Filing assault charges on medical professionals who makes mistakes

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Texashiker

Lifer
Dec 18, 2010
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Medical procedures can not have guaranteed outcomes. That is impossible.

We are not talking about the outcome of a medical procedure.

The OP of this thread talked about medical personnel making mistakes. If that nurse in the OP would have been on the street instead of in a hospital, cutting off the finger of a child would have been met with dire criminal charges.

Nowhere in this thread has anyone talked about punishing nurses or doctors for providing quality care, or even punishing medical personal for sub-standard care.

This thread is supposed to be about doctors and nurses making life changing mistakes.

You go into the hospital to have a lung removed that has cancer in it. The doctor removed the wrong lung.

You gave the doctor permission to remove the cancerous lung. The doctor in removing the wrong lung acted outside the permission you granted him/her. In any other setting, cutting someone with a knife is assault.

In the medical release form you grant the doctor permission to cut you here and there. Why should the doctor get a free ride if he cuts you somewhere else you did not give permission?
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
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Doctors get hit all the time for criminal negligence just like any other profession. See Micheal Jackons doctor.
 

Texashiker

Lifer
Dec 18, 2010
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So, in summary,

1. the suggestion the OP has made - that doctors aren't held criminally negligent - has been proven false.
2. It has also been demonstrated that the OP doesn't know the difference between negligent and criminally negligent.

Do you have anything worthwhile to contribute?
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
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Well.... Assault is both an intentional Tort and a criminal offense... simple negligence is not ordinarily.

I don't think the elements for Assault are present in the OP's post. And I don't know what the cutting might be considered but I sure don't think a battery occurred...

I'd say at best gross negligence might have occurred which like in the Jackson case could be both a Tort and Criminal.

To be criminal the act would have to contain BOTH actus reus and mens rea (guilty act and guilty mind)
 
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dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,894
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www.alienbabeltech.com
Filing assault charges on medical professionals who makes mistakes

It's called "Practicing Medicine" for a reason.

Hence Medical Malpractice Insurance

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_malpractice

Medical malpractice is professional negligence by act or omission by a health care provider in which the treatment provided falls below the accepted standard of practice in the medical community and causes injury or death to the patient, with most cases involving medical error.
 

Texashiker

Lifer
Dec 18, 2010
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Why do you think that wasn't worthwhile?
It answered your question.

No, drpizza did not answer the question. drpizza is a teacher, and teachers like to suppress abstract and free thought and or ideas.

When presented with a question, most of the people in this thread seem to be incapable of independent or abstract thought. The majority of the replies in this thread are nothing more then what you have been told. Instead of thinking for yourself, you regurgitate what you have been told.

When you go to a doctor for treatment, you and the doctor have a legal and binding agreement. If you need surgery, and the surgery is preformed wrong, why are the options limited to medical malpractice? The key word there is "why". A lot of people do not like to ask the important question of "why" must we do certain things certain ways?

If we threw doctors in prison for cutting off the wrong foot, before long we would have a shortage of doctors. But on the other hand, maybe the number of poorly preformed surgeries would go down.

If doctors knew that they and not the insurance company were going to be held responsible, would the doctors take more precautions to make sure the treatments are preformed properly?
 
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Exterous

Super Moderator
Jun 20, 2006
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and teachers like to suppress abstract and free thought and or ideas.

Riiiiiight. Do you consider making blanket generalizations part of abstract or free thought?

If we threw doctors in prison for cutting off the wrong foot, before long we would have a shortage of doctors. But on the other hand, maybe the number of poorly preformed surgeries would go down.

If doctors knew that they and not the insurance company were going to be held responsible, would the doctors take more precautions to make sure the treatments are preformed properly?

Well, first - the number of the sugeries might go down because they were 'more careful' or they might go up as the number of remaining doctors dwindled and were overworked. Or it might go down because they simply refused to do sugery. In that case you would be right but we would see an increase in the number of deaths from previously treatable symptoms so you would have accomplished nothing but the regression of medicine.* Of course before you go on making the claim that it might in fact go down how about you use some of your free and abstract thinking to do some actual studies to prove your therories rather than just spouting off about them. I, for one, am not willing to risk the system just because you want to perform some social experiments

You could even start with some statistics showing that doctors are already not careful before performing treatments

*This completely ignores the issue of proving the doctor was the one who made the mistake. Perhaps your abstract thinking neglected to cover instances where the doctor did everything correctly but someone else made the mistake. Does the doctor go to jail still? If not what sort of legal framework is in place to prevent this and find culpability? What about wait times? If we have fewer doctors what about wait times? Do you have anything to show the increase in that and making guesses about the decrease in the availability of doctors? What about cost? Fewer reasources means increased costs. If we have fewer doctors then those doctors are going to cost more. How do you make care affordable then?

Or are these details too specific and not abstract enough for you to consider? Personally it sounds to me like you found a nice 'free and abstract idea' that you are just wallowing in without bothering to do some indepth thinking about the consequences beyond 'Malpractice will go down!'

Edit: As for your OP it has already been shown that doctors and nurses can have criminal proceedings brought against them
 
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actuarial

Platinum Member
Jan 22, 2009
2,814
0
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No, drpizza did not answer the question. drpizza is a teacher, and teachers like to suppress abstract and free thought and or ideas.

Yes he did.

When presented with a question, most of the people in this thread seem to be incapable of independent or abstract thought. The majority of the replies in this thread are nothing more then what you have been told. Instead of thinking for yourself, you regurgitate what you have been told.

You have no basis for this comment. You have no idea what we have been told or how we came to form our opinions. Just because we hold an opinion that is consistent with the majority opinion does not mean we are simply regurgitating.

