FINAL WMD thread, NO spin, NO off topic

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DanJ

Diamond Member
Oct 15, 1999
3,509
0
0
AEB, tell me whether or not you to consider this to be a lie:

Bush starts by trying to lead the American public into believing that Iraq had something to do with 9-11 even though no intelligence has proven it. Ask a common politically uneducated U.S. citizen and I bet at least 50% will say that Iraq had a hand in Iraq or that Saddam himself bombed us on 9-11. This admin was intentionally misleading in order to gain political favor amongst the population.

Then you go to the State of the Union last year in which he outlined how Iraq was trying to get nuclear materials and had actually purchased uranium from Niger; big surprise that intel was less then reliable, some think the CIA even knew it was unreliable before the speech was made. I don't remember Bush going on air after that and saying "OOPs Disregard that!"

The fact is that Bush grabbed at less then reliable intelligence to mislead the American public into thinking the threat from Iraq was imminent and immediate (even if they're going to argue semantics of that first word, poor Rummy got his lies handed to him on Face the Nation at least). Bush stated as FACT that Iraq was:

A. Essentially part of 9-11
B. Had nuclear capability or was getting more
C. Had WMDs

He stated as fact that weapons inspections wouldn't work and that Iraq couldn't be disarmed; he said as fact that once we got in there it'd all be clear.

Well we're there and we don't have jack. The president goes up on his last state of the union and says Iraq had "Weapons of mass destruction-related program activities", whatever the hell that means. I don't remember that a couple of years ago. He says Saddam is a madman and the U.S. won't deal with madmen; well there's a ton of madmen, one that actually hit us for 3000 citizens a couple years ago that Bush doesn't much like to talk about anymore. Bush didn't go in on "Weapons of mass destruction-related program activities" or Saddam is a bad man; he went in on Iraq has WMDs, we're going to find them and destroy them.

He mislead the public on intel time and time again, implying he had facts when in reality they clearly did not. If you state something as fact that you don't know is fact or can't prove is fact you're lying. If you lead a nation into a war that will last an indeterminate amount of time while taking focus away from Afghanistan and Al Qaeda you better have some concrete facts and something to back it up with. This is revisionist history the administartion is trying to pull now. Hopefully the general public begins to see this and this next election will be a referendum on his administration.
 

DanJ

Diamond Member
Oct 15, 1999
3,509
0
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(just some more as I'm fired up at the moment)

The administration purposely mislead the public into thinking Iraq was more of a threat then it really was. Its a lot easier to destroy a nation that has very little ways to fight back militarily then it is to hunt a terrorist group. Its a lot easier to tell the American public to watch the news at noon because we're going to SHOCK AND AWE the hell out of these bastards, rather then focusing completely on the bastards that actually SHOCKED AND AWED us. Just like Clarke said Rummy said, there's a lot better targets in Iraq then there is in Afghanistan. There's a whole lot better targets in Iraq then in a nationless terrorist group bent on our destruction.

This war was a waste of lives and American dollars (because you sure as hell know we're going to be paying for it for a long long time). Al Qaeda is still out there at large plotting whatever it is they do. Hamas wants us now due to Israel's rash decision. Marines are dying day in and day in Iraq at the hands of people that just want to see America burned and butchered. Most people in that nation don't look to fondly upon us for this war, hence increased terrorism is occuring.

This war is just pouring gasoline on the fire. It was politically motivated as a simple way to show American might. Bush says he's doing something on the war on terror by saying look we blew the hell out of Iraq and Iraq is the center of the war on terror. Maybe one day he'll realize this isn't a cold war situation. There is no center to the war on terror. Blowing up a country that didn't hit us in 9-11 isn't going to help it. Complete international unity and tightening a broad noose on these people is the only way to win this war.

We need a president who attempts to make that happen.
 

DanJ

Diamond Member
Oct 15, 1999
3,509
0
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Does anyone else find it funny that the Admin is now essentially blaming Clarke for 9-11 and every terrorist activity that has ever happened with him in the Government. I find it funny because Cheney went on Rush (nice, eh?) yesterday and said:

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Well, I wasn't directly involved in that decision. He was moved out of the counterterrorism business over to the cyber security side of things, that is he was given a new assignment at some point here. I don't recall the exact time frame.

Rush: Cyber security, meaning Internet security?

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes, worried about attacks on the computer systems and the sophisticated information technology systems we have these days that an adversary would use or try to the system against us.

Rush: Well, now that explains a lot, that answer right there explains -- (Laughter.)

