Firemen's new role in the fight on terror

[AAjax]

Unlike police, firefighters and emergency medical personnel don't need warrants to access hundreds of thousands of homes and buildings each year, putting them in a position to spot behavior that could indicate terrorist activity or planning.

I think this is a bad idea, firemen dont need to be looked upon as police. It can often be counter to their primary purpose.

 

[Nebor]

This is horrible. Amounts to warrantless searches by government agents, and will cause people to start treating firemen like police. Terribly sad.

 

[Nebor]

This is fairly outrageous... no one else cares?

 

[jackschmittusa]

When going to private residences, for example, they are told to be alert for a person who is hostile, uncooperative or expressing hate or discontent with the United States

Discontent? Seems the bar for suspicion gets lower and lower.

 

[brxndxn]

Originally posted by: jackschmittusa

When going to private residences, for example, they are told to be alert for a person who is hostile, uncooperative or expressing hate or discontent with the United States

Discontent? Seems the bar for suspicion gets lower and lower.

They're just trying to make voting for a non-status-quo candidate illegal before the next election.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: Nebor
This is horrible. Amounts to warrantless searches by government agents, and will cause people to start treating firemen like police. Terribly sad.

Seriously, what the fuck is going on in this country?

On the other hand, this kind of cowboy lawyering seems pretty questionable from a legal standpoint. It's the kind of "clever" trick that really doesn't tend to impress judges too much. The police aren't limited by the law because they are police, they are limited by the law because they are government agents. You can't simply assign new tasks to an existing group and expect them to gain all sorts of new powers. From a legal standpoint, it seems likely that ANYONE engaged in police activity on behalf of the government would be subject to the same limitations as police, regardless of what other job they might have.

I don't get what the fascination is with trying to skirt the law in order to fight terrorism. Not only does it erode the rule of law that has built this country, but it seems completely unnecessary. People have been arguing for expanded government powers for years now, but NOBODY has made a good argument for why those powers are needed. Honestly, I think TV shows and movies like '24' have helped nurture a population that really thinks that's how you fight terrorism.

 

[1prophet]

Police have been doing something similar for years, but instead of firemen they were using conservation (environmental protection) officers to gain access.

 

[RightIsWrong]

Uhhh....do they really think that in the event a "terrorist" (Whatever that is) falls down and breaks his arm or leg that he is going to call ANYONE but a trusted ally into his residence to help take care of it?

This is just another stupid infomercial-type sell to the idiots that think a terrorist attack is likely in their area and are willing to do whatever some idiot in Washington tells them needs to be done to protect them from something that is less likely than them winning the powerball.

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: jackschmittusa

When going to private residences, for example, they are told to be alert for a person who is hostile, uncooperative or expressing hate or discontent with the United States

Discontent? Seems the bar for suspicion gets lower and lower.

God forbid any firemen run across P&N.

We are ALL going to Gitmo!! :shocked:

 

[Jeff7]

Originally posted by: Rainsford
...
Honestly, I think TV shows and movies like '24' have helped nurture a population that really thinks that's how you fight terrorism.

Indeed. Plenty of people do get their only "news" from fictional shows like that. Sex in movies and on TV is how it is in real life. CSI shows how police really do their forensics work, complete with magical supercomputers that can extrapolate a license plate number based on three pixels, or DNA tests that are done in 5 seconds, complete with access to the DNA structures of the entire US population.

 

[Vonkhan]

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: jackschmittusa

When going to private residences, for example, they are told to be alert for a person who is hostile, uncooperative or expressing hate or discontent with the United States

Discontent? Seems the bar for suspicion gets lower and lower.

God forbid any firemen run across P&N.

We are ALL going to Gitmo!! :shocked:

Don't waterboard me, bro! :shocked:

 

[teclis1023]

"Fire Safety Check"
"Uhh...I think we're fine here. Thanks anyways."
"Code Purple! Uncooperative Combatant! GET HIM!"

 

[ahurtt]

But the firemen or medical personnel still need a reason to be there. . .Like say a fire or a medical emergency. Not like they are just gonna be allowed to go cruising neighborhoods chopping down people's front doors to get a look inside.

Now. . .if an EMT or Fireman responding to a call for help happens to be inside somebody's home during the course of a response to a routine call and happens to notice that the person has "Death to America" posters on their wall and pictures of O.B.L. hanging all over the place or something and decides based on that to call in a tip to homeland security, can you really blame them? It's no different than if it were the UPS guy or the Domino's pizza guy really then is it? Just a concerned citizen calling in a tip. I just wish they could give the same training to everyone, not just firefighters and EMT's.

