Fifth Amendment protection

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
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I have really mixed feeling aboutt his. Basically a SUSPECTED kiddy poron collector is protected under the fifth amendment from revealing his password on his encrypted volume on his PC. I think this is a great example of the double edged sword of freedom...it sounds to me by this article the prosecutor was going on a fishing expedition, which is clearly the presumption of guilt before innocence. All we have is the word of a customs agent.

As a side note, I'm all for PC security and have posted in several security forums the need for personal encryption, and although PGP is unbreakable, I prefer truecrypt, which is also unbreakable. Anyway, thats a side note.

I applaud this judges decision. This will most likely go to SCOTUS.

December 14, 2007 5:33 PM PST

Judge: Man can't be forced to divulge encryption passphrase
Posted by Declan McCullagh

A federal judge in Vermont has ruled that prosecutors can't force a criminal defendant accused of having illegal images on his hard drive to divulge his PGP (Pretty Good Privacy) passphrase.

U.S. Magistrate Judge Jerome Niedermeier ruled that a man charged with transporting child pornography on his laptop across the Canadian border has a Fifth Amendment right not to turn over the passphrase to prosecutors. The Fifth Amendment protects the right to avoid self-incrimination.

Niedermeier tossed out a grand jury's subpoena that directed Sebastien Boucher to provide "any passwords" used with his Alienware laptop. "Compelling Boucher to enter the password forces him to produce evidence that could be used to incriminate him," the judge wrote in an order dated November 29 that went unnoticed until this week. "Producing the password, as if it were a key to a locked container, forces Boucher to produce the contents of his laptop."

Especially if this ruling is appealed, U.S. v. Boucher could become a landmark case. The question of whether a criminal defendant can be legally compelled to cough up his encryption passphrase remains an unsettled one, with law review articles for the last decade arguing the merits of either approach. (A U.S. Justice Department attorney wrote an article in 1996, for instance, titled "Compelled Production of Plaintext and Keys.")

This debate has been one of analogy and metaphor. Prosecutors tend to view PGP passphrases as akin to someone possessing a key to a safe filled with incriminating documents. That person can, in general, be legally compelled to hand over the key. Other examples include the U.S. Supreme Court saying that defendants can be forced to provide fingerprints, blood samples, or voice recordings.

Orin Kerr, a former Justice Department prosecutor who's now a law professor at George Washington University, shares this view. Kerr acknowledges that it's a tough call, but says, "I tend to think Judge Niedermeier was wrong given the specific facts of this case."

The alternate view elevates individual rights over prosecutorial convenience. It looks to other Supreme Court cases saying Americans can't be forced to give "compelled testimonial communications" and argues the Fifth Amendment must apply to encryption passphrases as well. Courts already have ruled that that such protection extends to the contents of a defendant's minds, so why shouldn't a passphrase be shielded as well?

In this case, Judge Niedermeier took the second approach. He said that encryption keys can be "testimonial," and even the prosecution's alternative of asking the defendant to type in the passphrase when nobody was looking would be insufficient.

Laptop files: Unencrypted, then encrypted
A second reason this case is unusual is that Boucher was initially arrested when customs agents stopped him and searched his laptop when he and his father crossed the border from Canada on December 17, 2006. An officer opened the laptop, accessed the files without a password or passphrase, and allegedly discovered "thousands of images of adult pornography and animation depicting adult and child pornography."

Boucher was read his Miranda rights, waived them, and allegedly told the customs agents that he may have downloaded child pornography. But then--and this is key--the laptop was shut down after Boucher was arrested. It wasn't until December 26 that a Vermont Department of Corrections officer tried to access the laptop--prosecutors obtained a subpoena on December 19--and found that the Z: drive was encrypted with PGP, or Pretty Good Privacy. (PGP sells software, including whole disk encryption and drive-specific encryption. It's a little unclear what exactly happened, but one likely scenario is that Boucher configured PGP to forget his passphrase, effectively re-encrypting the Z: drive, after a few hours or days had elapsed.)

