Few questions about Projectors

TidusZ · Feb 7, 2009

Looking at getting an Epson 6100 to fill a 77" screen size (38" vertical) that is above a fireplace and on a mantle, so kind of high up compared to the couches. I have a few questions:

I have read that a low grain screen will be better for viewing angles. How would the viewing angles compare with a lcd or plasma tv with a grain of 1.0? 0.8? Would it be good enough to watch it if the screen is centred five feet in the air or so?

Is it better to mount the projector closer up or further away for the same screen size? How does zoom work? My thinking would be that closer would be better, but I'm not sure.

Also, I want to hook up a nintendo Wii to the projector, anyone got a good idea for how to do that? The controllers are wireless which helps, but putting disks in might be a hassle having to get a chair to stand on. I suppose I can do this if it gets down to that though.

Never owned a projector, but I think for $2000 + a screen it will be the best buy considering the large room size and everything, compared to a tv.

sdifox · Feb 7, 2009

The closer the screen is the brighter it can be. but it doesn't sound like projection would work for your situation. Above a fireplace on a mantle??? 5ft off the floor is no go for projector. Are you ever going to use the fireplace and the pj at the same time? Then you have to worry about heat damage.

You could have an electric screen that you can unroll when you need it. That way you don't need to think about it being above the fireplace, rather in front of it.

the only thing that is mounted on the ceiling is the projector, which is in term connected to your receiver through a set of cables. your wii hooks up to the receiver

Like I said, it doesn't look like it will work that way. Put up a layout diagram and maybe we can reconfigure the room, but as it stands, nothing will look good. You can mount a plasma up there with an angling bracket, but it will not look good.

TidusZ · Feb 7, 2009

Here's a picture of the room and mantle.

http://i17.photobucket.com/alb...tidus1492/IMG_3424.jpg

From the ceiling to the ledge is 44", the width of that gap is 80", so hanging from ceiling I could get a 90" diag screen at 16:9. From the ground to the ledge is 4'3" (51 "). The furthest couch is about 11'-12' away and then there is a bar with stools about 18' away. Heat isn't a concern above the fireplace, but putting the screen below the ledge in front of the fireplace isn't really an option. This is an old picture btw, and the curtains have been replaced with ones that will block light much better.

How much worse is it gonna look? Is it like DLP vertical viewing angles? This is mainly for my parents although I'll be using it a bit, they aren't videophiles, but are they gonna be pissed if they go projector instead of plasma? The viewing distance is pretty huge.

Also, is there a place in Canada that would let me buy the projector or tv and get it setup and see if its good enough, and if not, let me take it back to get money back even though its opened? Fat chance I imagine..

vshah · Feb 7, 2009

honestly your biggest concern with a projector is daylight viewing. unless the room is totally light controlled, it can be an issue. dooes the 6100 have lens shift? check out the panny ae3000u, it makes for very versatile mounting

YOyoYOhowsDAjello · Feb 7, 2009

Resembles my setup in my old place a bit
https://mywebspace.wisc.edu/sp...oom/screen%2016by9.jpg

Having a screen that high up is not ideal, but you're going to have an issue with that no matter what the display type you choose. As for viewing angle, I've used both a white painted wall (pictured here) and a screen I made out of blackout cloth
http://forums.anandtech.com/me...=y&keyword1=diy+screen

In both cases, my viewing angles have been excellent. My parents have a 1080p Mitsubishi DLP and the viewing angles are just good enough that it looks decent at their seating positions. With my projection setups, I could be anywhere in the room vertically or horizontally and it looks uniform and very good. I'll try to remember to take some pictures next time I turn it on.

It could very well be the gain my my screen experiences that have let me have such a positive viewing angle experience. I believe both have been about 1.0 for the gain.