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Well, he wasn't -- he wasn't in the loop, frankly, on a lot of this stuff.


So the administration wants it both ways now? They want to be able to blame him for everything bad that ever happened, and 9-11, and then say he had no knowledge of 9-11 or terrorist activity, non-cyber-security related, because they took him out of the loop when they moved in.

Its just hilarious at this point. The buck never stops at Bush.
 

Gaard

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2002
8,911
1
0
AEB, do you agree ao disagree with this?

Bush meant to deceive us all into thinking he knew FOR A FACT that Iraq had WMD. (ergo...he lied)
 

AEB

Senior member
Jun 12, 2003
681
0
0
But iraq did have WMD, and it is my opinion they still do (in the sand). Saying HE knew personally is kind of misleading, no one really knows anything for sure, because anything can happen.

At any rate it seems most people are using 2 people to prove bush lied. Kay and Clarke, neither of which seem credible to me. That however is a small issue. Its really is hard to prove one way or another, arguments from either side really only bring me to the middle not leaning one way or another, and i think thats the problem. No one is convincing.

As for the link of al-qaida and iraq there actually was one. I was watching the 9-11 hearings or whatever and the clintion def sec. said that the owner or manager of a plant they thought to be making chemical weapons, that bin laden wanted to buy, went to iraq AFTER he(the owner) found out bin laden was interested. Im not claiming thisis a connection but it is something to think about. What are the chances they (saddam and OBL) by chance used teh same suspected chemical arms dealer without connection.

My personal opinion is i dont think they were working together operation wise, but they were tied becausse they had teh same goal. Deystroy the US and its allies.

That said i am satisfied with how this thread turned out thanks to everyone, i guess we wait for new developements.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,803
6,360
126
Originally posted by: AEB
But iraq did have WMD, and it is my opinion they still do (in the sand). Saying HE knew personally is kind of misleading, no one really knows anything for sure, because anything can happen.

At any rate it seems most people are using 2 people to prove bush lied. Kay and Clarke, neither of which seem credible to me. That however is a small issue. Its really is hard to prove one way or another, arguments from either side really only bring me to the middle not leaning one way or another, and i think thats the problem. No one is convincing.

As for the link of al-qaida and iraq there actually was one. I was watching the 9-11 hearings or whatever and the clintion def sec. said that the owner or manager of a plant they thought to be making chemical weapons, that bin laden wanted to buy, went to iraq AFTER he(the owner) found out bin laden was interested. Im not claiming thisis a connection but it is something to think about. What are the chances they (saddam and OBL) by chance used teh same suspected chemical arms dealer without connection.

My personal opinion is i dont think they were working together operation wise, but they were tied becausse they had teh same goal. Deystroy the US and its allies.

That said i am satisfied with how this thread turned out thanks to everyone, i guess we wait for new developements.

Ridiculous. Kay and Clarke not credible? A connection that only you know about?
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,685
136
Show me otherwise

WTF is this, anyway? Blind obedience week, or what? GWB is the party who made the accusations, and GWB is the party who needs to prove his point, and he can't. None of his accusations for invading Iraq have been substantiated in any way- zero, zip, zilch, nothing, nada- not a shred of proof whatsoever, and AEB has the gall to demand that detractors prove their point.... which is, of course, impossible. I can't prove there are no fairies in Ireland, or that the easter bunny isn't real, either, but that doesn't change the simple fact that they're only stories intended to amuse children. Children eventually grow up and realize the truth, unless they're in thrall to the rhetoric of the far right. In that case, they still believe in fairy tales...
 

DanJ

Diamond Member
Oct 15, 1999
3,509
0
0
Originally posted by: AEB
Show me otherwise

Guilty until proven innocent. Interesting....

30 years of work in the Government. Multiple administrations, both Dem and Republican. Often called the insider's insider, Terroism Czar, etc...etc...

Give me an example of someone you *would trust*? (or is it only those 110% loyal to Bush?)
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,803
6,360
126
Originally posted by: Jhhnn
Show me otherwise

WTF is this, anyway? Blind obedience week, or what? GWB is the party who made the accusations, and GWB is the party who needs to prove his point, and he can't. None of his accusations for invading Iraq have been substantiated in any way- zero, zip, zilch, nothing, nada- not a shred of proof whatsoever, and AEB has the gall to demand that detractors prove their point.... which is, of course, impossible. I can't prove there are no fairies in Ireland, or that the easter bunny isn't real, either, but that doesn't change the simple fact that they're only stories intended to amuse children. Children eventually grow up and realize the truth, unless they're in thrall to the rhetoric of the far right. In that case, they still believe in fairy tales...