According to Niedermeier's written opinion, prosecutors sent Boucher a grand jury subpoena asking for the passwords because:


Secret Service Agent Matthew Fasvlo, who has experience and training in computer forensics, testified that it is nearly impossible to access these encrypted files without knowing the password. There are no "back doors" or secret entrances to access the files. The only way to get access without the password is to use an automated system which repeatedly guesses passwords. According to the government, the process to unlock drive Z could take years, based on efforts to unlock similarly encrypted files in another case. Despite its best efforts, to date the government has been unable to learn the password to access drive Z.

The opinion added:


If the subpoena is requesting production of the files in drive Z, the foregone conclusion doctrine does not apply. While the government has seen some of the files on drive Z, it has not viewed all or even most of them. While the government may know of the existence and location of the files it has previously viewed, it does not know of the existence of other files on drive Z that may contain incriminating material. By compelling entry of the password the government would be compelling production of all the files on drive Z, both known and unknown.

Boucher is a Canadian citizen who is a lawful permanent resident in the United States and lives with his father in Derry, N.H. Two attorneys listed as representing him could not immediately be reached for comment on Friday.

So what happens next? It's possible that prosecutors will be able to establish that Boucher's laptop has child pornography on it without being able to access it: after all, there were at least two federal agents who looked at the laptop when the Z: drive was still unencrypted.

But if this ruling in the case is eventually appealed, it could have a far-reaching impact in a pro-privacy or pro-law-enforcement direction.

Michael Froomkin, a law professor at the University of Miami, has written that the government "would have a very hard time" trying to obtain a memorized passphrase. A similar argument, published in the University of Chicago Legal Forum in 1996, says:


The courts likely will find that compelling someone to reveal the steps necessary to decrypt a PGP-encrypted document violates the Fifth Amendment privilege against compulsory self-incrimination. Because most users protect their private keys by memorizing passwords to them and not writing them down, access to encrypted documents would almost definitely require an individual to disclose the contents of his mind. This bars the state from compelling its production. This would force law enforcement officials to grant some form of immunity to the owners of these documents to gain access to them.

But prosecutors think they can split the idea of immunity into two halves: divulging the passphrase, and then using the passphrase to decrypt the files. A 1996 article by Philip Reitinger of the Department of Justice's computer crime section proposes a clever device for forcing a defendant to divulge a PGP passphrase and then convicting him anyway (remember, the passphrase lets the key be used to decrypt the document):


Finally, even if the foregoing considerations require the government to grant act-of-production immunity to compel production of a key, the scope of the immunity should be quite narrow. The contents of the key are not privileged, and it is the contents that will be used to decrypt a document. Therefore, the government can use the contents of the decrypted document without impediment. Unless the government cannot authenticate the document to be decrypted without using the act of production of the key, granting act-of-production immunity should have little effect.

Translation: Giving a defendant limited immunity in terms of forcing them to turn over the passphrase can lead to a conviction. That's because the fellow technically isn't being convicted based on his passphrase; he's being convicted for what it unlocks. Isn't the law grand?
 

Vette73

Lifer
Jul 5, 2000
21,503
8
0
I don;t think it will hold up under the 5th...

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.


the computer is evidance so it is not making him be a witness, just turning over evidance. Same as being compeled to turn over any other evidance. I highly doubt it will stand, esp the SC Bush has built now.


This is the type of case though you will see more of with tech. now being more and more common.
 
Jun 27, 2005
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I don't think he'll win.

I'm not a lawyer but...

I don't think passwords would be protected by the fifth amendment. The fifth protects you from having to give testimony that might incriminate yourself... But if you are ordered to turn over paperwork, emails or other evidence via a proper warrant then the fifth doesn't apply. I'd bet a dollar this will be overturned. Whether or not he complies after that is another story.


 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,914
2,359
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Although I understand the argument, I think as the article stated, it's two seperate issues. The first is compelling to turn over evidence, which would be the encrypted files he ALLEGEDLY has, but to access it he needs to provide written or verbal evidence to access it. THAT part, I believe, is protected.

Another way to look at it is, it appears the only evidence the prosecutor has is a border patrol agents word. I would think the he would need more than that. But, a written or verbal password is just that-written or verbal, and therefore cant be compelled to give it up.

The bottom line is, unless this guy succumbs to the pressure of the cops and/or the prosecutor, they wont get ANY evidence. They can throw him into solitary and he still doesnt have to talk, in which case, they wont get shit. They certainly will NEVER get it decrypted, therefore never prove their allegations.

