Federal Reserve Refuses to disclose where the $2 TRILLION in loans have gone.

[Capitalizt]

Trillions in public bailouts by the government/fed, and now a few trillion more in stealth "loans" that we aren't allowed to know about. I have a feeling toilet paper will be worth more than the dollar when this is all over.

http://bloomberg.com/apps/news...px7XNLnZZlc&refer=home

 

[brencat]

Because if we knew which banks got loans in exchange for their worthless collateral, Americans would lose faith in their gov't and short sellers would take a caning to the institutions that got the loans. And then...things would get really ugly. Oh wait...

 

[Rangoric]

Originally posted by: brencat
Because if we knew which banks got loans in exchange for their worthless collateral, Americans would lose faith in their gov't and short sellers would take a caning to the institutions that got the loans. And then...things would get really ugly. Oh wait...

Exactly, when you have people that can make a profit off another company going down the tubes, and people that think they need access to all their money (or that it won't be there) at the slightest drop of a hat, some people think it'd be good to tell people which banks might fail if they lose money?

It would turn the list of banks that got the loans into banks that are closing REAL fast.

 

[DealMonkey]

They need to be hauled into Congress in a secret session and forced to divulge where the cash is going. Oversight is critical, as we've been reminded every single day of the Bush Administration, and I feel like this bailout effort is not getting it. As usual.

 

[TheDoc9]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey
They need to be hauled into Congress in a secret session and forced to divulge where the cash is going. Oversight is critical, as we've been reminded every single day of the Bush Administration, and I feel like this bailout effort is not getting it. As usual.

:thumbsup:


The banks might close if we all knew, but this situation shouldn't have been created in the first place. Fortunately, these practices may have gone too far this time and it might actually lead to major changes in our financial system for the better. Who knows, the Fed itself might even be in trouble.

 

[JS80]

The Fed is a private organization. Why would they divulge their detailed balance sheet like that?

 

[StageLeft]

Something seems wrong here.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: JS80
The Fed is a private organization.

Why would they divulge their detailed balance sheet like that?

Why do you support American taxpayer money being shielded from the taxpayer?

 

[IceBergSLiM]

Originally posted by: JS80
The Fed is a private organization. Why would they divulge their detailed balance sheet like that?

They are spending tax payer dollars that they begged congress for and promised transparency throughout. So basically they cheat lie and steal like the rest of wall street.

 

[IceBergSLiM]

FYI ii posted this 2 days ago in this thread http://forums.anandtech.com/me...=2249389&enterthread=y

 

[Eeezee]

Originally posted by: JS80
The Fed is a private organization. Why would they divulge their detailed balance sheet like that?

They're playing with PUBLIC money right now, otherwise you'd be correct

 

[SP33Demon]

Any updates to this yet? I still can't believe the Fed doesn't have to display transparency for two trillion dollars in loans but companies who got TARP do. Hopefully Bloomberg wins that suit against the Fed using the Freedom of Information Act.

 

[Jaskalas]

What is fascinating about this is that it?s twice the value of the much debated and fought over ?stimulus? bill, yet no one cares.

 

[RichardE]

inverted totalitarianism coupled with coporationism gives us a Fascist Democracy. We are in the midst of a revolution, and we are on the wrong side :laugh:

Yes yes, I know, fear mongering blah blah blah. Of course for anyone who tries to compare the Fascism of today to the facism of the 30's will obviously find them not similar at all. There is no "secret" room of people conspiring to do this of course, it is just the collimation of one extreme finally playing itself out. That of pure or attempted pure capitalism. The problem with pure capitalism was of course, it depending on people being honest. People have always known that people with money are and never cab be honest. (Some of the reason for the previous hate for the jews.) Even Plato said the people who best hold money are the best at stealing it.

So now we will emerge as a socialist state, or we will emerge as a fascist corporate state. I'm leaning towards the latter. Do you think before the rise of corporate America the American people would have given the equilavent to 20% of the GDP in a non-emergency time over a few weeks with no oversight at all? Once people begin to learn that Fascism does not have to involve camps, and systemic eradication of certain people (that is called Nazism), they will realize Facism is nothing more than when the Corporations become more powerful than the government. I wonder if we have already reached that point though.

