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Finding More and More Software that Doesn't Work with the 10 Upgrade

Ketchup

Elite Member
Sep 1, 2002
14,494
220
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So I have been pretty happy with a fresh install of Windows 10. Now the upgrade, that's a whole other story. With my desktop, it came when I tried to install Sling. It wouldn't install no matter what compatibility mode I chose, yet on a VM running Windows 10, no problems at all.

Fast forward 6 months: have a friend who upgraded from 8.1 to 10 a couple months ago (and called me after the fact, isn't that how these things normally go?). Originally it was a security scare, but come to find out this Dell just does not like other AV. We have tried Kaspersky, ESET, Bitdefender, AVG, and Norton (all free trials) and all of them either stop other programs from working, or won't install at all. The latest, Norton, started off the best, won't allow the Photos app to work properly (starts for a second then stops), and even with the latest drivers from HP, will only print pictures in Black and white with the leftover Windows 7/8 Photo Viewer. One of the other programs started zooming on the desktop for no particular reason.

So what's the deal? Are any of you all running into issues with the "free" upgrade to 10?

I am about to ask my guy to bring his machine over, and just doing a clean 10 install, as this thing is driving us both nuts.
 

Elixer

Lifer
May 7, 2002
10,376
762
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For those kind of issues, a clean install is best, no use it trying to figure out what went wrong in the update process.
 
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PliotronX

Diamond Member
Oct 17, 1999
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The upgrade process is not perfect and never has been which is why a clean installation is the best route to go as Elixer mentioned. I have had to help revert machines and most of the time reverting to where it was before the upgrade resulted in a slower Windows OS than before the upgrade ever really happened and in those cases a clean installation was necessary (of the original OS, the users were pissed off at Windows 10). With that out of the way, I have not had too many issues with clean installations of 10, it's really the way it's meant to be installed. BitDefender has functioned flawlessly with it after getting official support.
 

[DHT]Osiris

Diamond Member
Dec 15, 2015
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Fast forward 6 months: have a friend who upgraded from 8.1 to 10 a couple months ago (and called me after the fact, isn't that how these things normally go?). Originally it was a security scare, but come to find out this Dell just does not like other AV. We have tried Kaspersky, ESET, Bitdefender, AVG, and Norton (all free trials) and all of them either stop other programs from working, or won't install at all. The latest, Norton, started off the best, won't allow the Photos app to work properly (starts for a second then stops), and even with the latest drivers from HP, will only print pictures in Black and white with the leftover Windows 7/8 Photo Viewer. One of the other programs started zooming on the desktop for no particular reason.
I'd blame crappy AV/AM programs for that kind of behavior over Windows. In addition, the 'apps' in Win10 can exhibit weird behaviors if someone's been digging around, trying to be a super-cool-guy by doing stuff like trying to uninstall Cortana.

At work we had a need to install a few versions of microsoft mappoint software, we were able to install 2013, 2010, 2009, 2006, 2004, 2002, and 2000 all on Win10. Dunno who gets credit for that, the Windows dev team or the mappoint dev team, but someone did their job right.
 

mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
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I've never heard of a brand of machine not liking a particular piece of AV software before (perhaps you didn't mean it like that).

Have you run removal tools for each AV?
 

[DHT]Osiris

Diamond Member
Dec 15, 2015
9,361
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I've never heard of a brand of machine not liking a particular piece of AV software before (perhaps you didn't mean it like that).

Have you run removal tools for each AV?
I imagine he had buggy/half installed free AV programs that shifted from a Win7/8 installation to Win10, and predictably, they resulted in issues.

Honestly, just uninstall the lot and stick with Defender.
 

Ketchup

Elite Member
Sep 1, 2002
14,494
220
106
Appreciate the feedback. Let's see:
1. If the computer was sitting here, you can bet I would just back up and fresh install. Getting to him would not be easy, and talking through a fresh install is too risky.
2. Everything AV I have installed ran a fine uninstaller, and the computer resumed normal operation without the AV (Defender only).
3. He might be fine with Defender, but he doesn't think he would be, he fell for a couple scams when using Defender, so he wants something better.

I personally don't upgrade a lot, so I just think it's ridiculous that so many things don't work correctly after the upgrade. Maybe he and I are odd-balls here.