Ya, no sh1t. I often pause and wonder, "Am I the one who's wrong?"(occassionally I am), then something else comes out vindicating my position(s). It's getting ridiculous lately, it seems like half the World(of ATP&N anyway)has put their brain in Neutral and refuse to discuss anything resembling the growing evidence of Truth. I suppose that's why they are called, "Blind Loyalists".
 

Wanescotting

Diamond Member
Feb 4, 2004
3,219
0
76
Hmmm....
A simple formula for you folks:

Crazy(lunatic) dictator with unlimited funds (taken from his own people)
+
The Knowledge to produce wmds

=
_________________________________________________________
Weapons of mass destruction

How you ask, does this pertain?

Simple.

all that is missing is opportunity and motive(wait, strike that, he had his choice of many)

so he had means, motive, but lacked opportunity(we took that away by knocking him out of power)

funny, in this country if you are accused of murder and had means, motive, and opportunity, you will likely be convicted.

SO maybe, just maybe, bush struck first because of the information he was givin, regarding opportunity!
 

Spencer278

Diamond Member
Oct 11, 2002
3,637
0
0
Originally posted by: AEB
But iraq did have WMD, and it is my opinion they still do (in the sand). Saying HE knew personally is kind of misleading, no one really knows anything for sure, because anything can happen.

At any rate it seems most people are using 2 people to prove bush lied. Kay and Clarke, neither of which seem credible to me. That however is a small issue. Its really is hard to prove one way or another, arguments from either side really only bring me to the middle not leaning one way or another, and i think thats the problem. No one is convincing.

As for the link of al-qaida and iraq there actually was one. I was watching the 9-11 hearings or whatever and the clintion def sec. said that the owner or manager of a plant they thought to be making chemical weapons, that bin laden wanted to buy, went to iraq AFTER he(the owner) found out bin laden was interested. Im not claiming thisis a connection but it is something to think about. What are the chances they (saddam and OBL) by chance used teh same suspected chemical arms dealer without connection.

My personal opinion is i dont think they were working together operation wise, but they were tied becausse they had teh same goal. Deystroy the US and its allies.

That said i am satisfied with how this thread turned out thanks to everyone, i guess we wait for new developements.


The main evidence that bush lied is that we didn't find any WMD. The other stuff is just extra proof.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,803
6,360
126
Originally posted by: Wanescotting
Hmmm....
A simple formula for you folks:

Crazy(lunatic) dictator with unlimited funds (taken from his own people)
+
The Knowledge to produce wmds

=
_________________________________________________________
Weapons of mass destruction

How you ask, does this pertain?

Simple.

all that is missing is opportunity and motive(wait, strike that, he had his choice of many)

so he had means, motive, but lacked opportunity(we took that away by knocking him out of power)

funny, in this country if you are accused of murder and had means, motive, and opportunity, you will likely be convicted.

SO maybe, just maybe, bush struck first because of the information he was givin, regarding opportunity!

Maybe, but that's not what he said.
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
Originally posted by: AEB
Show me otherwise
1. You bear the burden of proof.

2. It's far more than just Clarke and Kay.

3. Did you read anything written here? Did you read any of the threads & articles referenced? Why should we give you any credibility at all when you seem unwilling to make even minimal efforts to educate yourself?
 

fjord

Senior member
Feb 18, 2004
667
0
0
From the Link of the original post:

?WMD: Believe Iraq or Believe the Evidence?"
Compiled By: Ryan Mauro

These completely fail the level of evidence and certainly that of proof.

A carefull reading of 1 and 2 (presumtively the most important pieces of "evidence" since they are listed first)...does not even meet the level of hearsay.

            1) The intelligence communities of every major country were confident that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction before 2003. These include the United States, Canada, France, the United Nations, the United Kingdom, Germany, Spain, Australia, Japan, even Iran and a slew of others. It was a working assumption that such WMD was in Iraq, so much that I never heard accusations that it wasn?t true until the political war heated up in March, 2003.


            2) Colin Powell?s presentation at the UN in February 2003 proved that Iraq was deceiving UN inspectors. What is there to hide?

---
Wow, this is poor.
 

classy

Lifer
Oct 12, 1999
15,219
1
81
LOL. No Spin? There is only one question. And its a simple yes or no answer.
The question:
Have they found WMDs?
The answer:
No
Its that simple.
I can believe I'll find gold in Fort Knox. But if I get there and find none, then all the ifs, ands, and buts don't mean a thing.