Fire Engineering magazine blasted FEMA's investigation of the WTC collapse

Votingisanillusion

Senior member
Nov 6, 2004
626
0
0
I wanted to post these in the other thread, closed who knows why.
The first article explains that at best FEMA's investigation amounted to an historical show of incompentence, or worse: to a cover-up.
The second article reveals that Ben Chertoff, the chief editor of the Popular Mechanics 9/11 hit piece, is the cousin of Michael Chertoff, the new Homeland Security Czar. Cover-up, again.
I am in the middle of watching Alex Jones' latest documentary, shot in New-York, mainly about 9/11. It is amazing. According to a zogby poll, half of new-yorkers believe that the Bush administration had foreknowledge of 9/11; this documentary will let you understand why. From firefighters inside the towers telling (audio proof) on 9/11 that the fires were under control, that they heard explosions around the 23st floor, to Cheney who had taken control of NORAD on 9/11. It can be downloaded for free with the the authorization of the author, for example on emule:
ed2k://|file|Alex Jones - Martial Law 911 - Rise of the Police State +Extras (2005).avi|738561234|08014AB51FF7A4587FCBA6AEFD1122FB|/


http://www.americanfreepress.net/Conspi...obe/fire_engineers_call_wtc_probe.html

Exclusive to American Free Press

By Christopher Bollyn


Fire Engineering magazine, the 125-year old journal of record among America?s fire engineers and firefighters, recently blasted the investigation being conducted by the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) of the collapsed World Trade Center as a ?a half-baked farce.?

Fire Engineering?s editor, William Manning, issued a ?call to action? to America?s firefighters and fire engineers in the January issue asking them to contact their representatives in Congress and officials in Washington to demand a blue ribbon panel to thoroughly investigate the collapse of the World Trade Center structures.

Fire Engineering frequently publishes technical studies of major fires and is read in more than 50,000 fire departments and schools of fire engineering across the nation.

Manning challenged the theory that the towers collapsed as a result of the crashed airliners and the subsequent fuel fires, saying, ?Respected members of the fire protection engineering community are beginning to raise red flags, and a resonating theory has emerged: The structural damage from the planes and the explosive ignition of jet fuel in themselves were not enough to bring down the towers.?

No evidence has been produced to support the theory that the burning jet fuel and secondary fires ?attacking the questionably fireproofed lightweight trusses and load-bearing columns directly caused the collapses,? Manning wrote, adding that the collapses occurred ?in an alarmingly short time.?

Because no ?real evidence? has been produced, the theory that the twin towers collapsed due to fire ?could remain just unexplored theory,? Manning said.

Manning visited the site shortly after the collapse and his photographs appeared in the October issue of Fire Engineering. None of the photos show the load-bearing central steel support columns standing or fallen, which raises the question, what caused these columns to disintegrate?

An eyewitness to the collapse told AFP that as he stood two blocks from the World Trade Center he had seen ?a number of brief light sources being emitted from inside the building between floors 10 and 15.? He saw about six of these brief flashes, accompanied by a ?crackling sound? immediately before the tower collapsed.

DESTRUCTION OF EVIDENCE

The steel from the site must be preserved to allow investigators to determine what caused the collapse, Manning said. ?The destruction and removal of evidence must stop immediately.?

?For more than three months, structural steel from the World Trade Center has been and continues to be cut up and sold for scrap. Crucial evidence that could answer many questions about high-rise building design practices and performance under fire conditions is on the slow boat to China,? Manning said, ?perhaps never to be seen again in America until you buy your next car.?

?Such destruction of evidence,? Manning wrote, ?shows the astounding ignorance of government officials to the value of a thorough, scientific investigation of the largest fire-induced collapse in world history.?

Nowhere in the national standard for fire investigation does one find an exemption allowing the destruction of evidence for buildings over 10 stories tall, Manning said. ?Clearly, there are burning questions that need answers. Based on the incident?s magnitude alone, a full-throttle, fully-resourced, forensic investigation is imperative. The lessons about the buildings? design and behavior in this extraordinary event must be learned and applied in the real world.

?Did they throw away the locked doors from the Triangle Shirtwaist fire? Did they throw away the gas can used at the Happyland Social Club fire? Did they cast aside the pressure-regulating valves at the Meridian Plaza fire? Of course not. But essentially, that?s what they?re doing at the World Trade Center.?

The collapse of the World Trade Center was the first total collapse of a high-rise during a fire in United States history and the largest structural collapse in recorded history. The collapse resulted in the deaths of some 3,000 people, the second largest loss of life on American soil and the largest loss of firefighters ever at one incident, yet congressional hearings or a ?blue ribbon? commission looking into the events of Sept. 11 have not been called for, and may never be.

WTC ?INVESTIGATION??

In a separate editorial, ?WTC Investigation? A Call to Action,? by the magazine?s technical editor, Prof. Glenn Corbett of John Jay University in New York City, and two other expert fire engineers who specialize in high-rise buildings, the FEMA-led investigation was called ?uncoordinated? and ?superficial.?

?The World Trade Center disaster demands the most comprehensive, detailed investigation possible,? the writers said. ?No event in our entire fire service history has ever come close to the magnitude of this incident.?

