Fire Engineering magazine blasted FEMA's investigation of the WTC collapse

[K1052]

Originally posted by: laFiera
alright, English is not my native language...what in the world is a tin foil hat---i guess i should be asking, what doest that expression mean? i see that in the posts a lot and i have no clue what it means...

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=tinfoil+hat

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: laFiera
alright, English is not my native language...what in the world is a tin foil hat---i guess i should be asking, what doest that expression mean? i see that in the posts a lot and i have no clue what it means...

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=tinfoil+hat

2. tinfoil hat
Number 1 fashion accessory for unemployed conspiracy theorists around the world!

Look at that obviously an AT member works at Urban Dictionary.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Votingisanillusion

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Genx87

I saw the planes hit the towers.

Surprised the damn things didnt fall over on impact.

These wild conspiracy theories are comical.

Exactly, this BS has to stop. Planes flying into skyscrapers is no JFK.

Are you calling for censorship? Did you ask the mods to close the other thread?

Are you CIA?

Do you call for limits to the 1st amendment?

What do you think of the independant, prestigious Fire Engineering magazine outrage at the Bush-controlled investigation? This administration lied about Iraq; the results? 100,000 dead human beings! Who are you to order us to shut up because we think that this administration lied about 9/11 as well? Many victims families are outraged as well; they do not obey your order to shut up.

You obviously are new to P&N. No I would never call for censorship and I am not a Mod.

I am certainly not CIA and would never restrict the 1st Ammendment.

Looks to me the that Fire magazine is just as pissed as 49% of America.
Problem is they have to look at their own ranks because I recall a lot of Fire Depts supporting Bush for re-election and Police Depts too.

The Country is getting what it deserves.

 

[irwincur]

that they heard explosions around the 23st floor

I am wondering if... I know this is 'out there'... But, if maybe the immense pressure exerted on the building and on non supporting beams and bolts may have... hold on here...

Made some break at lower floors.

Do you know what a 20 ton I beam sounds like when it shatters or is torn in half. I am guessing that it can be pretty loud. How about bolts shooting out at the velocity of a rifle. Think about a champaign cork - that is loud and the velocity and pressure are much lower.




Like others, I would rather side with engineers. Most firefighters I know are nice people, but they are not architects or structural engineers. Which probably explains why they went into the building in the first place. I am sure that any engineer would have seen the situation and moved rapidly away from them.

 

[cKGunslinger]

Originally posted by: Votingisanillusion

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Genx87

I saw the planes hit the towers.

Surprised the damn things didnt fall over on impact.

These wild conspiracy theories are comical.

Exactly, this BS has to stop. Planes flying into skyscrapers is no JFK.

Are you calling for censorship? Did you ask the mods to close the other thread? Are you CIA? Do you call for limits to the 1st amendment?
What do you think of the independant, prestigious Fire Engineering magazine outrage at the Bush-controlled investigation? This administration lied about Iraq; the results? 100,000 dead human beings! Who are you to order us to shut up because we think that this administration lied about 9/11 as well? Many victims families are outraged as well; they do not obey your order to shut up.

:thumbsdown: Dave's kinda wacky, but he's no censor or opponent to the Bill of Rights.

You seem to have a knack for seeing a conspiracy where none likely exists. I think they call that paranoia.

 

[Votingisanillusion]

Paranoids did not die in Auschwitz.

 

[rahvin]

Originally posted by: MadRat
I find it interesting that common people mock intelligent questions.

I'm not mocking intelligent questions, I'm mocking idiocy. There is no intelligence in these questions at all.

Originally posted by: MadRat
These firefighters are simply asking hard questions. Rather than trying to help explain the answers the government has made it impossible to know the answers. If the government wanted to erase any doubt of a coverup then they'd of let the investigations take place. Its not like in each case the entire building wasn't cataloged piece by piece during its construction. There were identity numbers on virtually every steel girder and the reconstruction of key elements should have been simple enough if the markings survived.