 

[SMOGZINN]

Originally posted by: RichardE
inverted totalitarianism coupled with coporationism gives us a Fascist Democracy. We are in the midst of a revolution, and we are on the wrong side :laugh:

Yes yes, I know, fear mongering blah blah blah. Of course for anyone who tries to compare the Fascism of today to the facism of the 30's will obviously find them not similar at all. There is no "secret" room of people conspiring to do this of course, it is just the collimation of one extreme finally playing itself out. That of pure or attempted pure capitalism. The problem with pure capitalism was of course, it depending on people being honest. People have always known that people with money are and never cab be honest. (Some of the reason for the previous hate for the jews.) Even Plato said the people who best hold money are the best at stealing it.

So now we will emerge as a socialist state, or we will emerge as a fascist corporate state. I'm leaning towards the latter. Do you think before the rise of corporate America the American people would have given the equilavent to 20% of the GDP in a non-emergency time over a few weeks with no oversight at all? Once people begin to learn that Fascism does not have to involve camps, and systemic eradication of certain people (that is called Nazism), they will realize Facism is nothing more than when the Corporations become more powerful than the government. I wonder if we have already reached that point though.

So close yet so far. Socialism is what is leading us to fascism, not capitalism.
There is no room in the capitalist system for companies to steal trillions of dollars from the public. That can only occur when government hands it over to them in socialist idealism.
In a true capitalist state the government would have shrugged it's shoulders at the large corporations and told them they have to dig their own way out of this mess.
The economy would be in shambles, but it would rebuild and all our freedoms would still be in place.

 

[RichardE]

Originally posted by: SMOGZINN

Originally posted by: RichardE
inverted totalitarianism coupled with coporationism gives us a Fascist Democracy. We are in the midst of a revolution, and we are on the wrong side :laugh:

Yes yes, I know, fear mongering blah blah blah. Of course for anyone who tries to compare the Fascism of today to the facism of the 30's will obviously find them not similar at all. There is no "secret" room of people conspiring to do this of course, it is just the collimation of one extreme finally playing itself out. That of pure or attempted pure capitalism. The problem with pure capitalism was of course, it depending on people being honest. People have always known that people with money are and never cab be honest. (Some of the reason for the previous hate for the jews.) Even Plato said the people who best hold money are the best at stealing it.

So now we will emerge as a socialist state, or we will emerge as a fascist corporate state. I'm leaning towards the latter. Do you think before the rise of corporate America the American people would have given the equilavent to 20% of the GDP in a non-emergency time over a few weeks with no oversight at all? Once people begin to learn that Fascism does not have to involve camps, and systemic eradication of certain people (that is called Nazism), they will realize Facism is nothing more than when the Corporations become more powerful than the government. I wonder if we have already reached that point though.

So close yet so far. Socialism is what is leading us to fascism, not capitalism.
There is no room in the capitalist system for companies to steal trillions of dollars from the public. That can only occur when government hands it over to them in socialist idealism.
In a true capitalist state the government would have shrugged it's shoulders at the large corporations and told them they have to dig their own way out of this mess.
The economy would be in shambles, but it would rebuild and all our freedoms would still be in place.

You mistake socialist doctrine for corporate power. Socialism is the government control of the corporations, not the other way around which is fascism. That is why I said we were at a crossroads, if the government grows the balls and keeps a stake in these corporations or dictates terms (as Obama is trying to do maybe?) we will emerge a socialist state. If not, we will emerge a fascist state. In the end though, the power of the corporations made this possible (fascist democracy) as well as the apathy of the voters (Key principle behind inverted totalitarianism) combined with the ability for the voter to vote for what is best for them instead of the state. It is interesting really, since this is truly nothing we have ever seen before, it is like watching the birth of a new political system. One of the major differences though, is any facist state will not be one of no freedoms. Corporations have cheaper labour available overseas. In essence we will be owned by the corporations but also pampered by them, they will not have to deal with the public directly, but can use lobbyist, charities, ect ect to keep the politicians closer to them than to the voters.