 

[Zedtom]

This is nothing new to property managers.

When I was in college I managed a small 18 unit building. The fire dept. would send a small crew out once a year to inspect the building for code violations. They would do the usual checkup of the boiler room and chemical storage areas. Then they would ask to see a few of the apartments to look for stacked up newspapers or other fire hazards. When I would protest and state that we had to give a tenant 24 hours notice before entering, they got tough and threatened to have me charged with interference.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: ahurtt
But the firemen or medical personnel still need a reason to be there. . .Like say a fire or a medical emergency. Not like they are just gonna be allowed to go cruising neighborhoods chopping down people's front doors to get a look inside.

Now. . .if an EMT or Fireman responding to a call for help happens to be inside somebody's home during the course of a response to a routine call and happens to notice that the person has "Death to America" posters on their wall and pictures of O.B.L. hanging all over the place or something and decides based on that to call in a tip to homeland security, can you really blame them? It's no different than if it were the UPS guy or the Domino's pizza guy really then is it? Just a concerned citizen calling in a tip. I just wish they could give the same training to everyone, not just firefighters and EMT's.

If people really see something disturbing enough to call in a tip, that's fine...but that's a totally different thing. Actively enlisting amateurs to help spot terrorists is stupid. I don't care what 2 day course these firemen or pizza delivery people have had, spotting terrorists is not their job, and chance are pretty good that "'Death to America' posters" are not going to be hanging on the walls. You really think we need to "train" people to report stuff like that?

Personally, I'd rather the Domino's guy just delivered a pizza instead of informing on everyone like we live in East Germany...he's delivering for Domino's pizza, is he REALLY the guy we want to rely on for this sort of thing? And fireman and EMTs...Jesus Christ, what a fucking brainstorm! Now, instead of doing their job and saving lives, they can draw on their many hours of classroom experience to decide whether or not the house that's burning down is a terrorist hideout, and whether the anti-Bush slogan on the t-shirt of the guy who's going into cardiac arrest is subversive enough to warrant reporting. You enlist amateurs, you get amateur results...especially when those amateurs are professionals in some area that they really should be concentrating on.

If a citizen is really concerned, they'll call in the tip. "Training" them to do so is a sure way to get a lot of useless information, because most people are pretty worthless at that sort of thing.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: Zedtom
This is nothing new to property managers.

When I was in college I managed a small 18 unit building. The fire dept. would send a small crew out once a year to inspect the building for code violations. They would do the usual checkup of the boiler room and chemical storage areas. Then they would ask to see a few of the apartments to look for stacked up newspapers or other fire hazards. When I would protest and state that we had to give a tenant 24 hours notice before entering, they got tough and threatened to have me charged with interference.

That's different. Presumably the fire department knew code and knew what constituted a fire hazard. A better analogy would be if those checks you are talking about were done by guys working for the post office as they went around delivering mail.

 

[MadRat]

But the Zedtom is right, the apartment leasees agreed to a specific set of privacy guidelines when they signed the lease. Just because a fireman demands to violate the pact is no reason to do so. The fireman must allow for the privacy of the individual in these cases and cannot legally be expected to violate those agreements. Even public interest is no excuse for a breach of one's civil rights.

 

[Deleted member 4644]

This is a bad idea.

But here is the really really important part...... can they use the info they gather in court??? Because that would be searching without a warrant.... and THAT would be a HUGE attack on our Constitution. If they are just calling in a tip, but the cops still need a warrant to be able to do anything, maybe that is not *sooo* bad.

 

[jackschmittusa]

But here is the really really important part...... can they use the info they gather in court??? Because that would be searching without a warrant.... and THAT would be a HUGE attack on our Constitution. If they are just calling in a tip, but the cops still need a warrant to be able to do anything, maybe that is not *sooo* bad.

Problem is: to get a warrant, you used to have to have "probable cause", which became "reasonable suspicion", and now, in the mad hunt for terrorists, it seems that "wild ass hunch" is good enough.

Most people realize that there will be more attacks some day, and none of the authorities wants the wheel of responsibility to stop on them in case a tip might be the real thing, so good judgment goes out the window. Everyone wants to be able to say that they did their part and are not responsible if something does happen, so citizen rights are just a minor inconvenience.