When you go to a doctor for treatment, you and the doctor have a legal and binding agreement. If you need surgery, and the surgery is preformed wrong, why are the options limited to medical malpractice? The key word there is "why". A lot of people do not like to ask the important question of "why" must we do certain things certain ways?

It has been shown that medical malpractice is not the only option, and it is impossible to answer a question based on false pretenses. I can't answer why the options are limited to medical malpractice any more than I can answer why the sky is purple.

If we threw doctors in prison for cutting off the wrong foot, before long we would have a shortage of doctors. But on the other hand, maybe the number of poorly preformed surgeries would go down.

I would hazard a guess that if we started throwing doctors in jail for making honest mistakes and this had a meaningful impact on the number of doctors (as you've suggested), we would require additional doctors to meet the demand. As such, we would be digging deeper into the talent pool and I would imagine the number of poorly performed procedures would go up. Or we could just overwork the remaining doctors until they make mistakes too. Or there won't be enough available doctors to perform the required life saving procedures.

If doctors knew that they and not the insurance company were going to be held responsible, would the doctors take more precautions to make sure the treatments are preformed properly?

Getting sued for malpractice doesn't simply end with an insurance company paying for damages and the doctor walking away as if nothing happened. The doctor could lose their license, their reputation and also their insurance premiums could be affected. All of those things can have a significant impact on someone's livelihood.
 

Texashiker

Lifer
Dec 18, 2010
18,811
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I would hazard a guess that if we started throwing doctors in jail for making honest mistakes and this had a meaningful impact on the number of doctors (as you've suggested), we would require additional doctors to meet the demand.

In the gun world there is no such thing as an "accidental discharge". If someone followed basic safety precautions, there should be no accidental discharges. If there is a discharge, its due to negligence.

If we take that same theory and applied it to medicine, the only way someone makes a mistake is by not following established procedures. By not following procedure, is the person negligent?

Forgetting to buy some eggs at the grocery store is an honest mistake.

Giving an infant an adult dose of medicine is negligence.

If there is an established medical procedure, such as a set of protocols the doctor is supposed to follow, and the doctor does not follow those protocols, is it a simple mistake, or negligence.
 

QuantumPion

Diamond Member
Jun 27, 2005
6,010
1
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I lost a brain cell reading this thread. I say we kill Texasdoucebagassholehiker.

Yeah TH is one of the biggest trolls on this forum. Don't take anything he posts seriously, it's all just in good fun. I wasn't convinced until this post (and others in this thread) which was just too over the top, haha.
 
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JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
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Example article, baby goes into hospital with fever. An IV is inserted. While removing the IV, a nurse uses scissors to cut the tape, and cuts one of the the babies fingers off.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/03/28...-babys-finger/

When we go into a hospital, we expect to be poked and prodded. But we do not give medical professionals permission to abuse us.

Instead of suing the hospital, why aren't criminal charges filled against the nurses and doctors.

The first thing you might say is the doctor or nurse never "intended" to harm the patient. That is true, but someone who drinks and drives never expects to get into a car wreck.

Giving Anarchist420 a run for his money.....
 

Texashiker

Lifer
Dec 18, 2010
18,811
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Giving Anarchist420 a run for his money.....

Do you have anything you wish to contribute to the thread?


Yeah TH is one of the biggest trolls on this forum. Don't take anything he posts seriously, it's all just in good fun.

Are you able to think of anything on your own? Do you have any original ideas, anything that society has not planted in your head?
 
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Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
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Do you have anything you wish to contribute to the thread?




Are you able to think of anything on your own? Do you have any original ideas, anything that society has not planted in your head?

I think he has a grip on "what happens next". Since there may be several options and one which in retrospect would be correct you make the practice of medicine a suicide career. You haven't proposed how care will be provided when there are no caregivers.
 

Texashiker

Lifer
Dec 18, 2010
18,811
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You haven't proposed how care will be provided when there are no caregivers.

Can we say the same thing about police officers? How about FBI, CIA, Secret Service? Every time a law enforcement officer uses deadly force, there is some kind of investigation.

If a doctor acts in a negligent way, its unlikely that criminal charges should be filed.

If a police officer acts in a negligent way, the public will be demanding some kind of punishment.

Using the example that we will have fewer doctors because they fear being held responsible, then we should have fewer people in law enforcement.

Who in their right mind would want to go into law enforcement if everytime they used lethal force, the death was going to be treated as a criminal investigation.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
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From the link in the OP, for most people, if they were to cut off the finger of an infant, that person would be prosecuted.




A lot of people in this thread are saying there was no intent.

Where does society draw the line on the "no intent" excuse?

Daddy did not intend to leave the pistol where the baby could reach it.
Johnny did not intend to kill 3 people while driving drunk.
The doctor did not intend to leave a swab in a patient and the person die from infection.

We already have. In general, "intent" is required for criminal charges or a person has to be grossly negligent (such as a drunk driver). We have a civil court that takes care of the other issues, including those that you have brought up in this thread. You don't throw people in jail for making an honest mistake that anyone else could have made.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,328
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Making people accountable for their actions is absurd?

Accountable to the point of throwing them in jail for a honest mistake? Yes that is absurd.

Hell, we already have the highest per capita incarceration rate among the civilized world and you want to start throwing people in jail for honest mistakes of which we currently have the civil courts for...


Even worse is the fact that under our current system the injured person can use the civil system to recoup expenses as well as pain and suffering from the person that made the mistake. Under your system that person would not be able to earn an income to pay those damages and the injured person is SOL in a lot of cases.