Given the magnitude of the disaster ?you would think we would have the largest fire investigation in world history,? the editorial says. ?You would be wrong. Instead, we have a series of unconnected and uncoordinated superficial inquiries. No comprehensive ?Presidential Blue Ribbon Commission.? No top-notch National Transportation Safety Board-like response. Ironically, we will probably gain more detailed information about the destruction of the planes than we will about the destruction of the towers. We are literally treating the steel removed from the site like garbage, not like crucial fire scene evidence.?

RECYCLING THE EVIDENCE

On Christmas Day, The New York Times reported that structural engineers have demanded a completely new investigation because the decision to quickly recycle the tower?s steel columns, beams and trusses had resulted in the wholesale destruction of critical evidence.

Dr. Frederick W. Mowrer, an associate professor in the fire protection engineering department at the University of Maryland, said the decision had compromised any investigation of the collapses.

?I find the speed with which potentially important evidence has been removed and recycled to be appalling,? Mowrer said.

Officials in the New York mayor?s office refused to reply to written and oral requests from The New York Times over a three-day period about who actually made the decision to recycle the steel, seriously handicapping the investigation.

The engineers said that the ?serious mistake? to recycle the structural steel deprived investigators of the most important direct physical evidence required when trying to piece together what caused the towers to collapse. In the United States there are thousands of similar lightweight, center-core construction high-rise buildings with light-density, sprayed-on fireproofing, according to Manning.

?We have to learn from incidents through investigation to determine what types of codes should be in place and what are the best practices for high-rise construction,? Manning told the Daily News. ?The World Trade Center is not the only lightweight, core construction high-rise in the U.S. It?s a typical method of construction.?

ACCOUNTABILITY VACUUM

The builders and owners of the World Trade Center property, the Port Authority of New York-New Jersey, are a government agency that is reported to operate ?in an accountability vacuum beyond the reach of local fire and building codes.?

The Port Authority has denied charges that the buildings of the World Trade Center lacked fire protection or that construction components were substandard, but has refused to cooperate with requests for documentation supporting its contentions.

A group of engineers from the American Society of Civil Engineers, commissioned by the Federal Emergency Management Agency, is reported to be studying ?some aspects of the collapse,? but not all, according to Manning and others. The engineers? investigation, they say, has not looked into all aspects of the disaster and has had limited access to documents and other evidence.

?Except for the marginal benefit obtained from a three-day, visual walk-through of evidence sites conducted by ASCE investigation committee members?described by one close source as a ?tourist trip??no one?s checking the evidence for anything,? Manning said. ?As things now stand and if they continue in such fashion, the investigation into the World Trade Center fire and collapse will amount to paper- and computer-generated hypotheticals.?

Engineers have also complained that they have been shackled with bureaucratic restrictions that prevented them from examining the disaster site, interviewing witnesses and requesting crucial information like recorded distress calls to the police and fire departments.

?This is almost the dream team of engineers in the country working on this, and our hands are tied,? one engineer who asked not to be identified told the Times. Members of the team of engineers have been threatened with dismissal for speaking to the press.

?FEMA is controlling everything,? the anonymous engineer complained.

?Comprehensive disaster investigations mean increased safety,? Manning said. ?They mean positive change. NASA knows it. The NTSB knows it. Does FEMA know it?

?No. Fire Engineering has good reason to believe that the ?official investigation? blessed by FEMA and run by the American Society of Civil Engineers is a half-baked farce that may already have been commandeered by political forces whose primary interests, to put it mildly, lie far afield of full disclosure,? he wrote.

MAYOR?S FUEL BOMB?

In an article about the mysterious explosion and collapse of the 47-story Salomon Brothers Building, also known as 7 World Trade Center, which burned and collapsed at 5:20 p.m. on Sept. 11, The New York Times reported on Dec. 20 that the New York City Fire Department had repeatedly warned city officials ?that a giant diesel fuel tank for the mayor?s $13 million command bunker in 7 World Trade Center? could result in a ?disaster? if it caught fire.

Fire Department officials had warned the city and the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey in 1998 and 1999 that the 6,000-gallon diesel tank posed a serious hazard and was a violation of city fire codes. A leak in the tank would result in toxic and flammable fumes being spread throughout the building. Despite the obvious dangers, warnings and fire code violations, the city made only minor changes to address the concerns and the tank remained in place.

The tank was meant to fuel generators that would supply electricity to the mayor?s 23rd-floor bunker in the event of a power failure and was positioned 15 feet above the ground floor near several lobby elevators.



========================================================


http://www.prisonplanet.tv/audio/090305alexresponds.htm
Audio: http://www.prisonplanet.tv/audio/090305alexresponds.mp3


Transcript

I'm going to try to calmly and succinctly go over Benjamin Chertoff.... In late November of 2004 my wife handed me a stack of media I had to contact and amongst it was Popular Mechanics doing a piece on popular 9-11 'theories'. So I call and I talk to Benjamin Chertoff; we've now learned is a close family member of the Homeland Security Director, according to press reports. And I've talked to him and I've talked to others and I thought it was a fake interview. I've never thought an interview wasn't real. Of the hundreds of newspaper, TV interviews, the thousands of radio interviews I've done, I've never thought that a reporter was fake. People from school newspapers sound more credible and serious. USA Today, Washington Post, New York Times, these are normally focused serious people. Even if they're adversaries. I thought that the interview wasn't real, it was so shotty. I called Popular Mechanics ... one of the chief editors called back and said "Yes it's indeed real." They swore to me this is not a hit piece, we're just looking at the popular theories.

