First! Go USA!

[LikeLinus]

You’ve been on this board for more than twenty years, show me a single post by you, or anyone for that matter, who gave one shit about the people of Afghanistan.

Page 42 - Why Biden is pulling the US -- and NATO -- out of Afghanistan

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"leave so much and so many behind failing at giving basic communication with their allies?"

"There is no reason to expect mercy for those trapped behind enemy lines."

I'm not going through all the post, but those seem at the very least, sympathetic to those that we left behind. It's a 73 page thread though and that's just what I found in 2 minutes on Google.

I think some people care, but what are we supposed to do about it? It was a decision made by the administration and government. Nothing we could do.

 

[dank69]

Page 42 - Why Biden is pulling the US -- and NATO -- out of Afghanistan

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"leave so much and so many behind failing at giving basic communication with their allies?"

"There is no reason to expect mercy for those trapped behind enemy lines."

I'm not going through all the post, but those seem at the very least, sympathetic to those that we left behind. It's a 73 page thread though and that's just what I found in 2 minutes on Google.

I think some people care, but what are we supposed to do about it? It was a decision made by the administration and government. Nothing we could do.

The same people making those statements didn't give a shit when similar things happened under Trump. They only pretended to care when it made a convenient club to hit Biden/Democrats.

 

[LikeLinus]

The same people making those statements didn't give a shit when similar things happened under Trump. They only pretended to care when it made a convenient club to hit Biden/Democrats.

No clue, sorry, I don't follow P&N that often. But we're essentially saying that no one gives a shit what happen to the Afghans, so again, why the hell did it take 20+ years to GTFO of there? I don't have the answer, was just curious. My only thought was that it seemed like a better time many years ago one Bin Laden was killed. I could be completely wrong though.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

The flip side to that, how many Afghans died after we left suddenly?

Far less than the number that died after we arrived suddenly.

 

[dank69]

No clue, sorry, I don't follow P&N that often. But we're essentially saying that no one gives a shit what happen to the Afghans, so again, why the hell did it take 20+ years to GTFO of there? I don't have the answer, was just curious. My only thought was that it seemed like a better time many years ago one Bin Laden was killed. I could be completely wrong though.

No we aren't saying that. We're saying that people who believe that Biden could have done better didn't care about Afghans until it was politically expedient, and then showed that they don't actually care about Afghans by screaming "don't bring the refugees here!" the very next day. The people who actually gave a shit about Afghans would have spoken up all along, and those people do exist.

 

[Commodus]

The flip side to that, how many Afghans died after we left suddenly? Wasn't Biden warned something like this would happen? It's been awhile, but didn't he claim ignorance that no one told him shit would go sideways if we just all up and left? All those people trying to get on the planes and the Taliban came in and took over?

We keep talking about American troops, but what about the people we were there to support and help for 20+ years? Was it really the best possible manner in the grand scheme of things? I don't have the answer, just curious about the whole situation.

Realistically, the US was faced with three prospects.

To start, there was the status quo; don't change a thing, just hope things sort themselves out. I suspect you'll agree that wasn't a realistic option, since it meant an indefinite stay that would fuel resentment without addressing deeper problems. There would still be the Taliban and other extremist groups; there would still be tragic losses of life.

Let's say the US tackled some of the problems with its presence and found a way it could foster a lasting, peaceful democracy in Afghanistan. That wasn't going to happen overnight. It would more likely take decades, both to implement institutional reforms and to oversee a cultural shift as the more extreme or corrupt elements phase out. And that's more of an "if" than a "when" as there are many pressures on the country inside and out.

The third option, of course, was to withdraw. This had horrible consequences of its own for civil liberties and safety in Afghanistan, but it also cut American losses and limited the fodder for extremists hoping to recruit followers. To some extent, it's also about correcting American politics by getting the US out of "forever wars" that accomplish little.

 

[ivwshane]

No clue, sorry, I don't follow P&N that often. But we're essentially saying that no one gives a shit what happen to the Afghans, so again, why the hell did it take 20+ years to GTFO of there? I don't have the answer, was just curious. My only thought was that it seemed like a better time many years ago one Bin Laden was killed. I could be completely wrong though.

Even though you have yet to address my original question and concern I’ll address yours.