I am getting off topic though. As to your point, socialist ideals did not make this possible, the increase is corporate power made this possible. The ability of a corporation to go to a politician and say "If you don't vote for this I'm going to cut 25000 American jobs and you will have to answer to them" As you can see, it is not one specific thing that is causing this but a grand web of different ideals finally coming home to roost. Will be interesting to see where it goes.

I should add, in this edit, that your freedoms will still be in place of course. Fascism does not necessarily mean totalitarianism, and totalitarianism does not necessarily mean a restriction of freedoms. As I said, this brand of Fascism is different because the corporations do not need cheap labor in there home country, so they do not need to control the populace of there "home country". Not only that, it is in there best interest to have a stable home country in order to breed innovation for there companies (3rd would illiterate peasants don't innovate very well). You will still have your freedoms, actually nothing in your day to day life will change at all, the only thing you will notice is an entry in wiki in 50 years describing the change of the political system during this decade.

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: SMOGZINN
So close yet so far. Socialism is what is leading us to fascism, not capitalism.
There is no room in the capitalist system for companies to steal trillions of dollars from the public. That can only occur when government hands it over to them in socialist idealism.
In a true capitalist state the government would have shrugged it's shoulders at the large corporations and told them they have to dig their own way out of this mess.
The economy would be in shambles, but it would rebuild and all our freedoms would still be in place.

Just keep in mind that the idea of our money being stolen and/or wasted by the government in the form of taxes is 100% subjective. Also remember that the idea here is to preserve happiness and eliminate suffering. There is more than one way to do that and what makes one person happy does not necessarily make someone else happy.

 

[LegendKiller]

Originally posted by: SMOGZINN

Originally posted by: RichardE
inverted totalitarianism coupled with coporationism gives us a Fascist Democracy. We are in the midst of a revolution, and we are on the wrong side :laugh:

Yes yes, I know, fear mongering blah blah blah. Of course for anyone who tries to compare the Fascism of today to the facism of the 30's will obviously find them not similar at all. There is no "secret" room of people conspiring to do this of course, it is just the collimation of one extreme finally playing itself out. That of pure or attempted pure capitalism. The problem with pure capitalism was of course, it depending on people being honest. People have always known that people with money are and never cab be honest. (Some of the reason for the previous hate for the jews.) Even Plato said the people who best hold money are the best at stealing it.

So now we will emerge as a socialist state, or we will emerge as a fascist corporate state. I'm leaning towards the latter. Do you think before the rise of corporate America the American people would have given the equilavent to 20% of the GDP in a non-emergency time over a few weeks with no oversight at all? Once people begin to learn that Fascism does not have to involve camps, and systemic eradication of certain people (that is called Nazism), they will realize Facism is nothing more than when the Corporations become more powerful than the government. I wonder if we have already reached that point though.

So close yet so far. Socialism is what is leading us to fascism, not capitalism.
There is no room in the capitalist system for companies to steal trillions of dollars from the public. That can only occur when government hands it over to them in socialist idealism.
In a true capitalist state the government would have shrugged it's shoulders at the large corporations and told them they have to dig their own way out of this mess.
The economy would be in shambles, but it would rebuild and all our freedoms would still be in place.

So, essentially, you're just talking up chaos. Great choice.

I think we've already found out, in the past, that unfettered markets aren't an option. Those with capital abuse those without it to a much higher extent than the current system. Nefarious people will get away with anything possible before they are caught "by the market", because it is in there best interest to hide as much as possible for as long as possible, to accumulate as much wealth as possible. Since the greedy do not care about reputations, they will get away with it. Without regulations they won't be breaking laws, therefore you're talking about what type of justice to correct the inequities? Vigilante? Then you have even more chaos.

I love how libertopians think that chaos makes all of the world's problems go away. As if people will suddenly decide to never be evil in a "free market" and not abuse the system even more. As if the bubble of "free markets" aren't under the influence of greed and fear and irrationality, as if the market is perfectly efficient at divining the truth and distilling it down into action.