So are you keeping part of the budget reserved for a sound system? It would be a good idea to have one with whatever display technology you choose, but it's required for a front projection setup. As sdifox mentioned, you'd run all your sources to the receiver (you could probably put that on one of the lower cabinet shelves on the side in front)? From the receiver to the projector, you'd just need to run a video cable or video cables depending on the capabilities of the receiver in terms of video conversion.

Since this is for your parents, you should probably go out with them to some reputable AV specialty stores (if they're available in your area) and see a well set up projector setup vs. plasma (or whatever else) and have them sit at the intended viewing distances to simulate the experience in their own environment. For me, the screen size of the projector outweighs the drawbacks of the display type. At 12' and 18' back, you definitely will want a large display to really take advantage of HD content.

One of the biggest issues with front projection is ambient lighting. The darker the room is, the better the display is going to look.
Just for example, here's a picture of finding nemo with the lights off
https://mywebspace.wisc.edu/sp...20by%209/Nemo%2005.JPG
In an adjacent room, I had one small light on that made it through to this room and changed the image to this
https://mywebspace.wisc.edu/sp...s%2C%20light%20on).JPG

You said there are light blocking curtains, which is great. Sounds like you've thought this out ahead of time. Think about light coming in from other rooms though too

As for buying to try out, that's going to depend on the places around you. You may be able to work out something like that, but I'm not sure. I know there are some places around me that actually rent out projectors to people, but it's rather expensive (about $100 a day).

With a projector,
You'll need a sound system
You'll need to have a more complex setup for physically placing things
You'll need to route more cables around the room somehow
You'll need to deal with bulb replacement
You'll need to keep the room as dark as possible

In return you'll get a huge screen size for a cinematic experience

vshah · Feb 7, 2009

Originally posted by: YOyoYOhowsDAjello

With a projector,
You'll need a sound system
You'll need to have a more complex setup for physically placing things
You'll need to route more cables around the room somehow
You'll need to deal with bulb replacement
You'll need to keep the room as dark as possible

In return you'll get a huge screen size for a cinematic experience

even with all that, once you get a projector, you will not want to go back to anything less.

:thumbsup:

sdifox · Feb 7, 2009

Originally posted by: TidusZ
Here's a picture of the room and mantle.

http://i17.photobucket.com/alb...tidus1492/IMG_3424.jpg

From the ceiling to the ledge is 44", the width of that gap is 80", so hanging from ceiling I could get a 90" diag screen at 16:9. From the ground to the ledge is 4'3" (51 "). The furthest couch is about 11'-12' away and then there is a bar with stools about 18' away. Heat isn't a concern above the fireplace, but putting the screen below the ledge in front of the fireplace isn't really an option. This is an old picture btw, and the curtains have been replaced with ones that will block light much better.

How much worse is it gonna look? Is it like DLP vertical viewing angles? This is mainly for my parents although I'll be using it a bit, they aren't videophiles, but are they gonna be pissed if they go projector instead of plasma? The viewing distance is pretty huge.

Also, is there a place in Canada that would let me buy the projector or tv and get it setup and see if its good enough, and if not, let me take it back to get money back even though its opened? Fat chance I imagine..

I don't think your parents would be into projectors. Unless you spend big bux on full automation, it is strictly for tinkerers. Also, they are not ideal for daytime viewing, which I figure your parents would do quite a bit of.

There is no way any retailer will allow you to do that (buy and try) other than Costco. Mind you their policy has changed and you have a shorter return window.

Electric screens are not cheap either. And from your setup I think an electric screen say a foot in front of the fireplace that deploys when you need to watch it is the best you can do, but it will not look very nice. So I think projector is out of the question for you.

Bottom line is if you want the display to not obstruct/obscure the fireplace, you are going to have to live with a smaller display.