Then the headline on the magazine "9-11 Lies: Debunking" and it's "conclusive" they say. This is what they engaged in. I talked to Chertoff and others, on every point they'd raise to me I'd email them mainstream news articles, documents, Larry Silverstein saying they blew up WTC 7 (http://www.prisonplanet.com/011904wtc7.html). Suddenly they wouldn't want to talk about that, they'd move on to something else. A lot of stuff they were going to put in there got dropped because I told their chief editor, "Look I can tell this is a hit piece and you're trying to liable me, you better watch yourself." A whole bunch of stuff they were gonna do wasn't in there about me 'cause I could see what they were doing. ...It sure enough was [a hit piece]. There are just so many facets to it.

Some of the things they debunked I agree are not provable. Number 1 they build a straw man (noun: a weak or sham argument set up to be easily refuted). Of the 16 points, 4 or 5 of them are questionable. ...You could find somebody on the internet saying space aliens carried out 9-11 or the planes were holograms. I don't believe that. You can find people that think space aliens killed Kennedy, no the government did. But the media says okay ... "If you think somebody else killed Kennedy, you think it was space aliens. That's the straw man argument. They did that. But a bunch of the points like Building 7, no mention of Silverstein, no mention of the firefighters telling reporters to get back we're gonna pull it, that's Associated Press. There's none of that.

But one of the really sterling examples from the piece, that I pray none of you will buy. It's online, you can read it there. Please don't spend your money; and if you have a subscription to them, don't be lazy, call and cancel. They deserve to have people boycott them. ...When I try to look at the spectrum of propaganda it's so hard to know where to start. One of the biggest smoking guns of disinfo in the article is No stand-down order ... No fighter jets were scrambled from any of the 28 Air Force bases within close range of the four hijacked flights. 'On September 11th Andrews had two squadrons of fighter jets with the job of protecting the skies over Washington D.C.,' says the Web site emperors-clothes.com. 'They failed to do their job.' 'There is only one explanation for this,' writes Mark R. Elsis of StandDown.net. 'Our Air Force was ordered to Stand Down on 9-11.'

'Fact,' - now they're going to tell you fact. It's like Rumsfeld telling you fact on Face The Nation, 'I never said there were weapons of mass destruction, it's an urban legend.' Well just 'cause you say that's a fact Rumsfeld we all know it's a lie; 'cause we have you on video. - 'On 9-11 there were only 14 fighter jets on alert in the continuous 48 states.' Yeah 'cause they were all part of the giant drill. Which is what Associated Press reported. 'No computer network or alarm automatically alerted the North American Air Defense Command (NORAD) of the missing planes.' That's not true. 'They [civilian Air Traffic Control, or ATC] had to pick up the phone and literally dial us,' says Maj. Douglas Martin, public affairs officer for NORAD. Boston Center, one of 22 Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) regional ATC facilities, called NORAD's Northeast Air Defense Sector (NEADS) three times. ...They go on to say that there's a claim that planes have been scrambled hundreds of times before 9-11. They say 'No that's not true, in the decade before 9-11 it only happened one time. One time.' ...The very Maj. they quote, Maj. Douglas Martin, he told the Associated Press that they'd over 60 times, scrambled them and had them intercepted in the year before September 11th. ...I've talked to pilots who've had radio problems and F-16's fly up next to them. Everybody knows this, not just Maj. Douglas Martin the Public Affairs Officer. ...We have the public record, everybody knows this, this is public knowledge.

The question is, why do we put up with this? ...This is how they supposedly debunk everything. Then he gets up on the radio Saturday night, Sunday morning, and tells Tens of Millions of people that, 'Well Mr. Jones can call and deffend himself,' and an hour later 'Well I guess he isn't gonna call in and defend himself because he can't, he can't refute these facts.' Just because you say 'fact fact fact' doesn't mean it's a fact. While I was being interviewed and other members of the Popular Propoganda staff I kept saying aren't you gonna talk about public officials being warned not to fly. Mayor Willie Brown of San Francisco, the Joint Chiefs of Staff, MSNBC, Salman Rushdie, Times of London, CBS News reporting on Ashcroft. Are you gonna talk about Bush on Cipro, White House Press Secretary Harry Fleischer admitted it. The whole cabinet on Cipro four weeks before it showed up in Boca Raton, Florida. Are you gonna talk about CIA insider trading? 'No no no.' Will you talk about Larry Silverstein saying that he pulled the buildings? I've sent you the video clip, have you watched it? 'No I haven't had time.' Will you call Larry Silverstein and ask him, he says he blew it up. 'Um, no I don't think so ...' or 'maybe.' Then I talked to his editor, I said I'm sending this to you. Will you call Larry Silverstein? 'Oh we're very interested in that. And this isn't a hit piece, no it's not, we promise. We just want to see what you guys think.'