Lets be clear on something, a community college course or on the job training in arson investigation is going to reveal NOTHING to any of these morons. The world trade centers were over a thousand foot tall steel skyscrapers with some of the most complex design ever done. The investigation into their failure was started on 9/12 and involved the original designers of the structure. Intricate finite element models of the structure were constructed and modeled under the impact and fire that followed. The failure point was determined to be from heat softening of the CONNECTIONS.

The weak point in any structure is the connections of beams to beams, columns to columns and beams to columns. It's these connections that softened to the point that they couldn't bear the weight of the structure above. Forensic investigation by the FBI forensic engineers confirmed that the design analysis of the failure was the correct mode of failure and dozens of professional engineers signed off on this conclusion. It's idiotic that a bunch of fireman think they can do a more complete analysis of the failure when the vast majority of them don't know a thing about how a high rise steel building behaves or how it's designed.

Originally posted by: MadRat
Instead the steel is largely sent to China and the UK. Why not send the metal to US steel plants? Its not like the cost of transport isn't going to make the steel worthless to the destination recieving it. Anyone that has chartered a train can tell you its quite expensive. But its nowhere as expensive as hauling steel truck by truck to a bulk transport to China.

Scrap steel is sold to the highest bidder, it's called a free market and the owners of the building are not obligated to sell the scrap to an american mill at a lower price.

Originally posted by: MadRat
If something bad did happen inside the federal chain of command on 9/11 wouldn't you want to know? Let them look. If there is nothing to hide then there is no danger that they will find something credible.

This isn't about the chain of command, this is a bunch of firemen questioning the conclusion on the mode of failure of a high rise structure that had a report prepared by some of the biggest names in structural engineering. It's idiotic and the people doing the questioning should be ashamed and OP and others that are echoing the call should be treated like the idiots they are.

 

[Votingisanillusion]

rahvin, the scandal lies in the destruction of evidence, and consequently in the fact that the official analysis of the collapse was a theoretical piece of crap, devoid of any proof. Engineers could not do a serious work.

From the first article I posted:

<< ?Except for the marginal benefit obtained from a three-day, visual walk-through of evidence sites conducted by ASCE investigation committee members?described by one close source as a ?tourist trip??no one?s checking the evidence for anything,? Manning said. ?As things now stand and if they continue in such fashion, the investigation into the World Trade Center fire and collapse will amount to paper- and computer-generated hypotheticals.?

Engineers have also complained that they have been shackled with bureaucratic restrictions that prevented them from examining the disaster site, interviewing witnesses and requesting crucial information like recorded distress calls to the police and fire departments. >>

That comes from a magazine called Fire Engineering, but you keep on pretending they are no engineers. You are not very honest. Engineering ... engineers ... see any connection?

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: irwincur

that they heard explosions around the 23st floor

I am wondering if... I know this is 'out there'... But, if maybe the immense pressure exerted on the building and on non supporting beams and bolts may have... hold on here...

Made some break at lower floors.

Do you know what a 20 ton I beam sounds like when it shatters or is torn in half. I am guessing that it can be pretty loud. How about bolts shooting out at the velocity of a rifle. Think about a champaign cork - that is loud and the velocity and pressure are much lower.




Like others, I would rather side with engineers. Most firefighters I know are nice people, but they are not architects or structural engineers. Which probably explains why they went into the building in the first place. I am sure that any engineer would have seen the situation and moved rapidly away from them.

According to the studies and analysis that have been done far, the "explosions" were exactly that. There were caused by failure of the concrete columns by what is known as "explosive thermal spalling," which is a well known and documented phenomena that regular concrete and high-strength concrete columns are subject to during failure modes.

So far almost all the studies by various engineering firms have agreed that it was the columns that failed and caused the collapse, not the steel trusses. So demanding these trusses be studied is little more than a red herring.

Of course that won't stop the wild-eyed conspiracy theorists from trying to claim this was all a government plan because they'll just ignore those inconvenient facts. Facts are kryptonite to the conspiracy supermen.

 

[rahvin]

Originally posted by: Votingisanillusion
rahvin, the scandal lies in the destruction of evidence, and consequently in the fact that the official analysis of the collapse was a theoretical piece of crap, devoid of any proof. Engineers could not do a serious work.

