Federal budget spending increase freeze: the most agreeable way to rein in spending?

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BaliBabyDoc

Lifer
Jan 20, 2001
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Here's what I'd like to see and I'll say this again for you... Keep the GDP growing faster than our debt. Obviously there will be years that you can't freeze. This is one of those, but it's a goal to work toward. As long as the GDP outpaces our debt, each year we will look better and better.
Dude if some economist had figured out how to guarantee GDP growth in excess of debt growth I imagine she would be a consultant for every country on the planet. The global economist position is likely remain vacant for another millenium.

On a more realistic note, debt as a % of GDP is a useful economic exercise but as more and more of our GDP is tied up in keeping old people alive/stoned, NMD to fight starving North Koreans, new nukes, occupying Arab states . . . less will be applied to activities that actually make our nation stronger from within. Hence I continue to reference VA, CMS, SS b/c these will be ever increasing aspects of our budget AND GDP.

This is nothing different than having a job, buying your first house of which required you to finance your life away, having a car payment, credit card debt the works. Very common situation for alot of people. As they get raises and better jobs, over time, those payments get smaller and smaller -- even if they just paid interest only, because their income is increasing.
Damn you must be young. Unlike the federal government most working people operate with real budgets. You spend for necessities . . . and some wants. On occasion you will spend money you do not have (credit/loan) but you do it judiciously and never on a continuing basis. Mortgages produce real assets . . . ask Trump. But if you have massive amounts of depreciating assets . . . (cars/old people/occupied countries) you are in deep poo b/c those assets not only depreciate (lost original value) but they consume additional resources.

What you are proposing is the equivalent of having a Centurion AmEx card but paying only interest. Despite having ever increasing income you continue to live so far beyond your means that debt is the only way to sustain it. You have no intention of ever paying your bills . . . essentially leave your debt to your heirs.
 

Ferocious

Diamond Member
Feb 16, 2000
4,584
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Bush and the Fed are pumping money into the economy so aggressively to hold things together until the election.

Because of this 2004 will probably seem like a good year economically overall....though not as good as 2003.

But by the end of the year if not sooner....the bear should reveal himself again in the markets.

The million dollar question is how many voters will become aware of this before the election?
 

Bitdog

Member
Dec 3, 2003
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If petitions are signed and enough signitures are gathered,
"we the people" can vote on the issues, instead of a candidate.
I would sign a federal balenced buget law petition, & vote to enforce it.
We can not allow those we elect to decide their own wage or be allowed to spend us into debt.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
10% of every tax dollar goes to pay the interest on the debt ? Is that true?
If so, we get 2% (or less) interest on our money in the bank,
and buddies (banks?) of our elected representives in government get 10% interest?
 

Genesys

Golden Member
Nov 10, 2003
1,536
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Originally posted by: Ferocious
The million dollar question is how many voters will become aware of this before the election?

or how many people are you going to have to continuously lie to so that they believe it?
 

GrGr

Diamond Member
Sep 25, 2003
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Originally posted by: dirtboy
Originally posted by: Jhhnn

Govt bonds are paying low rates precisely because they're in demand- it's an auction of sorts.

Amazing how in one sentance you have provided complete proof that you have no clue what you are talking about.

There isn't a demand for buying government bonds right now. Why do you think the dollar is sliding? For two big reasons: the first is that people are putting their money back into the stock market and getting out of bonds because you don't want to get stuck holding a bond when rates rise; and second there are other stable governments in other countries right now that have higher rates so people who invest in safe government bonds are choosing ones that pay higher that ours.

Want to see a demand in government bonds? Raise interest rates to 12% and watch the money pour in.

Japan and China have been buying US treasury bonds to the tune of hundreds of billions of dollars to prop up the dollar to support their own currencies.

Rest of the world get's sick of propping up Bush's deficit

"If, or when, the rest of the world decides to stop funnelling the $US2 billion per working day that the US needs to pay for its spending, Henry says we're all in for "an economic adjustment of major proportions".

American interest rates would skyrocket and the greenback would drop like a stone, for starters, which is why Henry argued so hard for the Reserve Bank board to drop interest rates pre-emptively this year.

