fellow audiophiles: what speakers to match? also, was it a good deal or no?

[jaqie]

also, on a "bang for the buck" how would you rate my recent purchase? Keep in mind I don't listen to stuff loud, but just like most other audiophiles, I get the stuff for the quality, so authentic reproduction at lower volumes is what I am after. I am also after *BUDGET* as I am disabled and must live on disability, a very fixed and very meager income. The primary use is to use this system while sitting close to the speakers while using my PC which I use for everything from gaming to home theatre to music to just plain old plinking around.

I recently acquired a Sony STR-DE425 home theatre headunit and speakers used for $150 in 3 monthly payments from my roommate I just moved in with. It came with two main speakers that are Sony SS-U4033s. Anyone that has known the industry for a while will tell you that sony's recent stuff *ahem* is not up to the quality of the stuff they made back in the day... but that is when this stuff was designed.

The headunit is an older digital amp, from what I gather it is type AB, it is discrete amps but I do not know if they are MOSFET or not. It has 100W each channel for main and center channels, and 50w each channel for the rear channels at 8 ohms and 0.8% THD. I suspect this to be RMS but am unable to find any data to confirm this. The speakers have a mylar (I think) cone 1 inch tweeter, two inch paper cone midrange, and an 8 inch woofer with rubber surround. The speakers have no bandpass port/hole, so they sound rather nice compared to newer bandpass/ported crap. They are 140W max per channel. The amp has no powered subwoofer out, and it is rather plainly evident that this was designed to be run subless - its frequency response is pretty good down to the 45Hz range, then drops off without a sub.

The front and center speakers are the crap point, they are single speaker 4 inch cones and I want to replace them as soon as possible... but I am at a loss what would be a good match for this because I am not aware whether the center and rear channels have a built in high-pass filter for those speakers, so I have no idea if some quality 2 way bookshelf speakers of the appropriate power range will be a good match for these (for the price!!) seriously good old school 3 ways I have.


Thanks tons for reading, and for any constructive advice!

 

[sdifox]

audiophile and Sony rarely mix.

 

[jaqie]

Yes, nowadays that is quite true. I would guess you haven't been around that long? Back in the 60s and 70s sony made some competition quality stuff. I kinda alluded to that in my post. I also said I am on a very tight budget, this is a three month payoff investment for me.

 

[sdifox]

Yes, nowadays that is quite true. I would guess you haven't been around that long? Back in the 60s and 70s sony made some competition quality stuff. I kinda alluded to that in my post. I also said I am on a very tight budget, this is a three month payoff investment for me.

60s and 70s are a long time ago. I am more interested in saving up and buying good stuff. Audio gears (well, at least speakers and amps) last a long time so I rather wait than buy crap.

 

[jaqie]

*sigh*

I guess you missed *again* where I was speaking of the parts I have having been designed back during that era before sony turned into what they are now.

Yes, they do last a long time, which is part of my point. Sometimes vintage is much better than current stuff, especially when price is a concern. I find it so odd how you say one thing and then say something that completely destroys what you were saying just a few words back.

 

[sdifox]

*sigh*

I guess you missed *again* where I was speaking of the parts I have having been designed back during that era before sony turned into what they are now.

Yes, they do last a long time, which is part of my point. Sometimes vintage is much better than current stuff, especially when price is a concern. I find it so odd how you say one thing and then say something that completely destroys what you were saying just a few words back.

What has your 1998 SS-U4033 and STR-DE425 got to do with 60s or 70s gear from Sony?

 

[vshah]

did you mean to say "rear and center speakers are the crap point?"

i assume the main's you say you like will be used for your fronts...


also, i'd say its a decent deal for the amount of stuff you got, but for around ~350 you could probably get a system that would be more than 2x better

 

[jaqie]

did you mean to say "rear and center speakers are the crap point?"
i assume the main's you say you like will be used for your fronts...
also, i'd say its a decent deal for the amount of stuff you got, but for around ~350 you could probably get a system that would be more than 2x better

Yes, main is front to me, sorry my own personal terminology.
And yeah... obviously for over 2x the cost I can get something over 2x better

I would like to have another $200 to dump into this, but even this $150 was really more than I can afford to be honest. I was going mad listening to some cheap dell 2.0s I had bought from a resale shop to make do since moving (moved on an airplane, no way to take my stuff with me, long story)

 

[vshah]

question: what sources will you be using with this? is it just the computer?

 

[jaqie]

The radio that is built in, also my computer which is a gigabyte GA-EP43-DS3L which has the ALC888 chip which is capable of 7.1 output at 24 bit@192KHz, and has a rather clean analog output along with SP/DIF TOSLINK and RCA outs. I also plan on playing really old console games hooked to it, but that's hardly requiring such good equipment.

