Federal Court Tells Minorities to Stop Whining About Prayer

Paratus

Lifer
Jun 4, 2004
16,600
13,272
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Religious minorities complaining about christian prayers done by government officials of course.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...looks_like_it_establishes_state_religion.html

As the United States marches forward in its quest to restore its former greatness, it should surprise nobody that government sponsored Christian prayer is now apparently going to be a thing again. On Monday, a divided three-judge panel of the 4th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals reinstated what’s been a years-long, all-Christian prayer regime in Rowan County, North Carolina, partly because of the long-standing history of sectarian worship in the region and partly because, in their telling, minority religious objectors are just thin-skinned and childish. In allowing the county’s Board of Commissioners to resume offering prayers before legislative sessions, Judge G. Steven Agee’s 2–1 majority opinion relied mainly on a 2014 Supreme Court legislative prayer case called Town of Greece v. Galloway for the new proposition that sectarian prayer before government meetings should be permitted if nonbelievers aren’t feeling shamed or coerced. The majority in Town of Greece also insisted that public prayer—even to someone else’s God—ennobles and calms us all, another flawed proposition on which this latest ruling also relies.

While I'm sure some will be ecstatic about this ruling, (because hey if our founding fathers grew up with state sponsored religion why shouldn't we?), I really found the following statement by the court to be really interesting:

“Christian concepts typically consisted of the closing line, such as ‘In Jesus’ name. Amen,’ ” the court finds that “these are not really Christian prayers.”

Hmm an institution of the government declaring what is and isn't a Christian prayer.

Could be some really interesting ramifications in this country if this doesn't get overturned for so blatantly violating the first amendment a middle school social studies class could call it.
 
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senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,782
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Someone should attend and say "Allahu Akbar" instead of "In Jesus' Name," see how they like it.
There are a lot of 5:4 decisions that will need to be scrubbed once the court flips.
 

Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
12,007
572
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County commissioners, all of whom are Christian, open their meetings with a Christian prayer in which people are invited but not coerced to participate.

That doesn't strike me as particularly egregious. Just because you're a state official doesn't mean you have to completely leave your faith out of public view. If the commissioners were Muslim or Buddhist I'd see it the same way.
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,782
6,186
126
County commissioners, all of whom are Christian, open their meetings with a Christian prayer in which people are invited but not coerced to participate.

That doesn't strike me as particularly egregious. Just because you're a state official doesn't mean you have to completely leave your faith out of public view. If the commissioners were Muslim or Buddhist I'd see it the same way.
Except the same people who support this also yell "Sharia!" if Muslims do it. Plus establishment clause.
 
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Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
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Except the same people who support this also yell "Sharia!" if Muslims do it. Plus establishment clause.

Maybe. But not if Jews, Buddhists, Zoroastrians, Atheists, Hindus, Unitarians, or Bahais did it.

Secondly, establishment clause doesn't say that County officials can't say voluntary prayers at their meetings. It says that Congress can't make laws respecting an establishment of religion.
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,782
6,186
126
Maybe. But not if Jews, Buddhists, Zoroastrians, Atheists, Hindus, Unitarians, or Bahais did it.
Secondly, establishment clause doesn't say that County officials can't say voluntary prayers at their meetings. It says that Congress can't make laws respecting an establishment of religion.
That's like saying county officials can infringe on your freedom of speech, since they aren't Congress.
 

Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
12,007
572
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That's like saying county officials can infringe on your freedom of speech, since they aren't Congress.

I suppose that's a good point. But I still don't see how saying a non-coercive Christian prayer represents an establishment of religion.
 

MongGrel

Lifer
Dec 3, 2013
38,751
3,068
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County commissioners, all of whom are Christian, open their meetings with a Christian prayer in which people are invited but not coerced to participate.

That doesn't strike me as particularly egregious. Just because you're a state official doesn't mean you have to completely leave your faith out of public view. If the commissioners were Muslim or Buddhist I'd see it the same way.

Rural county commissoners who can pull crap off at a drop of a hat are probably a large problem in the US these days.

Local Government plays a larger point in most peoples daily lives, but they tend to ingore that fact.

It enforces the stupidity of there is nothing you can do about it.

I've seen it happen way too often, and a lot of things have been gerrymandered over time to begin with.

The vast majority of people do not give a shit about their local governments in the US, and focus on things like the Drumpf show.
 
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sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,083
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If you can't say your magical incantations before convening business, who knows what horrific things could go wrong?
 

Paratus

Lifer
Jun 4, 2004
16,600
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That's like saying county officials can infringe on your freedom of speech, since they aren't Congress.

I think what Atreus is saying is it's a benefit to religious people if the government gets involved with them and their religion.

People are weak and without constant support by and from the government they may lose their religion.

