts, esp on the GPU/PSU? The only thing I'll seem to miss on the H61 board is good sata3 support if I decide to get an SSD down the road.

Which you probably will, eventually. Get at least an H67, or a B75 board, IMHO.

 

[krnmastersgt]

This is what I've put together:

CPU: Celeron G530
Mobo: Gigabyte GA-H61MA-D3V. H61 board with USB3, $70.
GPU: Sapphire 6870 1gig, $160 after rebate. Hopefully better thermal perf. than a GTX 560.
Ram: Kingston DDR3 1600, $27
Case: Define R3, $80 on sale since the R4 was released
PSU: Antec VP-450, $38. I may upgrade this to a seasonic or a better antec, gotta do a little more research here.
CPU Heatsink: Will test out the stock cooler, if not adequate, I'll get a thermaltake 212.
HDD: Not sure yet, 500 to 1TB 7200rpm, spinny-type.

Any thoughts, esp on the GPU/PSU? The only thing I'll seem to miss on the H61 board is good sata3 support if I decide to get an SSD down the road.

Thanks, Eric

CPU: I think you went a little too far with the cost saving measures, could at the very least step-up to the Pentium G600 line (I think the i3 2100 would be the best choice though)
Motherboard: Missing out on features like USB 3.0 and SATA 3 as well, and for that price you could easily grab a B75 board which gives you a few more features. Not sure why that H61 board is so pricey.
Video Card: The XFX I linked earlier is $10 less after rebate, features a dual fan set-up, and XFX's customer support is extremely fast and helpful (from my personal experience at least).
RAM: Are you opting for only 4 GB? In terms of cost efficiency you get better $/GB at 8 GB currently, not to mention it will let you run multiple programs while gaming without any performance issues.
PSU: That unit should actually be fine for the most part, not great but not bad either.
CPU Cooler: For a G530, you'd be crazy to not just stick to the stock cooler. Why pay for a cooler that's effectively almost 50% of the price of CPU it's cooling at this end?
Hard Drive: The 1-2TB area is the sweet spot for cost efficiency.

 

[azeem40]

$10 after rebate??

 

[krnmastersgt]

$10 after rebate??

My bad, forgot to put the word less in there!

I'd love a 6870 for $10 though

 

[mfenn]

CPU: I think you went a little too far with the cost saving measures, could at the very least step-up to the Pentium G600 line (I think the i3 2100 would be the best choice though)
Motherboard: Missing out on features like USB 3.0 and SATA 3 as well, and for that price you could easily grab a B75 board which gives you a few more features. Not sure why that H61 board is so pricey.
Video Card: The XFX I linked earlier is $10 less after rebate, features a dual fan set-up, and XFX's customer support is extremely fast and helpful (from my personal experience at least).
RAM: Are you opting for only 4 GB? In terms of cost efficiency you get better $/GB at 8 GB currently, not to mention it will let you run multiple programs while gaming without any performance issues.
PSU: That unit should actually be fine for the most part, not great but not bad either.
CPU Cooler: For a G530, you'd be crazy to not just stick to the stock cooler. Why pay for a cooler that's effectively almost 50% of the price of CPU it's cooling at this end?
Hard Drive: The 1-2TB area is the sweet spot for cost efficiency.

:thumbsup: Completely agree. Especially with regard to the mobo. The advent of $60 B75 boards with SATA 6Gb/s and USB 3.0 like the ASRock B75M-GL has made all but the most bargain basement H61 boards obsolete.

 

[sippyCUP]

I decided to go with the Sapphire because of all the bad things I'd heard about XFX tech support. Despite the lifetime warranty, which I would like to have, I've heard that they ship refurbs out for the RMA's. What's your guy's experiences with XFX?

As for the CPU, I'm going celeron based on this Tom's Hardware article: http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/gaming-pc-do-it-yourself-geforce-gtx-560,3216.html

Basically, according to their tests, CPU doesn't really help with 1920 gaming, and I don't do enough "other stuff" to really need a better CPU at this time.

On the mobo, I actually discovered the B75 boards at the same time you guys suggested I go with them, and I totally agree. I upgraded to a Gigabyte B75 board for like $5 more than the H61 board.

I upgraded the PSU to a 520W Seasonic M12II for $60.

Eric

 

[krnmastersgt]

I decided to go with the Sapphire because of all the bad things I'd heard about XFX tech support. Despite the lifetime warranty, which I would like to have, I've heard that they ship refurbs out for the RMA's. What's your guy's experiences with XFX?

As for the CPU, I'm going celeron based on this Tom's Hardware article: http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/gaming-pc-do-it-yourself-geforce-gtx-560,3216.html

Basically, according to their tests, CPU doesn't really help with 1920 gaming, and I don't do enough "other stuff" to really need a better CPU at this time.

On the mobo, I actually discovered the B75 boards at the same time you guys suggested I go with them, and I totally agree. I upgraded to a Gigabyte B75 board for like $5 more than the H61 board.

I upgraded the PSU to a 520W Seasonic M12II for $60.

Eric

I've had no issues with XFX's support, but like I said that's my personal experience and I've only had to deal with them 2-3 times so far.

As for the CPU, I don't think you really read the article enough. They were working with a super restricted budget for a $500 system, you can up the build to $1000. Their goal with that decision is that they'd rather have a really powerful video card than a balanced CPU + GPU as it yielded slightly better framerates. But they said themselves it's not a terribly balanced gaming system.

I'm also not sure what charts you were looking at, aside from benches where neither the $500 system or $650 system could handle in the slightest (like Crysis on Ultra).

No reason to pay even more for tha B75 board, just because it's low price doesn't mean it's really any lower quality effectively. The ASRock that mfenn linked is just fine.

The PSU upgrade is nice, still not REALLY necessary but it's nice regardless. I just don't think you should spend money upgrading the PSU while crippling some of the system components unless you plan on upgrading regularly.

 

[DSF]

I decided to go with the Sapphire because of all the bad things I'd heard about XFX tech support. Despite the lifetime warranty, which I would like to have, I've heard that they ship refurbs out for the RMA's. What's your guy's experiences with XFX?

Sending out refurbs as replacements is pretty common practice across the industry. What do you think they do with all the video cards that come back with one minor issue? Fix it and send it back out.

It's really not an insidious policy, it reduces waste and keeps costs down.

I've never had to use their warranty, the 8800GT I bought from them is still going strong 5 years later. Overclocked it and added an aftermarket heatsink, and they'll still honor the warranty.

 

[mfenn]

Sending out refurbs as replacements is pretty common practice across the industry. What do you think they do with all the video cards that come back with one minor issue? Fix it and send it back out.

It's really not an insidious policy, it reduces waste and keeps costs down.

I've never had to use their warranty, the 8800GT I bought from them is still going strong 5 years later. Overclocked it and added an aftermarket heatsink, and they'll still honor the warranty.

Agree. Refurbs as replacements is standard practice in this industry. Most companies will send out a higher-end reburb out before they pull something from new stock. Hell, for most cards over 1 year old, there probably isn't any new stock to be had.

 

[sippyCUP]

I ended up going with the XFX on ya'lls recommendations. I stuck with the Gigabyte because I was able to find a review detailing the CPU voltage regulation whereas I could not for asrock, biostar, etc B75 boards. And honestly I was sick of reviewing crap, so I just decided to pull the trigger

The parts arrive tomorrow, should be fun!

 

[krnmastersgt]

Grats on finally pulling the trigger, hope you enjoy your new system!

Do tell us how you enjoy the system compared to the laptops from over the past few years