Eventually I want to get a better sound card, but that's on the long list of "would be nice if I could afford" because this alc888 is much better than most think it is.

 

[vshah]

anything wrong with just sticking with 2.0 with the two mains you have?

i would do that, then when you have some more to spend, get new mains and move the current ones to the rear.

 

[jaqie]

Don't really have the space for four large speakers, these are rather large. I also would like surround for gaming. If I had more space to spare, I would definitely do that, but it's at a premium.

I really wish I knew if the center and rear channels had a high pass on them, but with these craptastic speakers I have for those channels I can't really tell. For this particular situation a high pass would be advantageous because then I could run some less expensive 2 way bookshelf speakers with just a tweeter and mid/woofer, and I don't really want to get into getting and setting up a post-amp high pass filter for speakers... blech, maybe I can find some decent 2 ways with a high pass built in or something, but if my amp has that for the center and rear channels then that'd be wasted money...

Here's where having some of my old equipment hanging around to test would really come in handy.

 

[roguerower]

I would listen to what vshah is saying. I know that right now you want to go out and get an other pair of speakers to complete your system but it might be better to keep your basic 2.0 system and then build on it when you have the money to afford some quality components.

If you don't want to wait, I think newegg was selling a pair of Polk Monitor 30s for $80 or so.

Where do you live? I have an Onkyo 6.1 HTIB system that I'm going to be selling very soon.

 

[jaqie]

I am listening... I was planning on using it in 2.0 as is until I have another $120 or $150 for center and two satellites so I could get something half decent, but I'm really hoping I can get bookshelf 2 ways for this instead of another full set, especially since the amp for the satellites is 50w per channel. I really want something that will work well with these current speakers too.

I live near Eugene, Oregon - south of Portland.

 

[slashbinslashbash]

I would just be happy with what you've got, for now. That receiver doesn't have anything but 2.0 analog inputs anyway. There is no way to hook up your 7.1-capable sound card, short of getting a few more stereo receivers. I would use your two mains for stereo, and maybe run the wires to the rear pair in the bathroom as the "B" pair of speakers to listen to in the shower.

Surround sound is overrated. I bought my first Dolby Pro Logic receiver and 5.1 JBL setup when I was 16 years old (1996). I was super excited at the time (and I still have all those original speakers and components) but it lost its luster along the way. Nowadays I've got 2.1 (Onkyo TX-SR704 THX DD receiver, Polk Audio R40 floorstanding speakers, JBL sub) in the living room (renting a house, don't feel like running all the cables to set up 5.1) and 2.0 (Technics SA-DX1040 DD receiver, Atlantic Technology 271LR THX bookshelf speakers) in my office for listening to music and other computer audio. Whenever I buy a house with a dedicated media room, I will set up a full-on surround sound system along with a projector. At the moment, I rarely watch movies, and my wife only watches stuff that wouldn't benefit from surround sound anyways.

So in other words... stop kidding yourself and just enjoy what you've got. A mid to late 90's (i.e., not "vintage") Sony receiver and bundled speakers (Sony has NEVER made good speakers!) are never going to give you "audiophile" quality sound. The best they will come to that is listening in 2.0 configuration.... that way, the amp isn't stressed, and you're only using the best speakers. You won't be getting POOR quality sound... Sony is at least competent. The receiver is good enough for 2.0, and possibly for pseudo-5.1 (although it is all analog, matrixed, Dolby Pro Logic -- no way to get real 5.1 Dolby Digital or DTS to work), but those speakers are the weakest link.

 

[shortylickens]

audiophile and Sony rarely mix.

Neither do audiophile and "bang for the buck".

 

[jaqie]

I would just be happy with what you've got, for now. That receiver doesn't have anything but 2.0 analog inputs anyway. There is no way to hook up your 7.1-capable sound card, short of getting a few more stereo receivers. I would use your two mains for stereo, and maybe run the wires to the rear pair in the bathroom as the "B" pair of speakers to listen to in the shower.

I don't know where you got your information, but it's flat wrong.


I don't listen while in the shower, either.

Surround sound is overrated. I bought my first Dolby Pro Logic receiver and 5.1 JBL setup when I was 16 years old (1996). I was super excited at the time (and I still have all those original speakers and components) but it lost its luster along the way. Nowadays I've got 2.1 (Onkyo TX-SR704 THX DD receiver, Polk Audio R40 floorstanding speakers, JBL sub) in the living room (renting a house, don't feel like running all the cables to set up 5.1) and 2.0 (Technics SA-DX1040 DD receiver, Atlantic Technology 271LR THX bookshelf speakers) in my office for listening to music and other computer audio. Whenever I buy a house with a dedicated media room, I will set up a full-on surround sound system along with a projector. At the moment, I rarely watch movies, and my wife only watches stuff that wouldn't benefit from surround sound anyways.