The bottom line is this, people aren't listening to these people anymore. They're not listening. They're not believing it. The population knows by and large - they may not know all the details, but they know information is being twisted, it's being spun, it's being fabricated, it's being made up, it's being white washed. They know that. Your credibility is at an all time low. It's just that simple. Your credibility is gone. It's now part of the record that the government has been caught Thousands and Thousands of times lying to us. So is it any surprise now, that we have ariticles like this from News Max: Web News Grows, Papers Spiral Down ? (http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/3/6/195811.shtml) I watched some TV this weekend ... every news show I saw was attacking the 'new media.' Talking about how uncredible it is and how it's taking over. ...They even tried to use the White House's own male prostitute madam as 'See how uncredible the alternative media is?' Well that's not the alternative media, that's one of your boy toys Lord Bush. That's one of the Globalist little minions. One of his influence peddler's infiltrating the alternate press through a neo con Web site openly funded by the White House. They have the nerve on two seperate shows I saw. The Daily Show was one and CNN was another - to go on the air and imply because of the Gannon story that 'Oh see, that's how uncredible the alternative press is.' John Stewart used the word man whore. 'Alternative press has got man whores running it.' So you've got your fake reporters out there and then it's our fault. See, no no, you're trying to infiltrate the alternative media. Bush has paid Tens of Millions for fake blogs, Seventy-Six Million for fake news casts just for Medicaid. Armstrong Williams ... there's dozens and dozens.... I hear it locally on the radio, people. I hear locally Federally funded Austin Air Force ads, that's a group wanting to get admissions testing on cars and I've called up before and they go 'Yeah it is a paid spot, how did you know that?' Packaged into the local newscast. It's everywhere. Look, I had these people offer me a Million bucks, in the first year, Six years ago, to go become a neo con. 'You could be the next Rush Limbaugh. Just stop talking about black helicopters and the New World Order. Here's the contract, we're gonna start you out on Fifteen juggernaut marquee stations and if you play ball after the first year,' I was gonna get a million, 'you'll get triple that.' And you know what I told them, I said, 'You can take your offer and you know what you can do with it!'

So we have this atmosphere now in the Country where we're learning how many of the press are paid off and controlled. But there's other forms of control, the globalist editors and controllers can just look at other writings and different reporters out there and pick people that instinctively have the establishment agenda and mind-set. That's another form of control. Then on top of that you have blood. You have these societies. You have this elite and its nepotism where they put their own minions into power. And it is being reported that Chertoff's cousin penned Popular Mechanics' 9-11 hit piece. 'Who is Benjamin Chertoff, the senior researcher at Popular Mechanics who is behind the article? American Free Press har learned that he is none other than a cousin of Michael Chertoff, the new Secretary of the Department of Homeland Security. This means that Hearst paid Benjamin Chertoff to write an article supporting the seriously flawed explanation that is based on a practically non-existent investigation of the terror event that directly led to the creation of the massive national security department his cousin now heads. This is exactly the kind of journalism one would expect to find in a dictatorship like that of Saddam Hussein's Iraq. Because the manager of public relations for Popular Mechanics didn't respond to repeated calls from American Free Press, I called Benjamin Chertoff, the magazine's senior researcher, directly. Chertoff said he was the senior researcher of the piece. When asked if he was related to Michael Chertoff, he said I don't know. Clearly uncomfortable about discussing the matter further, he told me that all questions about the article should be put to the publicist - the one who never answers the phone. Benjamin's mother in Pelham, New York, however, was more willing to talk. Asked if Benjamin was related to the new Secretary of Homeland Security, Judy said, Yes, of course, he is a cousin.'

This guy has the classic M.O. 24 years old, 23 when he was first in Iraq. Reporting for the New World Order. Then he comes back and lands the big job at Popular Mechanics. Regardless folks, if he is Chertoff's blood, ... this is clear conflict of interest.
 

cwjerome

Diamond Member
Sep 30, 2004
4,346
26
81
Originally posted by: cKGunslinger
Did I miss the memo about today being tinfoil-hat day again?


Evidently, we need a permanent steel-plated skull in P&N nowadays...
 

ntdz

Diamond Member
Aug 5, 2004
6,989
0
0
If all this conspiracy theory bs is true, why is it relegated to no name press instead of the mainstream press? Oh yeah, because there is no proof of this, and if the mainstream press reported it, they'd lose all credibility, just like you did.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,095
513
126
I saw the planes hit the towers.
Surprised the damn things didnt fall over on impact.
These wild conspiracy theories are comical.
 

Votingisanillusion

Senior member
Nov 6, 2004
626
0
0
Anyone here or in the corporate media (that keep on covering-up JFK's assassination by the CIA) is more competent than Fire Engineering magazine?
The corporate media were complicit of Bush's lies about Iraq, who takes them seriously? The truth can only come from independant media, not from the media of the billionaires that care only about two things: money, and how to keep people stupid and obedient to the ruthless and megalomaniac power elite.
 

cKGunslinger

Lifer
Nov 29, 1999
16,408
57
91
Originally posted by: Votingisanillusion
Anyone here or in the corporate media (that keep on covering-up JFK's assassination by the CIA) is more competent than Fire Engineering magazine?
The corporate media were complicit of Bush's lies about Iraq, who takes them seriously? The truth can only come from independant media, not from the media of the billionaires that care only about two things: money, and how to keep people stupid and obedient to the ruthless and megalomaniac power elite.

w00t! Fight the power! Down with the man! Preach the truth, brother!


(Was that more in line with what you wanted to hear?)
 

rahvin

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
8,475
1
0
The only fire engineering magazine I can find is from SFPE:

http://www.sfpe.org/sfpe30/about.htm

The Society of Fire Protection Engineers was established in 1950 and incorporated as in independent organization in 1971.

Your article says:

Fire Engineering magazine, the 125-year old journal of record among America?s fire engineers and firefighters, recently blasted the investigation being conducted by the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) of the collapsed World Trade Center as a ?a half-baked farce.?

Now there are a couple of scenarios here, either someone can't do math worth a damn, or there are two magazines with the exact same title, or your article is full of sh!t.