Wouldn't it be great to bring the full power of the government to bear on people's religious lives.
smileys-whistling-823718.gif
 

MongGrel

Lifer
Dec 3, 2013
38,751
3,068
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I think what Atreus is saying is it's a benefit to religious people if the government gets involved with them and their religion.

People are weak and without constant support by and from the government they may lose their religion.

Wouldn't it be great to bring the full power of the government to bear on people's religious lives.
smileys-whistling-823718.gif

Patriots seem to have changed a bit over time since the Constitution was written I guess.

Or some people seem to think so.
 

elitejp

Golden Member
Jan 2, 2010
1,080
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As i see it congress shouldnt have a say in any religious activity. If a person wants to pray let them pray. They can represent themselves and pray quietly to themself if they are in a govt organized event. If they are in a likeminded religious group and are conducting govt business then let them pray as well out loud to the group if everyone so wishes.

People get pretty worked up about this thing but seriously a prayer isnt going to hurt anyone. I have friends who say offensive things all the time. But I still have the choice whether or not im going to take offense to it. No one is going to agree on everything. And someone praying to their god for help in a govt decision isnt going to keep me up all night angry that they believe in a god.

But back to the point. The govt should just allow every religion to pray when and where they want. And stick by the original constitutional premise that govt wont hinder any religious group from civilized "worship" or "prayer".
 

sportage

Lifer
Feb 1, 2008
11,493
3,159
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All this talk about religion.
I remember when church was the place for religion.
Guess Christians gave up on that crazy idea.
 

MongGrel

Lifer
Dec 3, 2013
38,751
3,068
121
Once upon a time all school children said the Pledge of Alligance in school everyday, and were taught the Pilgrims came over on the Mayflower to escape religious persecution.

Good thing the Native American's bailed them out from starving then.

Then there were tea parties and crap later I guess.

But that is just a fantasy I suppose.
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
Its the collision of what is constitutional vs what is traditional. When the nation was more religiously homogenous, nobody probably raised an eye to a county commissioner opening a meeting with prayer or a town putting out a nativity scene around christmas time. Government workers expressing their faith didn't come across as state establishment or favoritism towards any one religion. Even across Christian faiths, the Catholics did their thing, the Protestants theirs and the Methodists sometimes something else entirely.

Now, that is no longer the case. Common sense would dictate that we just isolate the two. I would prefer we just celebrate and recognize all religions because the culinary cultures of each are usually amazing, particularly the Flying Spagetti Monster.
 

Exterous

Super Moderator
Jun 20, 2006
20,348
3,426
126
Separation of church and state.

That principle sure got worked over and turned on its head, didn't it?

Given that sessions of congress have started with a prayer since 1774 and regularly continues to do so and that this practice was started by the crafters of the Constitution who also appointed the chaplin it seems more that the population has changed as opposed to the principle.

More to this case it seems prayer duties rotate between the 5 elected officials who are free to give whatever religious prayer they want as long as it doesn't "proselytize or disparage". It would be interesting to see how they would react to other faiths being represented at the start but I don't automatically assume they are religious bigots like some in this thread
 

Texashiker

Lifer
Dec 18, 2010
18,811
197
106
There is a line in the sand, take your pick.

Religion gives people a moral code to live by.

Atheism there is no moral code, there is no guiding light.
 

1prophet

Diamond Member
Aug 17, 2005
5,313
534
126
Rural county commissoners who can pull crap off at a drop of a hat are probably a large problem in the US these days.

Local Government plays a larger point in most peoples daily lives, but they tend to ingore that fact.

It enforces the stupidity of there is nothing you can do about it.

I've seen it happen way too often, and a lot of things have been gerrymandered over time to begin with.

The vast majority of people do not give a shit about their local governments in the US, and focus on things like the Drumpf show.
Because they have been brainwashed to believe that their entire civic duty revolves around voting every 2 or 4 years, allowing individuals and organizations to take advantage of that apathy during local elections pushing through self serving policies at the local level.
 

Texashiker

Lifer
Dec 18, 2010
18,811
197
106
Rural county commissoners who can pull crap off at a drop of a hat are probably a large problem in the US these days.
.

Speaking from a rural area, county commissioners like their jobs and want to keep them. With a small voting base it is important to keep the roads and bridges in working order.

I have no idea what you mean by "who can pull crap off at a drop of a hat".
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
33,350
7,427
136
There is a line in the sand, take your pick.

Religion gives people a moral code to live by.

Atheism there is no moral code, there is no guiding light.

You support government sponsored Islamic "code"?
People expect equal treatment.
 

Texashiker

Lifer
Dec 18, 2010
18,811
197
106
You support government sponsored Islamic "code"?
People expect equal treatment.

I support respecting our heritage.

This nation was settled (not established) by christians and jews looking fro religious freedom. People need to respect our history.