What a bunch of ignorant, vacuum filled, utopion, human-psyche ignoring utter fucking bullshit.

 

[SMOGZINN]

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: SMOGZINN

Originally posted by: RichardE
inverted totalitarianism coupled with coporationism gives us a Fascist Democracy. We are in the midst of a revolution, and we are on the wrong side :laugh:

Yes yes, I know, fear mongering blah blah blah. Of course for anyone who tries to compare the Fascism of today to the facism of the 30's will obviously find them not similar at all. There is no "secret" room of people conspiring to do this of course, it is just the collimation of one extreme finally playing itself out. That of pure or attempted pure capitalism. The problem with pure capitalism was of course, it depending on people being honest. People have always known that people with money are and never cab be honest. (Some of the reason for the previous hate for the jews.) Even Plato said the people who best hold money are the best at stealing it.

So now we will emerge as a socialist state, or we will emerge as a fascist corporate state. I'm leaning towards the latter. Do you think before the rise of corporate America the American people would have given the equilavent to 20% of the GDP in a non-emergency time over a few weeks with no oversight at all? Once people begin to learn that Fascism does not have to involve camps, and systemic eradication of certain people (that is called Nazism), they will realize Facism is nothing more than when the Corporations become more powerful than the government. I wonder if we have already reached that point though.

So close yet so far. Socialism is what is leading us to fascism, not capitalism.
There is no room in the capitalist system for companies to steal trillions of dollars from the public. That can only occur when government hands it over to them in socialist idealism.
In a true capitalist state the government would have shrugged it's shoulders at the large corporations and told them they have to dig their own way out of this mess.
The economy would be in shambles, but it would rebuild and all our freedoms would still be in place.

So, essentially, you're just talking up chaos. Great choice.

I think we've already found out, in the past, that unfettered markets aren't an option. Those with capital abuse those without it to a much higher extent than the current system. Nefarious people will get away with anything possible before they are caught "by the market", because it is in there best interest to hide as much as possible for as long as possible, to accumulate as much wealth as possible. Since the greedy do not care about reputations, they will get away with it. Without regulations they won't be breaking laws, therefore you're talking about what type of justice to correct the inequities? Vigilante? Then you have even more chaos.

I love how libertopians think that chaos makes all of the world's problems go away. As if people will suddenly decide to never be evil in a "free market" and not abuse the system even more. As if the bubble of "free markets" aren't under the influence of greed and fear and irrationality, as if the market is perfectly efficient at divining the truth and distilling it down into action.

What a bunch of ignorant, vacuum filled, utopion, human-psyche ignoring utter fucking bullshit.

The problems don't go away. Nothing will make those problems go away. They existed under fascism, they existed under communism. They are a part of the human condition. Greedy asshats will abuse what ever system you put in place.
They will abuse it until you will not take it anymore and do something about it.
Then they will set up shop under another name and do it again.

Capitalism is an acceptance of that, and Libertarianism is a statement that the problem is not all that serious. The system when left to its own devices will find equilibrium. It is only when we abandon the principles that it runs by does it get seriously broken.

 

[RichardE]

Originally posted by: SMOGZINN

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: SMOGZINN

Originally posted by: RichardE
inverted totalitarianism coupled with coporationism gives us a Fascist Democracy. We are in the midst of a revolution, and we are on the wrong side :laugh:

Yes yes, I know, fear mongering blah blah blah. Of course for anyone who tries to compare the Fascism of today to the facism of the 30's will obviously find them not similar at all. There is no "secret" room of people conspiring to do this of course, it is just the collimation of one extreme finally playing itself out. That of pure or attempted pure capitalism. The problem with pure capitalism was of course, it depending on people being honest. People have always known that people with money are and never cab be honest. (Some of the reason for the previous hate for the jews.) Even Plato said the people who best hold money are the best at stealing it.

So now we will emerge as a socialist state, or we will emerge as a fascist corporate state. I'm leaning towards the latter. Do you think before the rise of corporate America the American people would have given the equilavent to 20% of the GDP in a non-emergency time over a few weeks with no oversight at all? Once people begin to learn that Fascism does not have to involve camps, and systemic eradication of certain people (that is called Nazism), they will realize Facism is nothing more than when the Corporations become more powerful than the government. I wonder if we have already reached that point though.

