Federal court stays Trump's attempt to discriminate against transgender people serving in militaty

Feb 6, 2002
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Since Mr. Trump gave the order, the Pentagon has slow-walked it, telling transgender members of the military that they could continue to serve openly while the Pentagon decided how to handle the ban. Last month, the Pentagon paid for gender-reassignment surgery for an active-duty military member.
The military has basically said "fuck you Trump we ain't doing this" we'll slow walk it to death. Good for them

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/11/us/politics/transgender-military-pentagon.html
 

HTFOff

Golden Member
Oct 3, 2013
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Jul 20, 2001
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Maybe Trump should stop issuing illegal orders.
 

HTFOff

Golden Member
Oct 3, 2013
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Literally hitler, right?
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
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Literally hitler, right?
I could be wrong but it seems to me that nobody could literally be Hitler For one thing he's dead. I'm not really worried about Trump literally being Hitler. I'm worried we have a psychopath for a president who reeks of authoritarian characteristics and narcissistic megalomania. He's a threat to our democracy and needs to be removed as soon as possible. I am sorry that simple facts are causing you to have indigestion and a loose stool. There is just no way around the fact that defending Trump against a dictator charge means there is something wrong with you. The only place in the world you will find a collection of similarly delusional people to yourself is right here in the United States where you have been exposed to the local mass psychosis. The rest of the world will recognize you as an idiot because they would have to be idiots to believe what you do. They can't see that you were made to be this sick and it isn't your fault.
 

glenn1

Elite Member
Sep 6, 2000
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#9
Seems like the military is pretty well along on adjusting policy to accommodate transgenders. The one concern I do have is that it should be required that you meet all standards (physical fitness, body mass index, etc.) for your 'old' gender before allowing transition. Or at least don't remove them from an existing performance improvement plan if they transition but then meet minimums under "new" gender standards so it doesn't become a means of gaming the system. Admittedly that would be an extreme measure for someone to take, but when I was serving I knew folks who would take somewhat risky measures to preserve their careers; everything from amphetamines to combining massive amounts of diuretics and unhealthy sauna times.
 

pauldun170

Diamond Member
Sep 26, 2011
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#11
Seems like the military is pretty well along on adjusting policy to accommodate transgenders. The one concern I do have is that it should be required that you meet all standards (physical fitness, body mass index, etc.) for your 'old' gender before allowing transition. Or at least don't remove them from an existing performance improvement plan if they transition but then meet minimums under "new" gender standards so it doesn't become a means of gaming the system. Admittedly that would be an extreme measure for someone to take, but when I was serving I knew folks who would take somewhat risky measures to preserve their careers; everything from amphetamines to combining massive amounts of diuretics and unhealthy sauna times.
http://www.ncosupport.com/military-news/military-transgender-prt.html
Gender transition begins when a Service member receives a diagnosis
from a military medical provider indicating that gender transition is
medically necessary, and concludes when the Service member’s gender
marker in DEERS is changed and the member is recognized in the
preferred gender. At that point, the Service member will be responsible
for meeting all applicable military standards in the preferred gender, and
as to facilities subject to regulation by the military, will use those berthing,
bathroom, and shower facilities associated with the preferred gender.
https://www.military.com/daily-news...ns-fitness-standards-transgender-sailors.html
The guidance also contains a caution for sailors hoping to transition: they will be expected to pass the physical fitness requirements of their preferred gender immediately on transition, and are expected to take the initiative to train to those standards in advance.
 

glenn1

Elite Member
Sep 6, 2000
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#12
That's fine for female to male transsexuals as male fitness standards are higher (appropriately due to physiological differences) but gives a big break to male to female transsexuals for the same reasons of lower standards. The advantages are somewhat more complicated with weight/BMI, you're more advantaged in weight standards going female-male but the reverse is true for body fat calculations.

Again this is not trying to "punish" transsexuals. Physical fitness and BMI standards aren't so onerous that it requires Olympian level fitness to meet them. I just don't want to create a situation where a transition becomes a potential "solution" to getting off a Performance Improvement Plan for an overweight or out-of-shape soldier. Just make it such that if you're not on a PIP before you're allowed to transition, or that if you are on one while you transition that to get off it that you need to meet the higher standard first.
 