We stayed in the Middle East for decades because WE created a power vacuum. The intent was to build up Afghanistan and Iraq enough that they could support themselves with out being overtaking by “bad guys”. However not only did that not happen, it was never going to happen because in order to get to that point we would have to engage in actual nation building which would have required resources and money like we’ve never seen before and as a country that can barely take care of its self there was no way in hell Americans would have gone along with it.

So we were left with only two options, maintain status quo or cut our losses and run. Obama tried and failed, trump tried and failed, and finally Biden tried and succeeded.

So now, kindly, answer my question, how could Biden have done better getting us out?

Bonus question; how many people of Afghanistan died because of our withdrawal and how did that compare to when we maintained forces there? Same question but what about US personnel?

 

[fskimospy]

Biden exited Afghanistan is the best possible manner. Note the word possible. With the deal Trump cut with the Taliban, Biden could have left as he did or stayed and restarted the fight with the Taliban. How many more American troops would you have seen killed in Afghanistan? Because since Biden's pullout, the number of American troops killed there has been precisely zero. I agree that Obama should have immediately pulled out of Afghanistan after Bin Laden was killed.

I think Bush, Obama, and Trump all got caught up in the same trap, which is they wanted to leave Afghanistan but the military/intelligence community kept telling them if they did the place would collapse and the US would suffer a humiliating defeat. So they stayed, and stayed, and stayed. Trump had the right instincts to end the war in Afghanistan but instead of doing it he half assed it and cut a deal with the Taliban.

Realistically, the US was faced with three prospects.

To start, there was the status quo; don't change a thing, just hope things sort themselves out. I suspect you'll agree that wasn't a realistic option, since it meant an indefinite stay that would fuel resentment without addressing deeper problems. There would still be the Taliban and other extremist groups; there would still be tragic losses of life.

Let's say the US tackled some of the problems with its presence and found a way it could foster a lasting, peaceful democracy in Afghanistan. That wasn't going to happen overnight. It would more likely take decades, both to implement institutional reforms and to oversee a cultural shift as the more extreme or corrupt elements phase out. And that's more of an "if" than a "when" as there are many pressures on the country inside and out.

The third option, of course, was to withdraw. This had horrible consequences of its own for civil liberties and safety in Afghanistan, but it also cut American losses and limited the fodder for extremists hoping to recruit followers. To some extent, it's also about correcting American politics by getting the US out of "forever wars" that accomplish little.

As far as option 2 goes that was our plan for the last 20 years and it yielded nothing. I’ve never heard a convincing argument for why the next 20 years would be different.

 

[Jaskalas]

So now, kindly, answer my question, how could Biden have done better getting us out?

Not surrender key military positions until our people were safely evacuated?
The whole idea of letting the Taliban enter Kabul, control the streets, and "secure" the airport for all the time it took us to actually evacuate was ridiculous.
Surrendering the city meant Americans and Allies were at the mercy of the Taliban. The military should be exiting positions AFTER our people. Not before.

 

[LikeLinus]

Even though you have yet to address my original question and concern I’ll address yours.

We stayed in the Middle East for decades because WE created a power vacuum. The intent was to build up Afghanistan and Iraq enough that they could support themselves with out being overtaking by “bad guys”. However not only did that not happen, it was never going to happen because in order to get to that point we would have to engage in actual nation building which would have required resources and money like we’ve never seen before and as a country that can barely take care of its self there was no way in hell Americans would have gone along with it.

So we were left with only two options, maintain status quo or cut our losses and run. Obama tried and failed, trump tried and failed, and finally Biden tried and succeeded.

So now, kindly, answer my question, how could Biden have done better getting us out?

Bonus question; how many people of Afghanistan died because of our withdrawal and how did that compare to when we maintained forces there? Same question but what about US personnel?

I already answered your question. I think we should have pulled out much longer ago and not let this go on for 20 years. But then to all the sudden pull out totally, that is what I questions. To try and answer your question, possibly a staged exit by bring back groups of soldiers, but still securing the city for as long as possible. Not pull everything at once where you have men, women and children trying to climb into planes and the chaos that ensued afterwards. Had there been a gradual retraction from the situation, it may have gone smoother. Again, this is all theoretical and just a guess. I'm not a military strategist and I highly doubt you are either. Not sure why you demand an answer I already said I don't have, but that doesn't mean I'm not sure it was handled right.

 

[Ajay]

What is everyone talking about? This is a direct quote from the OP:

Seems a bit lacking in substance...