YOyoYOhowsDAjello · Feb 7, 2009

Originally posted by: vshah

Originally posted by: YOyoYOhowsDAjello

With a projector,
You'll need a sound system
You'll need to have a more complex setup for physically placing things
You'll need to route more cables around the room somehow
You'll need to deal with bulb replacement
You'll need to keep the room as dark as possible

In return you'll get a huge screen size for a cinematic experience

Click to expand...

even with all that, once you get a projector, you will not want to go back to anything less. :thumbsup:

Oh I agree, but the bulb replacement and the complexity of the setup were reasons I didn't recommend one for my own parents. For them, a 52" set with about a 8' seating distance was good enough.

I doubt I'll be buying anything other than a projector for movie viewing in the future though... I'm hooked.

YOyoYOhowsDAjello · Feb 7, 2009

TidusZ · Feb 7, 2009

Wow, thanks a lot for the excellent posts yoyo. I gotta admit, I think I've underestimated the importance of lighting and overestimated the importance of viewing angles. The curtains we have are decent for blocking out light, but I think we'd still need to get something better. From the reviews and stuff for the Epson 6100 it made it sound like having a light or two on wouldn't make too big of a deal, but in those pictures its night and day, almost unwatchable with just a bit of lights on. Out of curiosity, what kind of projector do you use, how many lumens, and if you know offhand, how does it compare with the epson 6100? If we go with projector there is a good chance we will be making our own 90" screen (my dad is really good at building stuff and I can get him the recipe online) or else buying a 92" locally.

YOyoYOhowsDAjello · Feb 7, 2009

No problem TidusZ. I've been meaning to take some viewing angle pictures for a while.

My general rule of thumb for ambient lighting is that if it's light enough to read a book in the room, it's too bright to be using the projector. I did take those pictures in the late afternoon with the sun fully out still. I have western facing windows in my apartment, so it would have been incredibly bright in the room without the blackout curtains.
You can see the light peeking through from the curtains in this shot
http://pics.bbzzdd.com/users/Y...sDAjello/View5Dark.JPG
Not only did I have to get curtains specifically designed to do this, but I nailed the edges of the curtains to the window frames along the edges and put a cardboard strip in place above them to keep light from coming out the top of the mounting rail that they're on. They seal up to one another with a magnetic strip to keep them tightly closed.

In my old place since there were so many windows, I ended up putting cardboard in the windows to keep the light out. Not the prettiest thing, but it does the job as well. Certainly not as convenient to put in and out though

I honestly have not seen the newest projectors with their increased light output and contrast ratings. I've seen some high end projectors from the last few generations, but not in a compromised ambient lighting situation.
I'm using a Panasonic AE900U.
http://www.projectorcentral.co...nic_Home-PT-AE900U.htm
Max lumen output according to that is 1100 with a calibrated rating of somewhere between "200 and 650" according to their review.
http://www.projectorcentral.com/panasonic_ae900.htm
I have it calibrated the best I can using Digital Video Essentials on high lamp mode for a dark room. I honestly don't know what the lumen output of it based on the calibration I've given it.

I recently brought it to a friend's house in Milwaukee to do a Star Wars marathon and there were ambient light issues. I kicked it into "vibrant" mode and upped the brightness to compensate until the sun went down, but it was still no match for the power of the sun with the covering up job we managed with available materials. Once the sun went down and I could kick it into the calibrated mode, everyone noticed how much better it looked.

Projectors are brighter now, but there's always a limit to what they're going to be able to do. The darkest black you can get from a front projection setup is the color of your screen. Projectors can only add light, not take it away. If you really want deep blacks, your screen has to be black to start with, which means a dark room.

My projector is only 720p and has a few issues with it (slight bulb flickering problem and some vertical banding) so I know it's not in the best shape. I am looking to replace it and I'd probably end up going with another Panasonic. I'm hoping that I can hold out until the generation after this current one comes out. AE4000u? I hope that the next generation of Panasonic projectors has a closed light path so I can not have to deal with dust blobs. I had to do that with my old Infocus 4805 and that wasn't fun at all.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=556431

For as much crap as I've dealt with using projectors, I wouldn't go back to a traditional display. That said, it is some work to get things right and you should go into it knowing that you'll run into things that you just didn't have to worry about with a traditional display.

sivart · Feb 7, 2009

viewing angles aren't really an issue with front projection. They have as good of a viewing angle as a tube TV if not better.