One of Henry's colleagues on the Reserve Bank board, Warwick McKibbin, is not concerned about the quantum of America's record 5 per cent, $US500 billion current account deficit, but he is very worried about its composition.

An ANU economist and professorial fellow at the Lowy Institute, Professor McKibbin is doing the sums on the incomprehensibly large $US7000 billion in tax cuts and security spending - 10 times Australia's annual economic output - that has been lumped on to America's 10-year deficit projection since Bush's election three years ago.

His modelling concludes that the deficit "explosion" would leave the US economy "unambiguously worse off in the medium and long term".

"I think that the story for the next couple of years will be how the world economy will adjust to that sort of expansion in the US," says McKibbin.

He is now modelling the consequences of such a move and thinks they could be dramatic.

McKibbin says the record US current account deficit will lower world growth by diverting investment spending to the US - until the massive fiscal component scares investors away.

A financial system shake-out in the US could wound the American economy but may not be all detrimental to the rest of the world.

American consumers will be forced to finance their own public and private debts, causing US interest rates to rise and investment to fall.

"Rather than financing the fiscal deficits from willing foreigners, the funds are now drawn from within the US economy through higher interest rates, reducing private investment," says McKibbin.

He estimates that the US fiscal deficit will depress American equity markets and lop 6 per cent from GDP within 10 years.

On the plus side, his modelling shows investor "flight" will boost growth in the rest of the world because their money would be redirected.

Australia's fund managers would redirect the disproportionately large investments they send to US markets and Australia would benefit as other countries redirected their investments here.

Seven months on, it seems Ken Henry's major adjustment has begun in earnest. There are early signs that the rest of the world is no longer happy to fund American spending.

State Street's portfolio flow indicators suggests the quality of capital inflows into the US is rapidly declining. Equity inflows have increased into most world markets in the past two months, except for the US.

Total investment flows to the US are declining, compounding the US dollar's two year fall, which McKibbin attributes to investor concerns about country risk.

"That happens in some smaller countries but is quite unusual in the US - at least since the second world war," says McKibbin.

There has been dissension on the Bank of Japan board about whether to extend its US dollar-buying program.

And if Chinese inflation accelerates too far, the People's Bank of China could choose to loosen its currency peg and slow its purchases of US dollars.

Only faith from the East Asian central banks - or perhaps a continuation of the American economy's phenomenal productivity rates - may stand between the US and a currency fall, interest rate spike, investment slump, equity market fall and sub-standard economic growth.

Meanwhile, the Bush Administration continues to lobby China to appreciate its currency.

"The US better be careful about getting what it wished for," says Kalirai. Economic officials in Australia and across the world are practising their crash positions. "



 

Tom

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
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Originally posted by: glenn1
Problem: out of control federal spending.

Answer (?): freeze spending across the board at an arbitrary point, say 2003 funding levels, for several years.

Lay off the spending increases, and the Treasury intakes will begin to catch up to outlays after a couple of years (intakes tend to increase over time as a simple function of growth of GDP). Wouldn't that be the simplest, easiest way to rein in spending? No arguments over spending priorities, what gets cut, or any of the other infinite number of partisan issues.


Great idea, lets tell the wounded soldiers from Iraq not to bother coming back because we aren't going to treat anymore veterans.

oh yea, lets stop hiring FBI agents and don't bother starting to inspect container ships. No more money wasted on disease research, and maybe there won't be any more hurricanes or earthquakes.





 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,589
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There are entitlement programs that would be difficult to undo. A freeze on spending would help reduce the debt load, however, any savings would be swallowed up quickly by unexpected needs and/or pork.
 

dirtboy

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
6,745
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Originally posted by: GrGr

American consumers will be forced to finance their own public and private debts, causing US interest rates to rise and investment to fall.

"Rather than financing the fiscal deficits from willing foreigners, the funds are now drawn from within the US economy through higher interest rates, reducing private investment," says McKibbin.

Exactly. Demand will be created when rates rise.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,684
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From dirtboy, in reference to govt bonds-

Amazing how in one sentance you have provided complete proof that you have no clue what you are talking about.

Quite to the contrary. GrGr's link explains a great deal about the situation, and the reason interest rates are low.