As another side note, he fucked up by not nesting his volumes :p
 

Vette73

Lifer
Jul 5, 2000
21,503
8
0
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Although I understand the argument, I think as the article stated, it's two seperate issues. The first is compelling to turn over evidence, which would be the encrypted files he ALLEGEDLY has, but to access it he needs to provide written or verbal evidence to access it. THAT part, I believe, is protected.

Another way to look at it is, it appears the only evidence the prosecutor has is a border patrol agents word. I would think the he would need more than that. But, a written or verbal password is just that-written or verbal, and therefore cant be compelled to give it up.

The bottom line is, unless this guy succumbs to the pressure of the cops and/or the prosecutor, they wont get ANY evidence. They can throw him into solitary and he still doesnt have to talk, in which case, they wont get shit. They certainly will NEVER get it decrypted, therefore never prove their allegations.

As another side note, he fucked up by not nesting his volumes :p

Yea but a judge would hold him in comtempt and he would stay in jail for as long as they like. A guy has been in jail for years as the judge does not believe he has turned over all his assets for the court to se.
So he could do less jail time if he turned the password over.
 

1prophet

Diamond Member
Aug 17, 2005
5,313
534
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If he doesn't comply what are they going to do, waterboard him?;)

Even being held in contempt is better than being branded a sex offender for life.
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
60
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He went about this all wrong. He should just say he forgot the password phrase. If Hillary Clinton and other people can just say they forgot and get away with it then there is nothing the court can do.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,914
2,359
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Originally posted by: Marlin1975
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Although I understand the argument, I think as the article stated, it's two seperate issues. The first is compelling to turn over evidence, which would be the encrypted files he ALLEGEDLY has, but to access it he needs to provide written or verbal evidence to access it. THAT part, I believe, is protected.

Another way to look at it is, it appears the only evidence the prosecutor has is a border patrol agents word. I would think the he would need more than that. But, a written or verbal password is just that-written or verbal, and therefore cant be compelled to give it up.

The bottom line is, unless this guy succumbs to the pressure of the cops and/or the prosecutor, they wont get ANY evidence. They can throw him into solitary and he still doesnt have to talk, in which case, they wont get shit. They certainly will NEVER get it decrypted, therefore never prove their allegations.

As another side note, he fucked up by not nesting his volumes :p

Yea but a judge would hold him in comtempt and he would stay in jail for as long as they like. A guy has been in jail for years as the judge does not believe he has turned over all his assets for the court to se.
So he could do less jail time if he turned the password over.


He wouldnt be held as an enemy combatant under the unPatriotic Act, therefore cant be held indefinately.

Period.
 
Feb 24, 2001
14,550
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"I don't remember"

Good enough for the highest law enforcement position in the land, should work for this guy.

I think a good idea is to have your drive set to explode after say, not logging in for 3 or 4 days.

No way would they ever get to the pc before then. Or give them a password that destroys "sensitive" data but keeps everything else intact.

Many ways around it.
 

Vette73

Lifer
Jul 5, 2000
21,503
8
0
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: Marlin1975
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Although I understand the argument, I think as the article stated, it's two seperate issues. The first is compelling to turn over evidence, which would be the encrypted files he ALLEGEDLY has, but to access it he needs to provide written or verbal evidence to access it. THAT part, I believe, is protected.

Another way to look at it is, it appears the only evidence the prosecutor has is a border patrol agents word. I would think the he would need more than that. But, a written or verbal password is just that-written or verbal, and therefore cant be compelled to give it up.

The bottom line is, unless this guy succumbs to the pressure of the cops and/or the prosecutor, they wont get ANY evidence. They can throw him into solitary and he still doesnt have to talk, in which case, they wont get shit. They certainly will NEVER get it decrypted, therefore never prove their allegations.

As another side note, he fucked up by not nesting his volumes :p

Yea but a judge would hold him in comtempt and he would stay in jail for as long as they like. A guy has been in jail for years as the judge does not believe he has turned over all his assets for the court to se.
So he could do less jail time if he turned the password over.


He wouldnt be held as an enemy combatant under the unPatriotic Act, therefore cant be held indefinately.

Period.


