Finland - a Capitalist Paradise

[Brainonska511]

I'm surprised this wasn't posted: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/07/opinion/sunday/finland-socialism-capitalism.html

The article provides a nice overview of what one particular Nordic country does for its people: striking the balance between capitalism and providing for their citizens. Turns out, it's actually in the interest of the capitalists to support social programs, since it gives them access to a healthy, educated workforce.

 

[mect]

Socialism is the only hope for capitalism to survive long term. WIthout it, wealth will continue to accumulate at the top, and eventually the people will get pissed enough to do something about it.

This is a great video that tells a similar story to that news article.

 

[WelshBloke]

Yeah. I never really understand when people try to frame a choice between either socialism or capitalism. They work really well together, they moderate each other well. Neither work particularly well without the other.

 

[woolfe9998]

I'm surprised this wasn't posted: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/07/opinion/sunday/finland-socialism-capitalism.html

The article provides a nice overview of what one particular Nordic country does for its people: striking the balance between capitalism and providing for their citizens. Turns out, it's actually in the interest of the capitalists to support social programs, since it gives them access to a healthy, educated workforce.

And it ensures that everyone has money to buy the capitalists' goods and services, instead of concentrating it in the hands of wealthy people who won't spend it. I've been saying this for ages. Social welfare promotes economic growth.

 

[sandorski]

American Capitalism does not want an Educated Society. It wants Mindless Consumers.

 

[dank69]

American Capitalism does not want an Educated Society. It wants Mindless Consumers.

Yeah but the consumers need money to spend.

 

[ShookKnight]

Nuh-uh!

Hur-dur MOOSELIMBS are being forced on hur-dur Nordic countries! Hur-dur socialisms is dur DEVULS!!!

::falls down on the ground::

Moose...limbs...

::mouth froth starts forming::

.... gur... gur... ACK!!!

Quick question; how many conservatives, who are self proclaimed know-it-alls on Nordic countries, are ACTUALLY citizens of said Nordic countries? Or, did they live there for a long time? Because I find it that most of the opinions that come from people who claim these Nordic countries are under siege, don't live there... or even know where they are located on the map.

 

[fskimospy]

Seems as good a time as any to re-post this.

We all know that conservatives claim to want capitalism and so you think they would want to support measures that help unlock the benefits of capitalism.

Here’s the thing though - they don’t give a shit about capitalism. They just want to maintain a preferential position for themselves. Just compare their reactions to the auto bailout and the farm bailout.

 

[thilanliyan]

But Venezuela...

 

[Vic]

Seems as good a time as any to re-post this.

We all know that conservatives claim to want capitalism and so you think they would want to support measures that help unlock the benefits of capitalism.

Here’s the thing though - they don’t give a shit about capitalism. They just want to maintain a preferential position for themselves. Just compare their reactions to the auto bailout and the farm bailout.

I can't possibly agree more with this. The greatest misconception in all of politics, and one shared by almost everyone it seems, is that the battle between liberalism and conservative is over socialism and capitalism. Nothing could be further from the truth. Liberalism is based on equal opportunity, that all persons should be considered equal in the eyes of the law. Conservatism is based on preservation of the existing social order, that people should be considered inherently unequal in the law based upon their accident of birth. Those are the differences in the 2 political ideologies, not capitalism and socialism, which are economic philosophies.
In fact, the origins of capitalism are from the Liberal Enlightenment, while the origins of socialism are from the Christian church.
Liberalism is only socialism to conservatives because conservatives believe that equal opportunity is socialism. Otherwise, conservatives love actual socialism provided that they alone are the beneficiaries of the socialist policies. Which is what fascism is.

But like I said, everyone seems to get this wrong. I remember talking to a liberal friend who was surprised that Indians were generally so conservative. I reminded him that Indians have lived for thousands of years under a strict caste system, literally the most conservative social regime there is.

 

[darkswordsman17]

Socialism is the only hope for capitalism to survive long term. WIthout it, wealth will continue to accumulate at the top, and eventually the people will get pissed enough to do something about it.

This is a great video that tells a similar story to that news article.