Good for you, nice to know all of these irrelevant details about your life, since that has nothing to do with why I want surround. I have had surround working in games and in certain games (FPS and such) it makes a *HUGE* difference. Maybe you don't game, maybe you didn't know how to set it up.

So in other words... stop kidding yourself and just enjoy what you've got. A mid to late 90's (i.e., not "vintage") Sony receiver and bundled speakers (Sony has NEVER made good speakers!) are never going to give you "audiophile" quality sound.

First off, according to my information, this reciever and speakers were not designed in the "late 90s", secondly, Your **OPINION** of the brand does not equate to fact. Facts are for the money, and for what resources I have, this produces much better quality then the crap people who don't care about sound (and many who do but don't know what discrete amps are for example) get. Sure, I would love to have some carver (sunfire) amps and such, but when you live on $690 a month and half of that is spent on pills to keep you alive you kind of have to cut back somewhere.

The best they will come to that is listening in 2.0 configuration.... that way, the amp isn't stressed, and you're only using the best speakers. You won't be getting POOR quality sound... Sony is at least competent. The receiver is good enough for 2.0, and possibly for pseudo-5.1 (although it is all analog, matrixed, Dolby Pro Logic -- no way to get real 5.1 Dolby Digital or DTS to work), but those speakers are the weakest link.

I went through this already, even took a picture for you - it has actual analog 6ch in. The amp won't be "stressed" running 5ch at low volumes, and neither will these speakers. This amp can do 6ch completely native (amping the 5ch and passing the sub channel to an external powered sub if I ever wish to get one), letting my sound card do the D/A conversion, or if I want getting a quality firewire external device to sit on top of it and do the D/A conversion so that the EFI/RFI of the computer is not an issue.

As for dolby digital/DTS receivers, I have had a few, and I much prefer the output of the systems when a quality sound card does the D/A conversion for the amp.

I would say to you, quit deluding yourself into thinking that only people who can afford to shell out four figures or more love good audio, and know a thing or two about it.

Also, one last little detail: Please note that I never said this system was audiophile quality. I know it isn't quite there. I'm making do.

 

[jaqie]

Neither do audiophile and "bang for the buck".

Sad but true. Unfortunately some people cannot afford luxuries and must make do somehow.

 

[Deleted member 4644]

audiophile and Sony rarely mix.

Some of Sony's stuff from the 1990s is quite good. My mom has some SS- speakers that rival my Polk Monitor 60s.

I believe your speakers are one generation newer than my moms.

For 150, It sounds like you got a very reasonable deal.

I'm sure they sound very good compared to your average $150 investment in Logitech crap with 2" drivers.

 

[jaqie]

Some of Sony's stuff from the 1990s is quite good. My mom has some SS- speakers that rival my Polk Monitor 60s.

I believe your speakers are one generation newer than my moms.

For 150, It sounds like you got a very reasonable deal.

I'm sure they sound very good compared to your average $150 investment in Logitech crap with 2" drivers.

Yes, some of the old SS series are very good, seems very few people know that though.

And yes, "computer 5.1 speakers" grate my ears like wolverine carving glass.

Thanks

 

[slashbinslashbash]

Ok, my apologies, I stand corrected. I looked at the manual for the STR-DE425 but only went so far as the "Audio Component Hookups" and "Speaker System Hookups" sections, which only showed 2 channels. I didn't realize that the audio/video inputs were a separate section, for some reason located after the speaker hookup section. I will note that the manual is copyright (c) 1998 Sony Corporation. I would assume that that reflects the year that the receiver was designed and manufactured, plus or minus a year.

I have never spent four figures on an audio system. I know full well that it's possible to be a budget audiophile. I paid $150 for my Atlantic Technology speakers (L,R and C -- the Center is not hooked up) at a pawnshop. I paid half price for my Onkyo receiver, and $100 for my Technics. I buy almost all of my gear used, for half price or less. When I buy new, it is on clearance. I never claimed you had to spend a whole lot more money to get good stuff.

The Polk bookshelf speakers that were mentioned earlier would be a big step up from your Sonys (in all but the sub-80Hz region), and you could get 3 pairs of them for a perfectly matched surround setup for <$250. I used to have a full set of cheap Polks (R50 fronts, R10 surrounds, and CSi25) that I paid about $200 for the whole shebang when Fry's had them on sale for 50% off. They sounded perfectly adequate, particularly when my Onkyo receiver's microphone-based setup routine applied its corrections in the room where they were set up. In fact, I would wager that they sounded measurably better than $10k+ systems of 10 years earlier, which did not have the capability to do room corrections.