Jan 12, 2005
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That's fine for female to male transsexuals as male fitness standards are higher (appropriately due to physiological differences) but gives a big break to male to female transsexuals for the same reasons of lower standards. The advantages are somewhat more complicated with weight/BMI, you're more advantaged in weight standards going female-male but the reverse is true for body fat calculations.

Again this is not trying to "punish" transsexuals. Physical fitness and BMI standards aren't so onerous that it requires Olympian level fitness to meet them. I just don't want to create a situation where a transition becomes a potential "solution" to getting off a Performance Improvement Plan for an overweight or out-of-shape soldier. Just make it such that if you're not on a PIP before you're allowed to transition, or that if you are on one while you transition that to get off it that you need to meet the higher standard first.
Ummmmm. Is there an issue with soldiers being willing to have their dicks chopped off just to get out of an exercise regime?
 

pauldun170

Diamond Member
Sep 26, 2011
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#14
I just don't want to create a situation where a transition becomes a potential "solution" to getting off a Performance Improvement Plan for an overweight or out-of-shape soldier.
Think about what you are saying here.
That scenario could only occur in an early 80's B-movie starting an SNL character.
 

pauldun170

Diamond Member
Sep 26, 2011
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#15
Ummmmm. Is there an issue with soldiers being willing to have their dicks chopped off just to get out of an exercise regime?
Well to be fair, for the price of a dick you get a 2 minute bonus in the 2 mile run.
 

glenn1

Elite Member
Sep 6, 2000
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#16
Ummmmm. Is there an issue with soldiers being willing to have their dicks chopped off just to get out of an exercise regime?
Yeah, well considering the policy doesn't require gender reassignment surgery (or AFAIK any hormone therapy or other medical interventions) to have their gender marker changed your "concern" seems moot. It's certainly not something which would be undertaken lightly but in the real world military folks with PFT and weight/BMI issues deal with real consequences such as bars to re-enlistment, ineligibility for promotion or transfer, and potentially removal from service. Considering taxpayers can spend deep into the 5 or 6 figures range developing the service members and other service members lives are potentially at stake it's important to get this correct.
 
Jan 12, 2005
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Yeah, well considering the policy doesn't require gender reassignment surgery (or AFAIK any hormone therapy or other medical interventions) to have their gender marker changed your "concern" seems moot. It's certainly not something which would be undertaken lightly but in the real world military folks with PFT and weight/BMI issues deal with real consequences such as bars to re-enlistment, ineligibility for promotion or transfer, and potentially removal from service. Considering taxpayers can spend deep into the 5 or 6 figures range developing the service members and other service members lives are potentially at stake it's important to get this correct.
I feel that your "concern" there is far outweighing my "concern".
Is this a problem really? Does it actually happen in any numbers that would affect the military budget?
 
Oct 18, 2005
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I feel that your "concern" there is far outweighing my "concern".
Is this a problem really? Does it actually happen in any numbers that would affect the military budget?
Nope it doesn't based on stats provided by the DoD. Glenn is just concern trolling again.
 

glenn1

Elite Member
Sep 6, 2000
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#19
I feel that your "concern" there is far outweighing my "concern".
Is this a problem really? Does it actually happen in any numbers that would affect the military budget?
What concern have you expressed other than presumably for “chopped off dicks”? I’ve already said I’m supportive of transgendered folks serving, why do you have a problem admitting I might have a point about the extreme edge case I cited? There is a legitimate and very pertinent reason why fitness standards exist for the military.
 
Jan 12, 2005
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#20
What concern have you expressed other than presumably for “chopped off dicks”? I’ve already said I’m supportive of transgendered folks serving, why do you have a problem admitting I might have a point about the extreme edge case I cited? There is a legitimate and very pertinent reason why fitness standards exist for the military.
I'm just saying that you should probably show that there's an actual problem before starting to "what if" all over the place.
 

glenn1

Elite Member
Sep 6, 2000
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#21
I'm just saying that you should probably show that there's an actual problem before starting to "what if" all over the place.
If you haven’t been in the military then perhaps you should refrain talking about subjects you have no knowledge about. It’s been an “actual problem” for decades to soldiers who struggle to meet fitness standards or weight/body mass standards. This impacts a huge amount of people beyond (and of course including) transgender people and if you removed your head from your ass for long enough you’d recognize that. If you’ve never had to end someone’s career for not making weigh-in or retrieve them from the hospital after fucking themselves up trying to pass a tape test, then you’d not be acting smugly cavalier about this.
 