You don't know a god damned thing about what you are talking about. You are spewing crap with NO eduction or understanding of any of it. I'm a registered professional engineer in three states, I have a BS degree in Civil Engineering from an ABET accredited university, I'm a member of ASCE and have been for a decade, I read the article as published in the ASCE publication Civil Engineering and with my education, background and reading of the report I conclude that you are nitwit without a brain cell between your ears.

Originally posted by: Votingisanillusion
That comes from a magazine called Fire Engineering, but you keep on pretending they are no engineers. You are not very honest. Engineering ... engineers ... see any connection?

I thought engineers drove trains? :roll: Here's a headsup for you, a LOT of people call themselves engineers that aren't. A bunch of firefighters calling their arson investigation publication fire engineering has as much weight with me as the local garbage collector calling themself a sanitation engineer.

Lets conclude this with one statement. You dont' know what the fvck you are talking about so take your consipiracy theory and shove it up your a$$.

 

[cKGunslinger]

Originally posted by: Votingisanillusion
Paranoids did not die in Auschwitz.

Does your fall-out shelter have internet access? That's not very secure.


(Today, tHE verY Certain pAranoid kNows How to bEst stAy aleRt to sUrpriseS.)

 

[irwincur]

According to the studies and analysis that have been done far, the "explosions" were exactly that. There were caused by failure of the concrete columns by what is known as "explosive thermal spalling," which is a well known and documented phenomena that regular concrete and high-strength concrete columns are subject to during failure modes.

And that is why I am not an engineer. Just think, at one time I was considering it - probably a good thing that I did not.

Whatever the case, I knew there was a 'rational' reason behind these 'explosions'.

 

[rahvin]

For those that aren't Conspiracy theory believing idiots and would like to read the official report it can be found at:

http://www.fema.gov/library/wtcstudy.shtm

Most readers will be able to read the Executive Summary as this portion of the report is prepared for congress and as such is written towards the layperson with the understanding that the Congress critters if they read any of the report will read only this section. As such it is devoid of any serious technical discussions.

Chapter 2 Includes a detailed technical discussion of the main two towers, their design, strength and mode of failure. This chapter is highly technical so non-engineering people will find it difficult to read but the pictures bring detail to the technical discussion, they include pictures from the construction. By skimming the text even a layperson should be able to understand the mechanism of failure but it will take a little time and paitence in reading of the chapter. Those so inclined will likely find the chapter interesting and I encourage those with time and ability to take the time to read the actual report.

 

[morkinva]

You cannot come up with an answer for the collapse of wtc7:

1) There are fires in wtc7 for no apparent reason
2) Larry Silverstein recommends 'pulling it' (knocking it down)
3) No steel framed building before or since has collapsed because of fire. The Meridian building in Philly burned for like 15 or more hours, and was eventually taken down by wrecking ball.
4) It takes weeks if not months to rig charges to forcibly collapse a building.
5) The steel (evidence) is illegally removed and melted/sold
5) .....profit?

If they had put explosives in wtc7, why is it such a stretch for you to see that there could have been explosives in wtc1 and wtc2?

 

[tcsenter]

Instead the steel is largely sent to China and the UK. Why not send the metal to US steel plants? Its not like the cost of transport isn't going to make the steel worthless to the destination recieving it. Anyone that has chartered a train can tell you its quite expensive. But its nowhere as expensive as hauling steel truck by truck to a bulk transport to China.

US steel plants? lol!

Thanks to steel worker union's militant opposition to technology and modernization that would make the Taliban envious, there are no US steel plants.

There is no principle, tenet, or practice of structural and fire investigation that requires the entire structure to be preserved as evidence. Only evidence at the points of failure are preserved. We are talking thousands upon thousands of tons, where the hell are they supposed to keep it all?

No steel framed building before or since has collapsed because of fire. The Meridian building in Philly burned for like 15 or more hours, and was eventually taken down by wrecking ball.

How many loaded airliners slammed into the Meridian building at 400MPH in Philly? I forget.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: morkinva
You cannot come up with an answer for the collapse of wtc7:

1) There are fires in wtc7 for no apparent reason
2) Larry Silverstein recommends 'pulling it' (knocking it down)
3) No steel framed building before or since has collapsed because of fire. The Meridian building in Philly burned for like 15 or more hours, and was eventually taken down by wrecking ball.
4) It takes weeks if not months to rig charges to forcibly collapse a building.
5) The steel (evidence) is illegally removed and melted/sold
5) .....profit?