Based on this link:

http://www.pentoncmg.com/sfpe/index.html

I would say your article is full of sh!t as are you.

[edit] And here is the article on the WTC from Fire engineering magazine:

http://www.pentoncmg.com/sfpe/articles/milkefpe%20spring%2003.pdf

And here is the conclusion:

In both WTC 1 and 2, the collapse of
the buildings is attributed to the combined
effects of the damage caused by
the aircraft and the weakening of the
steel as a result of the fire. The damage
caused by the aircraft included:

So in conclusion, who do I believe, the American Society of Engineers (ASCE) report prepared for FEMA and the conclusions of the Society of Fire Prevention Engineers report with an identical conclusion or a website called the american free press. Hmmm, lets see....
 

herkulease

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2001
3,923
0
0
Originally posted by: rahvin
The only fire engineering magazine I can find is from SFPE:

http://www.sfpe.org/sfpe30/about.htm

The Society of Fire Protection Engineers was established in 1950 and incorporated as in independent organization in 1971.

Your article says:

Fire Engineering magazine, the 125-year old journal of record among America?s fire engineers and firefighters, recently blasted the investigation being conducted by the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) of the collapsed World Trade Center as a ?a half-baked farce.?

Now there are a couple of scenarios here, either someone can't do math worth a damn, or there are two magazines with the exact same title, or your article is full of sh!t.

Based on this link:

http://www.pentoncmg.com/sfpe/index.html

I would say your article is full of sh!t as are you.

[edit] And here is the article on the WTC from Fire engineering magazine:

http://www.pentoncmg.com/sfpe/articles/milkefpe%20spring%2003.pdf

And here is the conclusion:

In both WTC 1 and 2, the collapse of
the buildings is attributed to the combined
effects of the damage caused by
the aircraft and the weakening of the
steel as a result of the fire. The damage
caused by the aircraft included:

I'd hold off on that. I googled "fire engineering magazine" and got this
http://fe.pennnet.com/

the editor matches with what they said in the article and about us has 122 years.

however I can find this article in the that magazine that the OPs post is refering too. but I"m too lazy to register to check.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
They better pay some more hush money like they did with the families to this journal.
 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
6
81
Originally posted by: cKGunslinger

w00t! Fight the power! Down with the man! Preach the truth, brother!


(Was that more in line with what you wanted to hear?)



I hear you celebrated your 15th birthday....congrats..

I am sure you are looking forward to reciveing your Bush Youth badge.
 

rahvin

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
8,475
1
0
Originally posted by: herkulease
I'd hold off on that. I googled "fire engineering magazine" and got this
http://fe.pennnet.com/

the editor matches with what they said in the article and about us has 122 years.

however I can find this article in the that magazine that the OPs post is refering too. but I"m too lazy to register to check.

Just assuming you are right and that's the magazine refered to (I dont' really care). It appears to be a magazine for firefighters. Personally I'm gonna stick with the conclusions of the ASCE and SFPE. But what do all those REAL engineers know, right?
 

Votingisanillusion

Senior member
Nov 6, 2004
626
0
0
Fire Engineering in google. First result: http://fe.pennnet.com/
http://fe.pennnet.com/about/about.cfm
About The Site
For over 122 years, Fire Engineering magazine has provided training, education, and management information for fire and emergency services personnel worldwide. Articles are written by experts in the fire service and focus on lessons-learned.

Feature articles cover real-life situations such as collapse void search, confined space rescue, high-angle rescue, and extrication. Regular magazine departments focus on education and management issues.

The online version of Fire Engineering provides daily international business and industry-related news, current issue articles, and access to years of searchable editorial archives. Check the calendar of events for the next FDIC, industry-related conference, or refer to the Product Guide for vendor, product and service information.

Through this online site, you can link to the many other PennWell web sites covering industries ranging from water and waste, oil and gas, and power generation, to semiconductors and lasers.

WaterWorld
Oil and Gas Journal
Power Engineering
PennWell



Second result from google (same site), this article: http://fe.pennnet.com/Articles/Article_...ay&PUBLICATION_ID=25&ARTICLE_ID=131225

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"Burning Questions...Need Answers": FE's Bill Manning Calls for Comprehensive Investigation of WTC Collapse

Fair Lawn, NJ, January 4, 2002-Bill Manning, Fire Engineering's editor in chief, is summoning members of the fire service to "A Call to Action." In his January 2002 Editor's Opinion, "$elling Out the Investigation" (below), he warns that unless there is a full-blown investigation by an independent panel established solely for that purpose, "the World Trade Center fire and collapse will amount to paper- and computer-generated hypotheticals." Manning explained: "Clearly, there are burning questions that need answers .... The lessons about the buildings' design and behavior in this extraordinary event must be learned and applied in the real world."

In an interview with the New York Daily News today, Manning reiterated his call for a "full-throttle, fully resourced" investigation into the collapse of the World Trade Center. He is asking members of the fire service to read "WTC 'Investigation'? A Call to Action" http://fe.pennnet.com/Articles/Article_...ay&PUBLICATION_ID=25&ARTICLE_ID=130026 in the January 2002 issue of Fire Engineering and at fireengineering.com and to contact their representatives in Congress and officials in Washington to ask that a blue ribbon panel be convened to thoroughly investigate the WTC collapse.

