Federal Court Judges rule commonly used sting tactics unconstitutional

[Oldgamer]

USA Today News article here

Widely used sting operations facing new scrutiny from judges; two have declared them unconstitutional.



I think this is a step in the right direction. Glad to hear the Judges are expressing concern over this.

 

[NaughtyGeek]

Nothing like taking desperate people and tempting them with a big payday to serve up some good quality "justice."

It's one thing for LE to learn of folks plotting a crime, infiltrate the group plotting it and then arresting them once they've gathered enough evidence. It's an entirely different situation when LE are the ones cooking up the crime. All they're doing at that point is proving the old adage that "everyone has a price."

 

[PokerGuy]

I think there's legitimate concern about how the law enforcement agencies are selecting the targets of their sting operations (ie, are they unfairly singling out certain people or groups as targets of the sting). Outside of how they decide who to target for such an operation, I don't have a problem with the sting itself. I don't have much sympathy for someone who agrees to commit a robbery or tries to rob a place as part of a sting saying "I was set up". Well duh. If you were not a criminal and said "nope, not interested" there would have been no problem.

 

[BoberFett]

I think there's legitimate concern about how the law enforcement agencies are selecting the targets of their sting operations (ie, are they unfairly singling out certain people or groups as targets of the sting). Outside of how they decide who to target for such an operation, I don't have a problem with the sting itself. I don't have much sympathy for someone who agrees to commit a robbery or tries to rob a place as part of a sting saying "I was set up". Well duh. If you were not a criminal and said "nope, not interested" there would have been no problem.

I've read about a number of these "stings" where the person does say "Not interested" several times but the government thugs keep pressing until the person finally caves.

 

[rudder]

I've read about a number of these "stings" where the person does say "Not interested" several times but the government thugs keep pressing until the person finally caves.

I think this is how the FBI bumps up their "we are arresting terrorists" figures. They find some outcast kid and convince him he needs to blow up a school. Then arrest him when he goes to get the bomb making materials.

 

[Jaepheth]

...Real's unusual decision this month is the latest and most pointed indication yet of...

...Judges are getting really frustrated with not hng sufficient answers...

A poignant indictment of editing these days.

 

[PokerGuy]

I think this is how the FBI bumps up their "we are arresting terrorists" figures. They find some outcast kid and convince him he needs to blow up a school. Then arrest him when he goes to get the bomb making materials.

That's a very fine line. If they could convince that "kid" to actually go through with it and try to blow up the place, who's to say that some other group can't do the same and actually have him go through with it? Someone who's willing to do something like that is a danger to society and I'd rather have him off the streets. No problem with that sting IMO.

 

[PokerGuy]

I've read about a number of these "stings" where the person does say "Not interested" several times but the government thugs keep pressing until the person finally caves.

The case the OP posted about doesn't appear to have such an element (at least that's not what the defendants argued). There's obviously a line that can be crossed, with enough badgering and pressure you can coerce people to do a lot of things, but that's not what the ruling was about.

 

[PokerGuy]

The appeals court immediately put a stay on the ruling by the judge, and it's very possible that the ruling will get tossed on appeal.

 

[WHAMPOM]

That's a very fine line. If they could convince that "kid" to actually go through with it and try to blow up the place, who's to say that some other group can't do the same and actually have him go through with it? Someone who's willing to do something like that is a danger to society and I'd rather have him off the streets. No problem with that sting IMO.

Recruitment and a willing volunteer are very different. Check out the Fifties Study, 50% of people will torture someone to death if told to do so by an authority figure, a fine a line as the Pacific is wide.

 

[PokerGuy]

Recruitment and a willing volunteer are very different. Check out the Fifties Study, 50% of people will torture someone to death if told to do so by an authority figure, a fine a line as the Pacific is wide.

You're probably referring to the Milgram experiment, I'm familiar with it. Indeed, that's why I said in an earlier post that the question of how sting targets are selected is legitimate.

 

[Jhhnn]

I think there's legitimate concern about how the law enforcement agencies are selecting the targets of their sting operations (ie, are they unfairly singling out certain people or groups as targets of the sting). Outside of how they decide who to target for such an operation, I don't have a problem with the sting itself. I don't have much sympathy for someone who agrees to commit a robbery or tries to rob a place as part of a sting saying "I was set up". Well duh. If you were not a criminal and said "nope, not interested" there would have been no problem.

That's immaterial. It is improper for LEO's to create a conspiracy from scratch & then bust people who buy into it. Had they not created the conspiracy, there would have been no crime.

The perversion of Justice is extreme & completely unacceptable in a free society.

 

[Paul98]

That's immaterial. It is improper for LEO's to create a conspiracy from scratch & then bust people who buy into it. Had they not created the conspiracy, there would have been no crime.

The perversion of Justice is extreme & completely unacceptable in a free society.