So close yet so far. Socialism is what is leading us to fascism, not capitalism.
There is no room in the capitalist system for companies to steal trillions of dollars from the public. That can only occur when government hands it over to them in socialist idealism.
In a true capitalist state the government would have shrugged it's shoulders at the large corporations and told them they have to dig their own way out of this mess.
The economy would be in shambles, but it would rebuild and all our freedoms would still be in place.

So, essentially, you're just talking up chaos. Great choice.

I think we've already found out, in the past, that unfettered markets aren't an option. Those with capital abuse those without it to a much higher extent than the current system. Nefarious people will get away with anything possible before they are caught "by the market", because it is in there best interest to hide as much as possible for as long as possible, to accumulate as much wealth as possible. Since the greedy do not care about reputations, they will get away with it. Without regulations they won't be breaking laws, therefore you're talking about what type of justice to correct the inequities? Vigilante? Then you have even more chaos.

I love how libertopians think that chaos makes all of the world's problems go away. As if people will suddenly decide to never be evil in a "free market" and not abuse the system even more. As if the bubble of "free markets" aren't under the influence of greed and fear and irrationality, as if the market is perfectly efficient at divining the truth and distilling it down into action.

What a bunch of ignorant, vacuum filled, utopion, human-psyche ignoring utter fucking bullshit.

The problems don't go away. Nothing will make those problems go away. They existed under fascism, they existed under communism. They are a part of the human condition. Greedy asshats will abuse what ever system you put in place.
They will abuse it until you will not take it anymore and do something about it.
Then they will set up shop under another name and do it again.

Capitalism is an acceptance of that, and Libertarianism is a statement that the problem is not all that serious. The system when left to its own devices will find equilibrium. It is only when we abandon the principles that it runs by does it get seriously broken.

So you base your existence on faith :laugh: Last time we did that we ended up with the middle ages. Either way, You are mixing up different political systems, so I'm not sure you know the true difference between them, or if you even realize there is no *one* system the United States directly incorporates.

 

[LegendKiller]

Originally posted by: SMOGZINN

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: SMOGZINN

Originally posted by: RichardE
inverted totalitarianism coupled with coporationism gives us a Fascist Democracy. We are in the midst of a revolution, and we are on the wrong side :laugh:

Yes yes, I know, fear mongering blah blah blah. Of course for anyone who tries to compare the Fascism of today to the facism of the 30's will obviously find them not similar at all. There is no "secret" room of people conspiring to do this of course, it is just the collimation of one extreme finally playing itself out. That of pure or attempted pure capitalism. The problem with pure capitalism was of course, it depending on people being honest. People have always known that people with money are and never cab be honest. (Some of the reason for the previous hate for the jews.) Even Plato said the people who best hold money are the best at stealing it.

So now we will emerge as a socialist state, or we will emerge as a fascist corporate state. I'm leaning towards the latter. Do you think before the rise of corporate America the American people would have given the equilavent to 20% of the GDP in a non-emergency time over a few weeks with no oversight at all? Once people begin to learn that Fascism does not have to involve camps, and systemic eradication of certain people (that is called Nazism), they will realize Facism is nothing more than when the Corporations become more powerful than the government. I wonder if we have already reached that point though.

So close yet so far. Socialism is what is leading us to fascism, not capitalism.
There is no room in the capitalist system for companies to steal trillions of dollars from the public. That can only occur when government hands it over to them in socialist idealism.
In a true capitalist state the government would have shrugged it's shoulders at the large corporations and told them they have to dig their own way out of this mess.
The economy would be in shambles, but it would rebuild and all our freedoms would still be in place.

So, essentially, you're just talking up chaos. Great choice.