If they had put explosives in wtc7, why is it such a stretch for you to see that there could have been explosives in wtc1 and wtc2?

I haven't seen you come up with any reasons either. All you're doing is regurgitating the conspiracy stories of people, some of which either leave out or omit relevant facts, such as the fact the the ASCE study did sample and test the steel both from the rubble as well as the steel in the scrapyards.

Claiming that "No steel building has collapsed before because of fire.' is true. But that doesn't take into account the fact that debris also fell in those buildings and structurally undermined them.

Now I have to assume, being so convinced as you seem to be, that you have some formal training or experience in engineering and can actually comprehend the ASCE report enough to actually debunk it in your own words? If so, please do so. If not, excuse those of us who do have some engineering and training experience in here if we call BS on you, because we don't think you know wtf you're talking about.

 

[hemiram]

Originally posted by: Genx87
I saw the planes hit the towers.
Surprised the damn things didnt fall over on impact.
These wild conspiracy theories are comical.

When the second plane hit, one of the anchors on one of the channels (Don't remeber what one it was, too much remote action that day) had an engineer on the phone, and he said almost as soon as they started talking that they were going to come down, and it wouldn't be all that long. The anchorwoman was stunned, and he explained it very well and it happened exactly as he said it would.

The kooks kill me, they buy into all kinds of easily debunked crap, some of it so nonsensical you have to wonder if their primary residence isn't some kind of "Institute". Did all the kooks sleep through all their science classes?

 

[hemiram]

Originally posted by: rahvin
Like I said, I will rely on the expert analysis of PhD level structural and foresnsics engineers to determine failure of one of the largest buildings on the planet rather than some firefighters who had a couple courses in arson investigation (if you can even call them courses).

You got that right! There are lots of inocent people in prison for arson who are there because some half baked "arson investigator" says it's arson, and nobody who knows what they are doing checks their conclusions to see if they have a clue or not. I know someone who's aunt was nearly charged with attempted murder after her car burned and her 2 year old kid nearly burned up with it. Luckily, she had enough $$ to hire a real EXPERT who showed identical fires were caused by ignition switches shorting out and melting the plastic that ignited and dripped on the floor of the car. The so called "investigator" claimed it was an "accelerant". He looked like a total moron at the preliminary hearing, and the judge reamed the DA and the "investigators" on the case after he tossed it. One more reason to never go with a pub defender, she had one at first, and he wanted to "make a deal" for a year or two...

 

[digitalsm]

Uh? So fire fighters or "fire engineers" as some want top call them trump structural and civil engineers, many which have Masters and PhDs with decades of experiance? Uh I dont think so. And dont bring up that former Bush admin member, he is a frickin ECONOMIST.

 

[morkinva]

tscenter, obviously no airliners slammed into Meridian building just like none slammed into wtc7.

tasteslikechicken, you have completely avoided the question of their ability (as indicated by Silverstein) to bring down a building on command which requires explosives that were previously planted.

'Debris' fell in those buildings and structurally undermined them? So you are saying that the building fell by itself? Even so, address the Silverstein comment. Address the Silverstein comment. Address the Silverstein comment.

 

[hemiram]

Originally posted by: irwincur

that they heard explosions around the 23st floor

I am wondering if... I know this is 'out there'... But, if maybe the immense pressure exerted on the building and on non supporting beams and bolts may have... hold on here...

Made some break at lower floors.

Do you know what a 20 ton I beam sounds like when it shatters or is torn in half. I am guessing that it can be pretty loud. How about bolts shooting out at the velocity of a rifle. Think about a champaign cork - that is loud and the velocity and pressure are much lower.




Like others, I would rather side with engineers. Most firefighters I know are nice people, but they are not architects or structural engineers. Which probably explains why they went into the building in the first place. I am sure that any engineer would have seen the situation and moved rapidly away from them.