Agreed

 

[rudder]

That's a very fine line. If they could convince that "kid" to actually go through with it and try to blow up the place, who's to say that some other group can't do the same and actually have him go through with it? Someone who's willing to do something like that is a danger to society and I'd rather have him off the streets. No problem with that sting IMO.

Valid point... But the government tends to operate simply based on whatever metrics are used to determine performance. Much like the VA basing performance on getting veterans appointments within 14 days which led to fraud. Sometimes this leads me to not trust the judgement of various government agencies.

 

[shira]

...Real's unusual decision this month is the latest and most pointed indication yet of...

...Judges are getting really frustrated with not hng sufficient answers...

A poignant indictment of editing these days.

Your criticism of the editing of "hng" ["having", which actually should be "receiving"] is valid. But "pointed" is the completely correct spelling of the intended word, which means "criticizing in a direct and unambiguous way."

 

[stormkroe]

That's immaterial. It is improper for LEO's to create a conspiracy from scratch & then bust people who buy into it. Had they not created the conspiracy, there would have been no crime.

The perversion of Justice is extreme & completely unacceptable in a free society.

This x 100.

 

[Northern Lawn]

I hope they keep the bait bikes. It's hilarious to see a thief get tackled moments after stealing a bike.

 

[who?]

I think the bait bikes are fine as long as they don't have anybody pointing them out to people and suggesting they steal them. Some defense lawyers in California think the bait cars are entrapment because the undercovers put on a performance to draw attention to the fact that they're leaving an unlocked car parked with the keys in it.

 

[Kwatt]

I have to wonder if some of this is being done to keep for profit prisions populated...


.

 

[unokitty]

I have to wonder if some of this is being done to keep for profit prisions populated... .

Private Prisons Spend $45 Million On Lobbying, Rake In $5.1 Billion For Immigrant Detention Alone

A decade ago, more than 3,300 criminal immigrants were sent to private prisons under two 10-year contracts the Federal Bureau of Prisons signed with CCA worth $760 million. Now, the agency is paying the private companies $5.1 billion to hold more than 23,000 criminal immigrants through 13 contracts of varying lengths.

CCA was on the verge of bankruptcy in 2000 due to lawsuits, management problems and dwindling contracts. Last year, the company reaped $162 million in net income.

Spend 45 million on lobbying. Make $162 million net.

Uno

 

[PokerGuy]

That's immaterial. It is improper for LEO's to create a conspiracy from scratch & then bust people who buy into it. Had they not created the conspiracy, there would have been no crime.

I think the point is that the person is willing to do something drastic when presented with the opportunity. Instead of the sting providing that opportunity, what it if was some group? How can you be sure that there would not have been a crime?

The perversion of Justice is extreme & completely unacceptable in a free society.

I don't see any perversion of justice. Don't want to end up in jail? Don't commit a crime .... regardless of who provides you the opportunity to do so.

 

[DominionSeraph]

A poignant indictment of editing these days.

1point·ed

adjective \ˈpȯin-təd\

Definition of POINTED

1
a : having a point
b : being an arch with a pointed crown; also : marked by the use of a pointed arch <pointed architecture>

2
a : being to the point : pertinent
b : aimed at a particular person or group

3
: conspicuous, marked <pointed indifference>

4
: having points that contrast in color with the basic coat color <a pointed cat>

While everything poignant is pointed, not everything pointed is poignant.

 

[Northern Lawn]

I think the bait bikes are fine as long as they don't have anybody pointing them out to people and suggesting they steal them. Some defense lawyers in California think the bait cars are entrapment because the undercovers put on a performance to draw attention to the fact that they're leaving an unlocked car parked with the keys in it.

I actually wonder about those cars too. I've seen photoge where there are a half dozen black guys standing around laughing telling everyone it's a bait car. And someone still trys to steal it, impress their friends or whatever or perhaps just stupid.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

I think the point is that the person is willing to do stic when presented with the opportunity. Instead of the sting providing that opportunity, what it if was some group? How can you be sure that there would not have been a crime?



I don't see any perversion of justice. Don't want to end up in jail? Don't commit a crime .... regardless of who provides you the opportunity to do so.

It is the proper role of government to prosecute crime. It is no one's to create a fiction. People may or may not have a propensity to do bad things but then I am sure that virtually everyone might violate law if trickery is properly crafted and that includes you and me. Punish crime, don't make one.

 

[PokerGuy]

It is the proper role of government to prosecute crime. It is no one's to create a fiction. People may or may not have a propensity to do bad things but then I am sure that virtually everyone might violate law if trickery is properly crafted and that includes you and me. Punish crime, don't make one.

Fair enough, I see your point. I guess in my mind there's also a distinction between a crime against some unknown entity (like stealing drugs from a house), versus a crime against people (ie, planting a bomb in a crowded place to kill people). A normal person would not be willing to do the latter, and I have no problem with stings that can help expose people that would so they can be taken off the streets before they get the chance.