Mar 11, 2004
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What concern have you expressed other than presumably for “chopped off dicks”? I’ve already said I’m supportive of transgendered folks serving, why do you have a problem admitting I might have a point about the extreme edge case I cited? There is a legitimate and very pertinent reason why fitness standards exist for the military.
Because your extreme edge case basically doesn't fucking happen? You know that in order to go through gender reassignment, they have to meet with psychologists, right? You can't do this on a whim or to try to game the system like you're suggesting.

It seems I cannot come to this forum any more without being presented with overwhelmingly stupid posts that show a clear and deliberate willful refusal to learn even basic things about the shit they're acting are completely logical and legitimate concerns, that to everyone else are just ridiculously over the top ignorant if not outright maliciously stupid. Instead you expect everyone else to humor your idiocy and present not only all the pertinent counterarguments, but even do that for your own.
 
Jan 12, 2005
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#23
If you haven’t been in the military then perhaps you should refrain talking about subjects you have no knowledge about. It’s been an “actual problem” for decades to soldiers who struggle to meet fitness standards or weight/body mass standards. This impacts a huge amount of people beyond (and of course including) transgender people and if you removed your head from your ass for long enough you’d recognize that. If you’ve never had to end someone’s career for not making weigh-in or retrieve them from the hospital after fucking themselves up trying to pass a tape test, then you’d not be acting smugly cavalier about this.
So there are figures on the amount of serving armed forces members that pretend to be transgender to get out of exercise?
 
Mar 11, 2004
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#24
If you haven’t been in the military then perhaps you should refrain talking about subjects you have no knowledge about. It’s been an “actual problem” for decades to soldiers who struggle to meet fitness standards or weight/body mass standards. This impacts a huge amount of people beyond (and of course including) transgender people and if you removed your head from your ass for long enough you’d recognize that. If you’ve never had to end someone’s career for not making weigh-in or retrieve them from the hospital after fucking themselves up trying to pass a tape test, then you’d not be acting smugly cavalier about this.
Well unless you're a transgender person, or suffering from the mental issues related, then perhaps you should refrain from talking about subjects you have no knowledge about? See how that works both ways, asshole?

So you're saying that there's rampant misreporting of gender in the military? That this was over the course of decades. And that its being done to game the system so they can pass the physical tests? Hmm, I'm sure there's absolutely no chance you're just talking out of your ass about this. Hell, weren't you just a moment ago admitting that it was an extreme edge case scenario (meaning you didn't even have any actual evidence you're just offering this as a potential situation for barring transgender people from the military, because hell, why bother learning if the current policy would even allow that to happen?).

Yet you're accusing others of having their heads up their ass? But hey, its on all of us to recognize your total ass pull load of bullshit, while you get to ignore basically anything that refutes your silly point? You know, like using basic knowledge of the situation combined with basic logic? To say nothing of, I don't know, the military itself basically already figuring out your stupidass hypothetical?
 

glenn1

Elite Member
Sep 6, 2000
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#25
Because your extreme edge case basically doesn't fucking happen? You know that in order to go through gender reassignment, they have to meet with psychologists, right? You can't do this on a whim or to try to game the system like you're suggesting.

It seems I cannot come to this forum any more without being presented with overwhelmingly stupid posts that show a clear and deliberate willful refusal to learn even basic things about the shit they're acting are completely logical and legitimate concerns, that to everyone else are just ridiculously over the top ignorant if not outright maliciously stupid. Instead you expect everyone else to humor your idiocy and present not only all the pertinent counterarguments, but even do that for your own.
Oh I forgot, it's not enough to simply support a policy like this. You need to enthusiastically embrace it without question or any exceptions whatsoever otherwise you = Hitler.
 

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