Speakers only give flat response in anechoic chambers... any real-life room will throw stuff way out of whack. The room corrections applied today by most receivers mean a BIG step up in audio fidelity, no matter what speakers you're working with. In the olden days you could do the same thing with a lot of patience, a test record or test tone generator, an SPL meter, and a big graphic equalizer. Once surround-sound hit, that kind of thing mostly went out the door (I don't know that I've seen any 5-channel EQ's -- although I suppose 3 2-channel EQ's could work just as well). Now that we've got ridiculously powerful DSP in our receivers, we can put a mic in the room and let the EQ be set automatically, and with greater precision than most humans could hope to achieve.

Moving on.... When I talk about stressing the amp... not many amps, especially consumer-grade receivers, are can reach their rated output on all channels at once. It's like the power supply in a computer. You've got the 2 12v rails and one 5v rail, and the 12v rails are rated at 200W each, plus the 5v rail rated at 100 watts, but the whole thing can't output those levels (total 500W) at once because those rails are all drawing their power from a weaker upstream source to begin with. If you were just testing one of the 12v channels, sure, it would hit 200W -- maybe higher. But all rails at once -- lower than rated. It's the same way with receivers. The back-end power supply usually just isn't beefy enough to handle all those channels running at once. Even the expensive ones, like my Onkyo -- they overstate their ratings by a decent amount. The reason why I like Technics receivers (too bad they're not made any more) is that several models have been shown to actually be under-rated. I still have a copy of Consumer Reports that shows my Technics SA-GX690 (the first receiver I bought in high school), rated at 100Wx4, showed *over* 100W per channel with all channels loaded, and over 150W with just one channel loaded. The Technics receivers in that comparison were the only ones to show power over their rated levels. My current SA-DX1040 in my office has also been tested at above the rated 100WPC.

As an example, here is a test of the Onkyo TX-SR605. It is rated at 90WPC, but when all 7 channels were driven, could only reach 80WPC. As a comparison, the Sony STR-DG910, which was a reasonably direct competitor to the Onkyo 605 (both MSRP at $500 and both released in 2007), had these test results. The Sony 910 is rated at 100WPC. With 5 channels driven, it output a paltry 30WPC, and with only 1 channel driven at 8 ohms, it managed 84W.... still well below the rated 100W!

Well, to wrap it up, I would say that you did get a good deal out of this for $150. A functioning 5-channel receiver and 5 functioning speakers are worth something, and it's hard to imagine getting them for much cheaper. Also it appears that your front L/R speakers may be a little better than I thought they were. However, as Sonys, they probably were not marketed to the discerning listener. And I would much rather have cheap 2-ways than cheap 3-ways. 3-ways look better to the eye (3 has to be better than 2, right?) but the crossovers are much harder to design and match to the drivers properly. Plus, 3-ways usually are pretty big across the front baffle, which has some negative effects on the higher frequencies. I would not buy a 3-way design unless it was pretty high-end stuff. Still, I would take some convincing before buying them. All of the speakers I've ever owned have been 2-ways (although some have more than 1 woofer -- and of course, this is disregarding separate subwoofers) and I have never found anything missing. Regardless, I think it would be difficult to find speakers that would voice-match well to your Sonys, unless you could find some of the exact same model (or at least in the same model line, with the same tweeters). It could happen if you scout Craigslist enough.

Oh: and I never used to listen in the shower, until my sister was going to throw away some cheap Aiwa speakers from her old bookshelf system. A couple of L-brackets and some speaker wire later, and I had music in my shower every day. I rather liked it, and I'm definitely going to do it again whenever I settle down somewhere and buy a house. My larger point from the shower example is that the crappy surround speakers wouldn't make bad extension/2nd room speakers for the living room, bathroom, patio etc. Somewhere where you wouldn't really care how good they sounded or how loud they could play.... just for background music while you're doing other things.

 

[jaqie]

Thanks for a sane, thought out post.

Most of the things you said I actually already knew, and a few days ago talked about just such a subject with one of my best friends. That is also why I said in my first post that I specifically do not listen at high volumes - I've yet to take this amp beyond "2" on "10" and I doubt I'll ever get over "5". As you can see, I had already accounted for such.
I also had already specifically said I really would like 2 way speakers for the satellites if possible - and that these current rears were part of the deal I got... I said I am not able to house 4 full floor speakers like these two, but I am definitely not against going with a full set of bookshelf 2 ways. For the record, I agree about two way speakers. The best part? If I do replace them I can sell these sony 3 ways for $30+.