As for as an update: he talked to HP and they got his printer working. He didn't go into details. Norton is also working for him, so all is well as far as he's concerned, for now anyway.
 

[DHT]Osiris

Diamond Member
Dec 15, 2015
9,361
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3. He might be fine with Defender, but he doesn't think he would be, he fell for a couple scams when using Defender, so he wants something better.
He'd likely fall for scams no matter what was installed. If he's the type of user that is going to click past the defenses set up for him, you might as well take the damn computer from him and give him an ipad or something.

Having layers of AV/AM 3-5 deep causes all sorts of stupid crap to happen with Windows. Most of these are designed to operate solo, and MS heavily favors defender.
 

mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
14,943
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Presumably you are aware of the official removal tools available for most AV products? A lot of the time I only use those tools rather than the standard uninstall method simply because the former are designed to work as thoroughly as possible, no matter what.

For example, I once experienced the following with a customer's computer: This was several years ago, and IIRC the purpose of the original appointment was to boost the PC's performance. Norton Internet Security was installed, so I removed it. The standard uninstaller that came with it ran flawlessly. The computer worked flawlessly afterwards. Three months later (and this computer was in daily use), the customer couldn't get on the Internet with it. I tried tonnes of things on it to no avail. I then remembered that Norton had been on it. As I had run out of other ideas, I ran the Norton Removal Tool. Problem fixed.
 
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[DHT]Osiris

Diamond Member
Dec 15, 2015
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Presumably you are aware of the official removal tools available for most AV products? A lot of the time I only use those tools rather than the standard uninstall method simply because the former are designed to work as thoroughly as possible, no matter what.

For example, I once experienced the following with a customer's computer: This was several years ago, and IIRC the purpose of the original appointment was to boost the PC's performance. Norton Internet Security was installed, so I removed it. The standard uninstaller that came with it ran flawlessly. The computer worked flawlessly afterwards. Three months later (and this computer was in daily use), the customer couldn't get on the Internet with it. I tried tonnes of things on it to no avail. I then remembered that Norton had been on it. As I had run out of other ideas, I ran the Norton Removal Tool. Problem fixed.
My issue is, the msi uninstaller package is quite capable of ripping every single thing that program puts in place out with it, including temp folders, registry settings, folder alterations, or whatever else. If a company is designing a program with an installation/uninstallation procedure, they need to do it right the first time around and ensure that the built-in uninstall procedure actually does what it's supposed to. Providing a secondary 'norton_uninstaller_pro_x64_7.1.043.exe' that you have to track down from their webpage is ridiculous in this day and age.

If the uninstaller doesn't work, and causes issues after the fact, I'd rank the program right up there with the malware/virus it's designed to protect from.
 

denis280

Diamond Member
Jan 16, 2011
3,434
9
81
So I have been pretty happy with a fresh install of Windows 10. Now the upgrade, that's a whole other story. With my desktop, it came when I tried to install Sling. It wouldn't install no matter what compatibility mode I chose, yet on a VM running Windows 10, no problems at all.

Fast forward 6 months: have a friend who upgraded from 8.1 to 10 a couple months ago (and called me after the fact, isn't that how these things normally go?). Originally it was a security scare, but come to find out this Dell just does not like other AV. We have tried Kaspersky, ESET, Bitdefender, AVG, and Norton (all free trials) and all of them either stop other programs from working, or won't install at all. The latest, Norton, started off the best, won't allow the Photos app to work properly (starts for a second then stops), and even with the latest drivers from HP, will only print pictures in Black and white with the leftover Windows 7/8 Photo Viewer. One of the other programs started zooming on the desktop for no particular reason.

So what's the deal? Are any of you all running into issues with the "free" upgrade to 10?

I am about to ask my guy to bring his machine over, and just doing a clean 10 install, as this thing is driving us both nuts.
This is why i went back to 7,after battling over and over with all this update crap.update crap....update crap..Well you get the pictureo_O
 

mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
14,943
5,125
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My issue is, the msi uninstaller package is quite capable of ripping every single thing that program puts in place out with it, including temp folders, registry settings, folder alterations, or whatever else. If a company is designing a program with an installation/uninstallation procedure, they need to do it right the first time around and ensure that the built-in uninstall procedure actually does what it's supposed to. Providing a secondary 'norton_uninstaller_pro_x64_7.1.043.exe' that you have to track down from their webpage is ridiculous in this day and age.