Hmm blank posts result in non-existent quotes.

 

[Commodus]

I think Bush, Obama, and Trump all got caught up in the same trap, which is they wanted to leave Afghanistan but the military/intelligence community kept telling them if they did the place would collapse and the US would suffer a humiliating defeat. So they stayed, and stayed, and stayed. Trump had the right instincts to end the war in Afghanistan but instead of doing it he half assed it and cut a deal with the Taliban.

As far as option 2 goes that was our plan for the last 20 years and it yielded nothing. I’ve never heard a convincing argument for why the next 20 years would be different.

I don't think the US really addressed underlying issues (the withdrawal revealed mountains of institutional problems), but I'll agree that any success in the next 20 years was tentative at best. I'm discussing more of a theoretical situation where the US magically found the right solution.

 

[UNCjigga]

That didn't last.

Oh that was way back…when I was more to the right side of the political spectrum (but as a newly minted Murican didn’t quite appreciate the ra ra jingoism of the neo cons and just wanted to reclaim OT for the neffers. Thus began my slow journey to the Left.)

 

[ivwshane]

Not surrender key military positions until our people were safely evacuated?
The whole idea of letting the Taliban enter Kabul, control the streets, and "secure" the airport for all the time it took us to actually evacuate was ridiculous.
Surrendering the city meant Americans and Allies were at the mercy of the Taliban. The military should be exiting positions AFTER our people. Not before.

So keep more forces there…for how long?

 

[ivwshane]

I already answered your question. I think we should have pulled out much longer ago and not let this go on for 20 years. But then to all the sudden pull out totally, that is what I questions. To try and answer your question, possibly a staged exit by bring back groups of soldiers, but still securing the city for as long as possible. Not pull everything at once where you have men, women and children trying to climb into planes and the chaos that ensued afterwards. Had there been a gradual retraction from the situation, it may have gone smoother. Again, this is all theoretical and just a guess. I'm not a military strategist and I highly doubt you are either. Not sure why you demand an answer I already said I don't have, but that doesn't mean I'm not sure it was handled right.

So he should have ignored the deal trump made and instead increase forces to shore up an already weakened government with a president who was fleeting (along with US trained military) because of trumps public support for the taliban instead of the current afghan government?

How long should we have stayed in order to bring in a new president and rebuild the military force?

I ask you these questions because you, like a lot of Americans are ignorant on the subject and unknowingly repeat right wing talking points like you did in the original post I quoted by you.

If you are truly concerned then your first step would be to better understand the situation so that you aren’t blindly repeating Republican talking points. Once educated on the subject, you can then find better sources of information and experts on the matter who aren’t interested in just pushing a narrative. From there you can make an informed opinion about how Biden handled the situation and what he could have done differently.

 

[LikeLinus]

So keep more forces there…for how long?

Well, you kept asking me over and over what my idea was, let me post it again.

"Not pull everything at once where you have men, women and children trying to climb into planes and the chaos that ensued afterwards. Had there been a gradual retraction from the situation, it may have gone smoother. Again, this is all theoretical and just a guess. I'm not a military strategist and I highly doubt you are either. Not sure why you demand an answer I already said I don't have, but that doesn't mean I'm not sure it was handled right."

Should I whine that you never replied and constantly badger you to give me a better option or what you think would have worked better? Because it's apparent that what we did, wasn't good for the Afghan people and you want everyone else's ideas and opinions. Give us YOUR strategy.

Don't be one of those people who provide no ideas and try to force everyone else to give you ideas. Please, tell us what you have in mind?

 

[LikeLinus]

So he should have ignored the deal trump made and instead increase forces to shore up an already weakened government with a president who was fleeting (along with US trained military) because of trumps public support for the taliban instead of the current afghan government?

How long should we have stayed in order to bring in a new president and rebuild the military force?

You've asked me multiple times and I've given you the same answer. What is YOUR idea? Or are you one of those people who just trash others and have no original ideals or resolutions for yourself? At least some people are asking question and asking. But that isn't enough for you, so you must have a master plan. Right??? Let's hear it.

<insert excuse here>
In other words, we put our balls to the wall, and we asked the hard-hitting questions and at the very least, asked those questions and were wondering. All you've done is tried to make us prove it or have been combative. That is basically all you've done. Put up, or STFU.