Among those also calling for the investigation are Sally Regenhard, the mother of Christian Regenhard, the Fire Department of New York (FDNY) probationary firefighter killed in the World Trade Center (WTC) attack, and founder of the Campaign for Skyscraper Safety; Give Your Voice, a civilian relatives' group headed by Michael Cartier, who lost his brother in the collapse; prominent structural engineers and fire-safety experts, and New York State Senators Charles Schumer and Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton.


$elling Out the Investigation
By Bill Manning

Did they throw away the locked doors from the Triangle Shirtwaist Fire? Did they throw away the gas can used at the Happyland Social Club Fire? Did they cast aside the pressure-regulating valves at the Meridian Plaza Fire? Of course not. But essentially, that's what they're doing at the World Trade Center.

For more than three months, structural steel from the World Trade Center has been and continues to be cut up and sold for scrap. Crucial evidence that could answer many questions about high-rise building design practices and performance under fire conditions is on the slow boat to China, perhaps never to be seen again in America until you buy your next car.

Such destruction of evidence shows the astounding ignorance of government officials to the value of a thorough, scientific investigation of the largest fire-induced collapse in world history. I have combed through our national standard for fire investigation, NFPA 921, but nowhere in it does one find an exemption allowing the destruction of evidence for buildings over 10 stories tall.

Hoping beyond hope, I have called experts to ask if the towers were the only high-rise buildings in America of lightweight, center-core construction. No such luck. I made other calls asking if these were the only buildings in America with light-density, sprayed-on fireproofing. Again, no luck-they were two of thousands that fit the description.

Comprehensive disaster investigations mean increased safety. They mean positive change. NASA knows it. The NTSB knows it. Does FEMA know it?

No. Fire Engineering has good reason to believe that the "official investigation" blessed by FEMA and run by the American Society of Civil Engineers is a half-baked farce that may already have been commandeered by political forces whose primary interests, to put it mildly, lie far afield of full disclosure. Except for the marginal benefit obtained from a three-day, visual walk-through of evidence sites conducted by ASCE investigation committee members- described by one close source as a "tourist trip"-no one's checking the evidence for anything.

Maybe we should live and work in planes. That way, if disaster strikes, we will at least be sure that a thorough investigation will help find ways to increase safety for our survivors.

As things now stand and if they continue in such fashion, the investigation into the World Trade Center fire and collapse will amount to paper- and computer-generated hypotheticals.

However, respected members of the fire protection engineering community are beginning to raise red flags, and a resonating theory has emerged: The structural damage from the planes and the explosive ignition of jet fuel in themselves were not enough to bring down the towers. Rather, theory has it, the subsequent contents fires attacking the questionably fireproofed lightweight trusses and load-bearing columns directly caused the collapses in an alarmingly short time. Of course, in light of there being no real evidence thus far produced, this could remain just unexplored theory.

The frequency of published and unpublished reports raising questions about the steel fireproofing and other fire protection elements in the buildings, as well as their design and construction, is on the rise. The builders and owners of the World Trade Center property, the Port Authority of New York-New Jersey, a governmental agency that operates in an accountability vacuum beyond the reach of local fire and building codes, has denied charges that the buildings' fire protection or construction components were substandard but has refused to cooperate with requests for documentation supporting its contentions.

Some citizens are taking to the streets to protest the investigation sellout. Sally Regenhard, for one, wants to know why and how the building fell as it did upon her unfortunate son Christian, an FDNY probationary firefighter. And so do we.

Clearly, there are burning questions that need answers. Based on the incident's magnitude alone, a full-throttle, fully resourced, forensic investigation is imperative. More important, from a moral standpoint, for the safety of present and future generations who live and work in tall buildings-and for firefighters, always first in and last out-the lessons about the buildings' design and behavior in this extraordinary event must be learned and applied in the real world.

To treat the September 11 incident any differently would be the height of stupidity and ignorance.

The destruction and removal of evidence must stop immediately.

The federal government must scrap the current setup and commission a fully resourced blue ribbon panel to conduct a clean and thorough investigation of the fire and collapse, leaving no stones unturned.

Firefighters, this is your call to action. Visit WTC "Investigation"?: A Call to Action, then contact your representatives in Congress and officials in Washington and help us correct this problem immediately.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Originally posted by: cKGunslinger
Originally posted by: Zebo
They better pay some more hush money like they did with the families to this journal.

What's that? Hush about what? Link?

dude you got google right? "hush money 9-11"

Many of the families think the government paid them off millions each to avoid lawsuits and avoid embarresing questions about 9-11.
 

rahvin

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
8,475
1
0
Like I said, I will rely on the expert analysis of PhD level structural and foresnsics engineers to determine failure of one of the largest buildings on the planet rather than some firefighters who had a couple courses in arson investigation (if you can even call them courses).
 

morkinva

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 1999
3,656
0
71
Votingisanillusion, the documentary you speak of is available for free from archive.org

Don't let these guys get you down, keep on being the patriot you are.


Responses to Popular Mechanics supposed debunking:

Text
Text
Text
Text

Debunking The [Propaganda Mechanics] Debunkers

by Eric Hufschmid

In regards to the issue of NORAD, I think the best response is the public hearing in which Norman Mineta mentions that Dick Cheney and others were watching an airplane fly towards the Pentagon.