If the uninstaller doesn't work, and causes issues after the fact, I'd rank the program right up there with the malware/virus it's designed to protect from.
For a while the standard uninstaller for Norton software was so bad (failing regularly) that I suspected that it was by design: Making it more difficult to remove and causing some people to re-subscribe as they've run out of ideas for getting rid of Norton. (this was some years ago now though)
 
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[DHT]Osiris

Diamond Member
Dec 15, 2015
9,361
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For a while the standard uninstaller for Norton software was so bad (failing regularly) that I suspected that it was by design: Making it more difficult to remove and causing some people to re-subscribe as they've run out of ideas for getting rid of Norton. (this was some years ago now though)
I would not be surprised by this at all. In addition I'm sure there were some intentional 'conflicts' set up between AV products so they walk over each other, causing issues. And of course each vendor would insist that you uninstall the other vendor's products 'because reasons'.
 

RLGL

Golden Member
Jan 8, 2013
1,867
226
106
Use windows defender for security. The rest have had many issues with 10. Kaspersky is even complaining about it. Besides it's FREE This should fix a bunch of issues.
 

simas

Senior member
Oct 16, 2005
410
106
116
Not sure why you are getting such (bad) AV advice - for reference point I have Bitdefender on 4 computers and Eset on 2 more, everything runs on Windows 10 with zero issues. Also these programs are dirt cheap if you look for sales , i.e. I just refreshed a year worth of 3 computer subscriptions for $12.
 

Ketchup

Elite Member
Sep 1, 2002
14,494
220
106
Not sure why you are getting such (bad) AV advice - for reference point I have Bitdefender on 4 computers and Eset on 2 more, everything runs on Windows 10 with zero issues. Also these programs are dirt cheap if you look for sales , i.e. I just refreshed a year worth of 3 computer subscriptions for $12.
Yes, BD ran perfectly fine for a week on my fresh-inst of 10 on a VM. But on his Dell upgraded from 8.1? Its main service refused to run. The funny part was the most recent Google hits for the error were for the message it gave people before 10 was fully supported. TBH, I think this has more to do with the vagueness of the message than anything specific about the error.
 
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RLGL

Golden Member
Jan 8, 2013
1,867
226
106
Not sure why you are getting such (bad) AV advice - for reference point I have Bitdefender on 4 computers and Eset on 2 more, everything runs on Windows 10 with zero issues. Also these programs are dirt cheap if you look for sales , i.e. I just refreshed a year worth of 3 computer subscriptions for $12.
Not bad advice , go into the windows preview forums, many issues with security products.
 

RLGL

Golden Member
Jan 8, 2013
1,867
226
106
there is more going on here than I can explain, BUT: software interactions on each computer are different, The user experience is different across the board.
 

biostud

Lifer
Feb 27, 2003
15,572
874
126
using an f-secure based av, and have no problems with it on my old HP probook 6360b (i5 2540M) and win 10.
 

Ketchup

Elite Member
Sep 1, 2002
14,494
220
106
HP took care of the printer issue. Norton is back on and fine. All the others not working is annoying, but doesn't really matter and the computer seems to be fine atm.
 

Ketchup

Elite Member
Sep 1, 2002
14,494
220
106
Found a new one yesterday - a friend of mine took the free upgrade, didn't like it, and asked me to take it off. All was fine for a few months until he asked me to look an issue yesterday, and while checking things out, noticed that System Restore was turned off and would not start. Found it was due to issues in Task Scheduler and the changes that the upgrade that the Windows upgrade causes. I actually ran into this, but was able to fix it before I did my fresh install. Since he rolled back to 7, it was a different story. Found that someone had written a file just to fix issues like this, and MS seemed to be ok with it. It fixed some Task Scheduler errors, but of course not the one that brought me there.

In all the years I have known him, he has never used System Restore, so I am not too worried about it. Just makes me a little more annoyed that MS would push so hard on this Upgrade, giving you the option of rolling back, but leave you with a less than 100% working PC if you do anything but ignore it.
 
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