 

[ivwshane]

You've asked me multiple times and I've given you the same answer. What is YOUR idea? Or are you one of those people who just trash others and have no original ideals or resolutions for yourself? At least some people are asking question and asking. But that isn't enough for you, so you must have a master plan. Right??? Let's hear it.

<insert excuse here>
In other words, we put our balls to the wall, and we asked the hard-hitting questions and at the very least, asked those questions and were wondering. All you've done is tried to make us prove it or have been combative. That is basically all you've done. Put up, or STFU.

I have yet to hear an actual strategy from anyone, expert or not, that would have given us better results then we what we got.

Your reply is filled with ignorance and you refuse to acknowledge it which is why you can’t offer anything more than vague generalities that completely ignore the reality of what was going on.

Do you agree or disagree that your claim that “Biden could have done better exiting Afghanistan” was baseless?

 

[LikeLinus]

I have yet to hear an actual strategy from anyone, expert or not, that would have given us better results then we what we got.

Your reply is filled with ignorance and you refuse to acknowledge it which is why you can’t offer anything more than vague generalities that completely ignore the reality of what was going on.

Do you agree or disagree that your claim that “Biden could have done better exiting Afghanistan” was baseless?

I made it very clear that I was asking questions because I was not old enough to be involved in the original or understand decision."

You claim "I ask you these questions because you, like a lot of Americans are ignorant on the subject and unknowingly repeat right wing talking points like you did in the original post I quoted by you."

So your response is not ambiguous, it has a directive or slant to a certain party. What do you want me to tell you? I get that a measurement to anyone's suggestion will never be enough, but what should be do beyond that?

 

[JEDIYoda]

Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country!!!

 

[ivwshane]

I made it very clear that I was asking questions because I was not old enough to be involved in the original or understand decision."

You claim "I ask you these questions because you, like a lot of Americans are ignorant on the subject and unknowingly repeat right wing talking points like you did in the original post I quoted by you."

So your response is not ambiguous, it has a directive or slant to a certain party. What do you want me to tell you? I get that a measurement to anyone's suggestion will never be enough, but what should be do beyond that?

I want you to understand when you are repeating baseless talking points, propaganda, and/or misinformation.

There is nothing wrong with asking questions or getting the opinions of others but when people make baseless claims, it’s important to recognize them and call them out.

 

[LikeLinus]

I want you to understand when you are repeating baseless talking points, propaganda, and/or misinformation.

There is nothing wrong with asking questions or getting the opinions of others but when people make baseless claims, it’s important to recognize them and call them out.

Question, what makes my questions "baseless" and can you give a definitive truth ti the questions that I asked that you consider my questions baseless?

 

[ivwshane]

Question, what makes my questions "baseless" and can you give a definitive truth ti the questions that I asked that you consider my questions baseless?

/facepalm

Your questions weren’t baseless which is why they were answered, this claim however was:

Well, there certainly was a much better way to pull out and end the conflict than what Biden did.

Do you get it now?

 

[digiram]

I can't remember if I posted this is another thread, but having the benefit of hindsight, of course it was a terrible thing that never should have been done in the first place (and I am very much anti-war unless it's an absolute last resort of WW2 proportions. Not US imperialism ventures).

Anyway, I was speaking to a colleague who is from Iraq, and she was telling me about her childhood growing up there in Baghdad and Basrah. She had many good memories.

But then it dawned on me that she is about the same age as me, give or take. Which meant it's entirely possible that the reason she is where she is today (not Iraq) is because we invaded her country for a lie and she fled abroad as a result. I didn't inquire, but the fact that it is even a possibility made me very, very sad.

This is why I get pissed when certain people act like I should be thankful I’m here. No, you don’t get to bomb the country of origin I was born in and ask me to thank. I will take advantage of all that is available to me here, and you can F off. If you didn’t want me here, you shouldn’t have had any business there.

 

[digiram]

I remember there was a pnac website with plans laid out by neocons. It made me very sus of reaction we had to 911. I remember my buddy in college saying someone gotta pay, but I was thinking we need a thorough investigation and not a knee jerk reaction. What a mess that time period was. However, I’m actually more afraid of modern times. It seems so crazy that we can’t make better progress and humanity just keeps keeping on. I don’t dwell on all the geopolitical crap though. I keep my main priorities at a micro level.