Wanna bet...

http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/st...ation_world&id=4574983

This guy has been in jail for 11 years+. Yet has never been charged and never been held in front of a jury.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,914
2,359
126
Originally posted by: BrunoPuntzJones
"I don't remember"

Good enough for the highest law enforcement position in the land, should work for this guy.

I think a good idea is to have your drive set to explode after say, not logging in for 3 or 4 days.

No way would they ever get to the pc before then. Or give them a password that destroys "sensitive" data but keeps everything else intact.

Many ways around it.

Thats why I suggested nesting. It's an encrypted volume within an encrypted volume. In the security world it's known as plausible deniability. Inside the main encrypted drive is your honeypot. Store financial data, resume's, a journal, just fluff. THAT volume is visible to anyone who looks. But within that is your main volume, which does not show up ANYWHERE. The only way to open it is via passphrase. He could simply give them the passphrase for the honeypot, see he has nothing, and move on. Pleausible deniability. You cant prove what you dont know is there.
 

brxndxn

Diamond Member
Apr 3, 2001
8,475
0
76
I really hope he wins.. As much as I hate child pornography, I don't believe we should twist the 5th Amendment around to make exceptions to it just because some particular crime is horrible. If I'm guilty, you prove it; I'm not helping. That's how it works.. and that's how it needs to work.

 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
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I think I understand the legal issue and its absolute. He has a right to avoid self incrimination and divulging that password does exactly that.

There are many 1984 type white is black legal devices to try to color it different, but they all lead to the same constitutional slippery slope of trying to
get around what our constitution guarantees in rather clear language.
 

jonks

Lifer
Feb 7, 2005
13,918
20
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I think it's pretty moot for the defendant in question, even if the legal resolution with have future consequences. They already found unencrypted child porn so he can be tried with the evidence they currently have. And they can still introduce the names of the files that are encryped like "2yo raped during diaper change" (it's in the Order http://www.volokh.com/files/Boucher.pdf This guy is probably going to jail either way.

In a related note, he claims he downloads en mass from newsgroups, and if he comes across something childporn related when he's reviewing his downloads, then he will delete it. I find this plausable, as childporn spam shows up all over newsgroups. Passive possession is a dangerous thing to criminalize as it can be done accidentally. If he was in some alt.child-porn newsgroup, that's different. But alt.sex something can be spammed. His refusal to cooperate cannot be used against him in court, but in the court of public opinion, it's an indication he probably has a lot of stuff he didn't want the authorities to see.

EDIT: Link Fixed (the date must be a typo?)
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,914
2,359
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Originally posted by: sirjonk
I think it's pretty moot for the defendant in question, even if the legal resolution with have future consequences. They already found unencrypted child porn so he can be tried with the evidence they currently have. And they can still introduce the names of the files that are encryped like "2yo raped during diaper change" (it's in the Order http://www.volokh.com/files/Boucher.pdf) This guy is probably going to jail either way.

In a related note, he claims he downloads en mass from newsgroups, and if he comes across something childporn related when he's reviewing his downloads, then he will delete it. I find this plausable, as childporn spam shows up all over newsgroups. Passive possession is a dangerous thing to criminalize as it can be done accidentally. If he was in some alt.child-porn newsgroup, that's different. But alt.sex something can be spammed. His refusal to cooperate cannot be used against him in court, but in the court of public opinion, it's an indication he probably has a lot of stuff he didn't want the authorities to see.

Linky no worky

but

the thing is, they CANT prosecute him for what the found, because only one person SAW it, not transferred it as evidence. Thats the thing...the prosecutor has NOTHING in the way of evidence.
 

manowar821

Diamond Member
Mar 1, 2007
6,063
0
0
On a side note, I'm going to become rich and famous when I invent an encryption system that automatically destroys the data in said volume after X days of not being logged into, then zeros itself. Super security FTW.

Edit: Of-course, there will be a backup system available, but deleting the first volume erases all records of where the data was sent to as a copy, much less even IF it was backed up in the first place.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,914
2,359
126
Originally posted by: manowar821
On a side note, I'm going to become rich and famous when I invent an encryption system that automatically destroys the data in said volume after X days of not being logged into, then zeros itself. Super security FTW.