Mine works just fine, but then again, I've got a dedicated room with no windows

So I can watch anytime of the day without any light issues.

Having the screen up that high would bother me. Not to mention you would have to find a projector with little or no throw angle. My lens is about 8" from my ceiling and over a 14' throw, it puts the top of my image about 26" off the ceiling (or 18" below the center of my lens). I guess I could aim it higher and then use keystone correction, but that is just making my nice HD pixels non-square.

TidusZ · Feb 8, 2009

Originally posted by: YOyoYOhowsDAjello
The darkest black you can get from a front projection setup is the color of your screen. Projectors can only add light, not take it away. If you really want deep blacks, your screen has to be black to start with, which means a dark room.

Wow.. To be completely honest, I never thought of this, and now I feel a bit silly for thinking that a projector would somehow black out portions of the screen. It made sense before you made me think about it.

At this point, I'm really psyched about a projector setup, so I'm gonna try hard to get my parents on board. I know it would work out a lot better than a 50" plasma + angled mount, I just have to convince them that we can fix the lighting issues (which we can) and we can make a good screen. The money is in their hands so I just gotta reason with them and do all I can. My parents aren't that old (46 yrs each) and they do home improvement stuff all the time, so it's not unreasonable that they would do this kind of thing, but I think their main concern is the light issue.

Tomorrow afternoon I'm gonna close the curtains, the wood doors that seperate that room from the diningroom/kitchen, and see how dark it is (maybe try to read a book, hehe). I imagine that we're gonna have to majorly overhaul our curtains, even though my mom got them for the purpose of blocking light for a tv. They are okay but not the best.

Yoyo, you have been very helpful and kind, best poster I've met on here so far along with Idontcare. I'll keep you and everyone else updated and perhaps throw up a photo of the room tomorrow with the lighting as good as I can.

edit: oh also, I originally said 77" screen size but I did some remeasuring, we can do 90" and it will be perfect.

YOyoYOhowsDAjello · Feb 8, 2009

It took me a while before I figured out that saying "the darkest black you could get was the screen color" was a good way of demonstrating how important ambient light can be. I believe I even had my first projector for a while before I really thought about it that way.

If you like projects, you might want to just pick up some blackout cloth and sewing a layer of that on back of the existing curtains to block out all the light. Screen material and window treatments all from one magical fabric

(There are other DIY screen options in the AVSforum link of my own screen project thread btw)
http://forums.anandtech.com/me...=y&keyword1=diy+screen

I don't know if it would work in your case, but back when I was considering replacing my 36" Sony WEGA with my first projector, my gf at the time agreed to go see one set up at a AV specialty store. The agreement was something along the lines of "Ok, we can do it if I agree with you that it's awesome". Mission accomplished.

If they go out and see some and aren't impressed, grab one of those Pioneer plasmas and be happy.

I'm glad to help out with the projector info. I did a lot of research on my own when I decided to go this route and it was very helpful to get advice from a variety of sources. Do keep us updated

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Few questions about Projectors

TidusZ

Golden Member

sdifox

No Lifer

TidusZ

Golden Member

vshah

Lifer

YOyoYOhowsDAjello

Moderator<br>A/V & Home Theater<br>Elite member

vshah

Lifer

sdifox

No Lifer

YOyoYOhowsDAjello

Moderator<br>A/V & Home Theater<br>Elite member

YOyoYOhowsDAjello

Moderator<br>A/V & Home Theater<br>Elite member

TidusZ

Golden Member

YOyoYOhowsDAjello

Moderator<br>A/V & Home Theater<br>Elite member

sivart

Golden Member

TidusZ

Golden Member

YOyoYOhowsDAjello

Moderator<br>A/V & Home Theater<br>Elite member

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