They were not describing a mysterious airplane with its transponder off. Rather, they were observing it as if they knew where it was going and had no concern :

NATIONAL COMMISSION ON TERRORIST ATTACKS UPON THE UNITED STATES
Public Hearing, Friday, May 23, 2003

MR. MINETA: No, I was not. I was made aware of it during the time that the airplane coming into the Pentagon. There was a young man who had come in and said to the vice president, "The plane is 50 miles out. The plane is 30 miles out." And when it got down to, "The plane is 10 miles out," the young man also said to the vice president, "Do the orders still stand?" And the vice president turned and whipped his neck around and said, "Of course the orders still stand. Have you heard anything to the contrary?"
--------------------------


I have some specific responses below. The red color is from Popular Mechanics article.

A general remark about the Popular Mechanics article is:

There are a lot of silly remarks about 9-11 on the Internet, some from children, and some for amusement only, such as the possibility that Martians destroyed the World Trade Center towers. The article in Popular Mechanics has selected some of the sillier arguments. If they were serious researchers, they would address the issues that are brought up by Jimmy Walter and Eric Hufschmid. Jimmy Walter is offering this information at low cost to help educate the population.

--------------------------
THE WORLD TRADE CENTER
The collapse of both World Trade Center towers--and the smaller WTC 7 a few hours later--initially surprised even some experts. But subsequent studies have shown that the WTC's structural integrity was destroyed by intense fire as well as the severe damage inflicted by the planes.


Where are these "subsequent studies"? The FEMA report about the collapse of the buidings admits that they could not figure out why Building 7 collapsed. The FEMA report is proof that there are still unsolved mysteries. Therefore, Popular Mechanics is foolish to claim that the issue has been resolved.



--------------------------
"The jet fuel was the ignition source," Williams tells PM. "It burned for maybe 10 minutes, and [the towers] were still standing in 10 minutes. It was the rest of the stuff burning afterward that was responsible for the heat transfer that eventually brought them down."


What is this "rest of the stuff" that was burning? The floors were concrete, and the frame was steel, so what was burning? Carpeting, styrofoam cups, and office paper?

The fire in the South Tower was so small that it did not even spread from one side of the floor to the other. This issue is covered in detail in Chapter 4 of Painful Questions. Figure 4-1 on page 27 even shows a woman standing in the hole created by the airplane. How hot could these fires have been if people are walking around in the crash zone?



--------------------------
Like all office buildings, the WTC towers contained a huge volume of air. As they pancaked, all that air--along with the concrete and other debris pulverized by the force of the collapse--was ejected with enormous energy. "When you have a significant portion of a floor collapsing, it's going to shoot air and concrete dust out the window," NIST lead investigator Shyam Sunder tells PM. Those clouds of dust may create the impression of a controlled demolition, Sunder adds, "but it is the floor pancaking that leads to that perception."



If the floors slid down like pancakes, then there should be a large pile of flooring on the ground, with office furniture, people, and carpeting squashed between the floors. Figure 5-4 is a diagram to show this dilemma. There is nothing in the rubble that suggests any floor fell down in one piece. The reports from the firemen and the photos, such as Figure 5-19, prove that every floor disintegrated into tiny pieces, and the pieces were scattered hundreds of feet.

Besides, the diagram in Figure 5-22 shows even if a floor fell down like a pancake, it would create a corresponding vacuum above it. Therefore, the air that was pushed out the windows would be sucked up through the windows above. The air would be displaced, it would not be thrown hundreds of feet out the windows at extreme velocity. The explusion of dust and the lack of a corresponding suction implies that gas was being created, such as from explosions. The floors were not simply falling down.

Another serious problem with the Pancake Theory is that photos, such as Figure 5-10, show that the top of the South Tower broke off and tipped over, and fell onto Building 4. None of the government reports mention that the top of the South Tower broke off, nor do they explain why the entire base of the South Tower would disintegrate after the top fell off.

Are the editors of Popular Mechanics getting their information from the government? If so, it is no wonder that they are naïve about the 9-11 attack. They should get the packet of books and DVDs that Jimmy Walter offers before they write any more articles.

Since nobody has explained the mysteries of the South Tower, only a fool would say that this issue has been resolved.

--------------------------
FACT: Many conspiracy theorists point to FEMA's preliminary report, which said there was relatively light damage to WTC 7 prior to its collapse. With the benefit of more time and resources, NIST researchers now support the working hypothesis that WTC 7 was far more compromised by falling debris than the FEMA report indicated. "The most important thing we found was that there was, in fact, physical damage to the south face of building 7," NIST's Sunder tells PM. "On about a third of the face to the center and to the bottom--approximately 10 stories--about 25 percent of the depth of the building was scooped out." NIST also discovered previously undocumented damage to WTC 7's upper stories and its southwest corner.


Where are the photos that prove 25% of Building 7 was scooped out? The photos published in reports, and those available on me Internet do not show anything other than trivial damage, such as some broken windows.

Tom Franklin, a professional photographer for a New Jersey newspaper, traveled quickly to the World Trade Center to get photographs. According to his own report, he was standing in front of Building 7 at about 4 p.m.. He took lots of photos, but where are his photos of Building 7? Why would he ignore a skyscraper with 25% of its first 10 floors scooped out?



--------------------------
NIST investigators believe a combination of intense fire and severe structural damage contributed to the collapse, though assigning the exact proportion requires more research.

Where is evidence that there was an intense fire in Building 7? The photos taken in the afternoon do not show intense fires. Just because a few investigators believe something, that does not make it true. They need evidence to support their beliefs.