Agreed, but er, it kinda gets to a worse spot before then. That wealth accumulation tends to lead to dictatorships and oligarchies or some other form (forget what its called when there's a ruling class - the Bourgeoisie for Communists although they often had dictators as well, but I think France had it under their Monarchy where there was a rich group of people that kept the monarch in power in exchange the Monarch gave them wealth and power; there's other instances which would resemble the 1% in the US), which oppress the people, leading to them eventually getting so sick and tired they'd actually get off their asses and do something about it (you know because being an informed voter is so goddamn hard that its just easier to let things go to shit so eventually your probably grandkids decide enough is enough and maybe make some heads roll - of course you better hope your kids aren't wont to just get themselves power or else you'll end up with a string of getting sick and doing something about it).

 

[pmv]

Here’s the thing though - they don’t give a shit about capitalism. They just want to maintain a preferential position for themselves. Just compare their reactions to the auto bailout and the farm bailout.

Reminds me of (ages ago) reading the Daily Telegraph. On one page they had a stern condemnation of striking tube train drivers, calling for the tube to be fully privatised and the workers made to face the stern discipline of market competition. On the next they had an impassioned appeal for the state to offer much more financial aid to big landowner farmers as they faced the problem of the outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease.

 

[pmv]

I do wonder whether Finland's experience is generalisable. Or whether it's something you can only get away with in a relatively peripheral position in the global capitalist system. Not least there's the issue of immigration, and/or the free-movement of capital and jobs.

I suppose the thing is my viewpoint is the result of over my lifetime seeing capitalism, apparently by its internal logic, steadily dismantle and step-by-step remove any 'socialist' parts of the system.

I'm still not convinced the two can be persuaded to play nicely together, it seems as if capitalism has a natural immune system that will destroy anything it considers alien. But maybe that's an "Anglosphere" perspective.

 

[cytg111]

I do wonder whether Finland's experience is generalisable. Or whether it's something you can only get away with in a relatively peripheral position in the global capitalist system.

.. Its something you can get away with in the European Union .. we are ~400 million people.

 

[pmv]

.. Its something you can get away with in the European Union .. we are ~400 million people.

I'm just not convinced. I see the rise of the AFD in Germany and the FN in France, and the fascists in Greece, Hungary, Poland, Italy...
And Macron's neoliberal reforms and Germany's stagnation of workers' income...

I mean, maybe. I hope you are right, because I don't know what the alternative is, but I find it hard to fully believe. Again, though, that might just be a result of living through the evolution of UK and US politics since the advent of Neo-liberalism. It's a mite demoralising.

I mean, American leftists can see promising signs of the possible advent of socialised healthcare. Here all I see is the socialised healthcare we have had for a long time coming under relentless attack and being slowly chipped away at.

And the French left seems to have suffered a similar decline to that of the UK left, so last time they ended up having to choose between a centre-right neo-liberal, determined to institute Thatcher-like 'reforms' and a far-right neo-fascist.

Meanwhile Italy has put the hard-right into government, as has Hungary and Poland. So I don't see that things are going that well across large parts of the EU.

 

[cytg111]

I'm just not convinced. I see the rise of the AFD in Germany and the FN in France, and the fascists in Greece, Hungary, Poland, Italy...
And Macron's neoliberal reforms and Germany's stagnation of workers' income...

I mean, maybe. I hope you are right, because I don't know what the alternative is, but I find it hard to fully believe. Again, though, that might just be a result of living through the evolution of UK and US politics since the advent of Neo-liberalism. It's a mite demoralising.

I mean, American leftists can see promising signs of the possible advent of socialised healthcare. Here all I see is the socialised healthcare we have had for a long time coming under relentless attack and being slowly chipped away at.

And the French left seems to have suffered a similar decline to that of the UK left, so last time they ended up having to choose between a centre-right neo-liberal, determined to institute Thatcher-like 'reforms' and a far-right neo-fascist.

Meanwhile Italy has put the hard-right into government, as has Hungary and Poland. So I don't see that things are going that well across large parts of the EU.

Hey, dont get me wrong. It has to be now! Cause you are right, if its too late, then what is the alternative? The alternative is pretty selfevident, there is a whole geopolitical axis of autocracies that depend on being able to control the alternative fact narrative. Its been said many times, we are at war. But its like, if its not at the danger end of a rifle bore, people dont sway easily.
I hope to god this mandated to all member states by central command in Brussels.

 

[alcoholbob]

Yeah. I never really understand when people try to frame a choice between either socialism or capitalism. They work really well together, they moderate each other well. Neither work particularly well without the other.

Fear mongering.