Edit: Of-course, there will be a backup system available, but deleting the first volume erases all records of where the data was sent to as a copy, much less even IF it was backed up in the first place.

Why bother when PGP and/or truecrypt's cannot be broken? whats the point? Just out of curiosity :)
 

manowar821

Diamond Member
Mar 1, 2007
6,063
0
0
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: manowar821
On a side note, I'm going to become rich and famous when I invent an encryption system that automatically destroys the data in said volume after X days of not being logged into, then zeros itself. Super security FTW.

Edit: Of-course, there will be a backup system available, but deleting the first volume erases all records of where the data was sent to as a copy, much less even IF it was backed up in the first place.

Why bother when PGP and/or truecrypt's cannot be broken? whats the point? Just out of curiosity :)

PGP can't be broken?
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,914
2,359
126
Originally posted by: manowar821
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: manowar821
On a side note, I'm going to become rich and famous when I invent an encryption system that automatically destroys the data in said volume after X days of not being logged into, then zeros itself. Super security FTW.

Edit: Of-course, there will be a backup system available, but deleting the first volume erases all records of where the data was sent to as a copy, much less even IF it was backed up in the first place.

Why bother when PGP and/or truecrypt's cannot be broken? whats the point? Just out of curiosity :)

PGP can't be broken?

Nope

edit: MOST people use 2056 bit RSA/IDEA encrytion, which is default, BTW if youre interested

Imagine...I could post my public PGP key here in the forum, and anyone with a private key could send me an encrypted post, on this or any forum, and no one but me could read it. It's unlocked only by MY private key.

Cant be broken. Pretty slick to be able to have conversations on a public messageboard in complete anonyminity :)
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,894
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: manowar821
On a side note, I'm going to become rich and famous when I invent an encryption system that automatically destroys the data in said volume after X days of not being logged into, then zeros itself. Super security FTW.

Edit: Of-course, there will be a backup system available, but deleting the first volume erases all records of where the data was sent to as a copy, much less even IF it was backed up in the first place.

Such a system already exists.

First a wipe program is executed.

Then a degausser circuit with built in drill routers engages.

First it zaps the platters and then drills holes.

With the new solid state flash drives just a wipe program is all that is necessary.
 

manowar821

Diamond Member
Mar 1, 2007
6,063
0
0
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: manowar821
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: manowar821
On a side note, I'm going to become rich and famous when I invent an encryption system that automatically destroys the data in said volume after X days of not being logged into, then zeros itself. Super security FTW.

Edit: Of-course, there will be a backup system available, but deleting the first volume erases all records of where the data was sent to as a copy, much less even IF it was backed up in the first place.

Why bother when PGP and/or truecrypt's cannot be broken? whats the point? Just out of curiosity :)

PGP can't be broken?

Nope

edit: MOST people use 2056 bit RSA/IDEA encrytion, which is default, BTW if youre interested

Imagine...I could post my public PGP key here in the forum, and anyone with a private key could send me an encrypted post, on this or any forum, and no one but me could read it. It's unlocked only by MY private key.

Cant be broken. Pretty slick to be able to have conversations on a public messageboard in complete anonyminity :)

My company uses PGP, I didn't know it was that... Effective.

Sweet.
 

Vette73

Lifer
Jul 5, 2000
21,503
8
0
Yea I just looked up PGP and it seems next to impossiable of cracking. France, or italy?, has sent systems to the FBI for help but i don;t think they have cracked it yet. And the company, PGP, says as always there is no backdoor.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,563
9
81
If the government is able to coerce a person to give up the information in the heads, in this case a password, what other avenues of abuse will be opened up?

The slippery slope is real. Just look at where we are today.
 

ahurtt

Diamond Member
Feb 1, 2001
4,283
0
0
I the cops want to search your house they get a warrant. They can search your car or your person if they have probable cause. If they have probable cause to believe they will find incriminating evidence on this mans computer, why is it any different from those scenarios?

By this guys argument, if a cop had probable cause to search your car but it was locked, you could simply refuse to unlock the car to permit the search claiming that unlocking your car would be self-incriminating. If they can produce a warrant or demonstrate probable cause, I think this guy should be made to grant them access to the computer. He doesn't have to tell them the password, but he does have to reveal the content it protects.