I think we've already found out, in the past, that unfettered markets aren't an option. Those with capital abuse those without it to a much higher extent than the current system. Nefarious people will get away with anything possible before they are caught "by the market", because it is in there best interest to hide as much as possible for as long as possible, to accumulate as much wealth as possible. Since the greedy do not care about reputations, they will get away with it. Without regulations they won't be breaking laws, therefore you're talking about what type of justice to correct the inequities? Vigilante? Then you have even more chaos.

I love how libertopians think that chaos makes all of the world's problems go away. As if people will suddenly decide to never be evil in a "free market" and not abuse the system even more. As if the bubble of "free markets" aren't under the influence of greed and fear and irrationality, as if the market is perfectly efficient at divining the truth and distilling it down into action.

What a bunch of ignorant, vacuum filled, utopion, human-psyche ignoring utter fucking bullshit.

The problems don't go away. Nothing will make those problems go away. They existed under fascism, they existed under communism. They are a part of the human condition. Greedy asshats will abuse what ever system you put in place.
They will abuse it until you will not take it anymore and do something about it.
Then they will set up shop under another name and do it again.

Capitalism is an acceptance of that, and Libertarianism is a statement that the problem is not all that serious. The system when left to its own devices will find equilibrium. It is only when we abandon the principles that it runs by does it get seriously broken.

I agree that it has always and will always exist. However, you can mitigate it, as we have done to a large extent. There's a reason why people invest in this country and it's not because we are under-regulated or over-regulated to the greatest extent, it's for the fact that we are, in most cases, reasonably well regulated.

Capitalism isn't acceptance of it, capitalism is ignoring it for the benefit of those who can afford to ignore it. Libertarianism is the same, except they ignore it because they think that everything will work out and we'll all be happy with chaos (in reality, it's a bullshit theory). A system, left to its own devices, will NOT find equilibrium, it will find an aristrocratic class which can influence the system far more than the current system, as a huge % of wealth will be concentrated even more.

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: SMOGZINN
Capitalism is an acceptance of that, and Libertarianism is a statement that the problem is not all that serious. The system when left to its own devices will find equilibrium. It is only when we abandon the principles that it runs by does it get seriously broken.

I don't believe that market competition alone is a powerful enough control mechanism to sustain that kind of equilibrium AND make most people very happy and satisfied at the same time. It will be successful with some industries, but it will fail in others.

This is why I do not subscribe to Libertarianism. They are too extreme. Instead, I prefer a mixture of government involvement and free market competition. The proportions of the mixture that I prefer varies on a case by case basis. For example, I am totally ok with free market capitalism reigning as king when it comes to Starbucks and the coffee industry. I am not so keen on that idea when it comes to thing like our police force and health care.

 

[Modelworks]

Originally posted by: Jaskalas
What is fascinating about this is that it?s twice the value of the much debated and fought over ?stimulus? bill, yet no one cares.

No one cares because it's only money. Hell, we got plenty of it. Lets print some more !
Oversight ? who needs it. We already know it went to people that didn't deserve it, will blow right through it and ask for more, while the public pays more and more . It's a great day to be an American .

Now excuse me while I go convert my money to gold while it's still worth the trouble.

 

[RichardE]

Originally posted by: Modelworks

Originally posted by: Jaskalas
What is fascinating about this is that it?s twice the value of the much debated and fought over ?stimulus? bill, yet no one cares.

No one cares because it's only money. Hell, we got plenty of it. Lets print some more !
Oversight ? who needs it. We already know it went to people that didn't deserve it, will blow right through it and ask for more, while the public pays more and more . It's a great day to be an American .

Now excuse me while I go convert my money to gold while it's still worth the trouble.

Can't eat gold.

 

[LegendKiller]

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: Modelworks

Originally posted by: Jaskalas
What is fascinating about this is that it?s twice the value of the much debated and fought over ?stimulus? bill, yet no one cares.

No one cares because it's only money. Hell, we got plenty of it. Lets print some more !
Oversight ? who needs it. We already know it went to people that didn't deserve it, will blow right through it and ask for more, while the public pays more and more . It's a great day to be an American .

Now excuse me while I go convert my money to gold while it's still worth the trouble.

Can't eat gold.

Ain't it funny how people think gold is a panacea?