--------------------------
Second, a fifth-floor fire burned for up to 7 hours. "There was no firefighting in WTC 7," Sunder says. Investigators believe the fire was fed by tanks of diesel fuel that many tenants used to run emergency generators. Most tanks throughout the building were fairly small, but a generator on the fifth floor was connected to a large tank in the basement via a pressurized line. Says Sunder: "Our current working hypothesis is that this pressurized line was supplying fuel [to the fire] for a long period of time."


How can a fire burn for seven hours without spreading to other offices or other floors? Perhaps some diesel fuel was dripping from a supply pipe. Since the fire was small, and since the building had a steel frame with concrete floors, the fire could not travel to other offices. So how could such an insignificant fire bring down an entire skyscraper?

--------------------------
FACT: When American Airlines Flight 77 hit the Pentagon's exterior wall, Ring E, it created a hole approximately 75 ft. wide, according to the ASCE Pentagon Building Performance Report.


Where is a photograph that shows a hole 75 feet wide? All the photos available in reports and the Internet show only small holes. What are we to believe, one person's wild speculation, or the photographs?

--------------------------
Why wasn't the hole as wide as a 757's 124-ft.-10-in. wingspan? A crashing jet doesn't punch a cartoon-like outline of itself into a reinforced concrete building, says ASCE team member Mete Sozen, a professor of structural engineering at Purdue University. In this case, one wing hit the ground; the other was sheared off by the force of the impact with the Pentagon's load-bearing columns, explains Sozen, who specializes in the behavior of concrete buildings.

Nobody expects an airplane to create a cartoon-like outline of itself when it hits a building. However, if one wing hit the ground, where are the photographs of that wing? The photographs do not show anything resembling a wing.


--------------------------
What was left of the plane flowed into the structure in a state closer to a liquid than a solid mass.


Did the passengers and their luggage also turn into a liquid state and flow into the building? After they got into the building, did they solidify back into a solid state? What sort of physics is this? How were they able to identify human parts when metal melts at temperatures far beyond that necessary to reduce flesh to nothing buy carbon ash?

When airplanes crash in other locations, every piece of the plane can be found, even if it is in small pieces. Pieces of the passengers and their luggage can also be found. How is it that when a plane hits the Pentagon, everything suddenly changes and the plane is liquefied?

 

CanOWorms

Lifer
Jul 3, 2001
12,404
2
0
Of course it's a cover-up. You and me and others like us know the truth: top-secret undercover European spy agencies infiltrated the US on 9/11 to cause havoc and continue to dominate the world with their evil schemes today.
 

rahvin

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
8,475
1
0
Don't let these guys get you down, keep on being the patriot you are.

He's not a patriot, he's an idiot. There is no conspiracy, I saw ASCE's report and I read some of it and the conclusions are sound. They produced a finite element model of the failure for gods sake, but like another moron I argued with that had no background in engineering or even science you and the OP think you know more about engineering than professional engineers.
 

tcsenter

Lifer
Sep 7, 2001
18,345
256
126
Originally posted by: rahvin
Don't let these guys get you down, keep on being the patriot you are.

He's not a patriot, he's an idiot. There is no conspiracy, I saw ASCE's report and I read some of it and the conclusions are sound. They produced a finite element model of the failure for gods sake, but like another moron I argued with that had no background in engineering or even science you and the OP think you know more about engineering than professional engineers.
Seems to be a turf thing. This guy is upset that PhD civil, structural, and forensic engineers are receiving all the glory (and money) instead of the community college trained arson investigators and high school diploma'd firefighters that his organization represents.
 

Votingisanillusion

Senior member
Nov 6, 2004
626
0
0
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: Genx87

I saw the planes hit the towers.

Surprised the damn things didnt fall over on impact.


These wild conspiracy theories are comical.

Exactly, this BS has to stop. Planes flying into skyscrapers is no JFK.

Are you calling for censorship? Did you ask the mods to close the other thread? Are you CIA? Do you call for limits to the 1st amendment?
What do you think of the independant, prestigious Fire Engineering magazine outrage at the Bush-controlled investigation? This administration lied about Iraq; the results? 100,000 dead human beings! Who are you to order us to shut up because we think that this administration lied about 9/11 as well? Many victims families are outraged as well; they do not obey your order to shut up.
 

MadRat

Lifer
Oct 14, 1999
11,910
238
106
I find it interesting that common people mock intelligent questions.

These firefighters are simply asking hard questions. Rather than trying to help explain the answers the government has made it impossible to know the answers. If the government wanted to erase any doubt of a coverup then they'd of let the investigations take place. Its not like in each case the entire building wasn't cataloged piece by piece during its construction. There were identity numbers on virtually every steel girder and the reconstruction of key elements should have been simple enough if the markings survived.

Instead the steel is largely sent to China and the UK. Why not send the metal to US steel plants? Its not like the cost of transport isn't going to make the steel worthless to the destination recieving it. Anyone that has chartered a train can tell you its quite expensive. But its nowhere as expensive as hauling steel truck by truck to a bulk transport to China.

If something bad did happen inside the federal chain of command on 9/11 wouldn't you want to know? Let them look. If there is nothing to hide then there is no danger that they will find something credible.
 

laFiera

Senior member
May 12, 2001
862
0
0
alright, English is not my native language...what in the world is a tin foil hat---i guess i should be asking, what doest that expression mean? i see that in the posts a lot and i have no clue what it means... :)