You should have heard my neighbor's house when the basement wall caved in due to water infiltration. I was walking my dog in the middle of the night ( I sleep days), and heard this groaning noise. I had no idea what the hell it was. About the time I was going to walk up to the front door, there was a huge CRACK, very loud, and then the very big picture window blew out like it had been shot out and the lights came on inside. By the time some outfit got out and jacked everything back up, the house was severely damaged and his insurance company paid out over 50K to fix the house.

When the wall caved in, the front of the house, a two story brick house built about 35 years ago, was being held up by the windowframe and some studs on one side of the living room. I heard the studs bending from the weight, and then the window blew and the front of the house dropped about 18" instantly. It was over 2 ft down by the time all the trucks and dozers showed up.

All the windows on the front, both upstairs and downstairs were trashed, they had to redo the frame and then relay all the bricks, etc. It was an all summer job.

I can't figure out how both of them slept through the noises it made. I could hear it as soon as I opened my garage door, about 7 houses away. It was LOUD.

I had my limit switch stick on my 10.5 ft Satellite dish one winter and the screw jack kept running and it stretched out a 5/8" Grade 5 bolt about an inch and a half before it "popped" with what sounded like a rifle shot. My nieghbors were asleep, and it woke them right up. I told them later that day what happened, my dish was all bent to hell, and I found the end of the bolt about a week later, in my front yard about 100' away from the dish. That was just one bolt popping. Imagine what those big rivets on a beam sound when they finally let go..

 

[cKGunslinger]

Originally posted by: morkinva

'Debris' fell in those buildings and structurally undermined them? So you are saying that the building fell by itself? Even so, address the Silverstein comment. Address the Silverstein comment. Address the Silverstein comment.

You linked a video. What did he say?

 

[DBL]

Originally posted by: morkinva
You cannot come up with an answer for the collapse of wtc7:

1) There are fires in wtc7 for no apparent reason

I thought this was common knowledge but I guess not...

"Fire Department officials warned the city and the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey in 1998 and 1999 that a giant diesel fuel tank for the mayor's $13 million command bunker in 7 World Trade Center, a 47-story high-rise that burned and collapsed on Sept. 11, posed a hazard and was not consistent with city fire codes. The 6,000-gallon tank was positioned about 15 feet above the ground floor and near several lobby elevators and was meant to fuel generators that would supply electricity to the 23rd-floor bunker in the event of a power failure. Although the city made some design changes to address the concerns - moving a fuel pipe that would have run from the tank up an elevator shaft, for example - it left the tank in place. But the Fire Department repeatedly warned that a tank in that position could spread fumes throughout the building if it leaked, or, if it caught fire, could produce what one Fire Department memorandum called "disaster.""

 

[irwincur]

WT7 also sat on what was called the 'bath tub' a large, deep (120 ft or so) enclosure that was keeping the water out of the garage of the WTC complex. The collapse of the two towers did damage the underground garage and subway portions, some of which supported the surrounding buildings. If anything, I suspect that the mixture of damage from the fall, unattended fires (the sprinkler system in WT7 probably was not working), and the destruction of its underground support were likely culprits.

But like I said earlier, I am not an engineer. However, unlike conspiracy freaks - I do have what is called common sense.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: morkinva
tasteslikechicken, you have completely avoided the question of their ability (as indicated by Silverstein) to bring down a building on command which requires explosives that were previously planted.

First of all, nobody can provide any actual proof that explosives were previously planted. Someone in WTC7 would have had to have known that demo charges were being planted at some point because it's a long, drawn out process that requires some heavy duty modification to a building. It wasn't done during the construction process because 1) the building plans show no demolition charges and 2) nearly the entire process of the building of the WTC towers and buildings was photodoc'd and there's no indication of such charges being present.

Second of all, when he said "pull it" he's referring to the firefighting effort on the building. It was a futile effort, they realized that, the fire department called Silverstein and advised him it was futile, and he advised them to "pull it" ("it" being the fire fighting effort).

Now please stop looking for grand conspiracies behind every stone because some idiot hears the words "pull it" and "pull" and decides to make an out of context ASSumption to align with his personal loonie meanderings that the government is behind everything bad so they must be behind 9/11 too..