This link goes into some detail as to how the auctions occur- click auction information in the lefthand sidebar-



Bureau of the Public Debt

As I've said, and as GrGr's link points out, the day our Chinese and Japanese friends get tired of our foolishness is the day we'll be in for a very rude awakening...

The notion that the economy will grow fast enough and increase govt revenue fast enough to catch up to the current massive deficits RSN is pure pollyanna- freezing the budget at current levels might give the illusion of control, nothing more. Current spending levels and tax rates are both unsustainable in the mid to long run, and nobody knows it better than the charlatans currently formulating economic policy. The looming crisis isn't inevitable, not at all- it's being deliberately forced upon us, with the clear intent of destroying egalitarian democracy as we know it. That's not a tuxedo coat they're offering us, it's a financial straightjacket...
 

dirtboy

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
6,745
1
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Originally posted by: Jhhnn
From dirtboy, in reference to govt bonds-

Amazing how in one sentance you have provided complete proof that you have no clue what you are talking about.

Quite to the contrary. GrGr's link explains a great deal about the situation, and the reason interest rates are low.

You see, there's a big difference between wanting to do something and being forced into doing something. When I think of demand, I think of consumers wanting companies to produce SUVs, for example. Consumers demand it by buying them which causes more companies to produce them.

I don't see demand as if there was a law that said that every family had to own atleast one SUV. In this case, people would have to buy irregardless if they wanted it or not.

The fact that other countries are buying our currency to keep theirs stable is not, in my opinion, demand. It's not, because they are being forced to based on their monetary policy. I will be convinced there is demand for our bonds when you hear about people putting money in CD's that are paying very high rates or directly buying bonds that are paying high rates.

Are you buying government bonds right now? No. Are bond funds experiencing a high rates of cash inflows? No. In fact, money is leaving the bond market and headed for other investment vehicles. Hmmm...not quite as much demand as one would be made to think in this thread.
 

Genesys

Golden Member
Nov 10, 2003
1,536
0
0
Originally posted by: dirtboy
Originally posted by: Jhhnn
From dirtboy, in reference to govt bonds-

Amazing how in one sentance you have provided complete proof that you have no clue what you are talking about.

Quite to the contrary. GrGr's link explains a great deal about the situation, and the reason interest rates are low.

You see, there's a big difference between wanting to do something and being forced into doing something. When I think of demand, I think of consumers wanting companies to produce SUVs, for example. Consumers demand it by buying them which causes more companies to produce them.

I don't see demand as if there was a law that said that every family had to own atleast one SUV. In this case, people would have to buy irregardless if they wanted it or not.

The fact that other countries are buying our currency to keep theirs stable is not, in my opinion, demand. It's not, because they are being forced to based on their monetary policy. I will be convinced there is demand for our bonds when you hear about people putting money in CD's that are paying very high rates or directly buying bonds that are paying high rates.

Are you buying government bonds right now? No. Are bond funds experiencing a high rates of cash inflows? No. In fact, money is leaving the bond market and headed for other investment vehicles. Hmmm...not quite as much demand as one would be made to think in this thread.

[grammar nazi]
not to nitpick or anything, but there is no such word as irregardless [that and if there were such a word, it would be redundant]
[/grammar nazi]
 

Mean MrMustard

Diamond Member
Jan 5, 2001
3,144
10
81
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Originally posted by: charrison

That would be the easiest thing to do.

But if you dont increase spending in certain areas you get accused of being non-caring.
Right. Apparantly, you can't be a "compassionate conservative" unless you spend assloads of cash. Honestly, I wish Bush would just stop pretending he cared so much. ;)

Well, if republicans ran a platform of spending freeze or spending cuts, they would be portrayed as not being compassionate. The dems are the first ones to call planned reductions in spending increases a cut. Listen to the whine of dems how not enough money is being spent on their programs.

When was the last balanced budget?

...okay.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,684
136
Remarkable, dirtboy, when a guy can attempt to maintain a position of ignorance for ideological purposes, even when shown the false premises of his original misinformed conceptualizations.

Demand isn't your particular conceptualization of what it should be, or why. The very fact that the rate of return on US securities is low indicates that demand, for whatever reasons, is high. Straight out of the texbooks.

When the market began to crumble, savvy investors sought safe haven, driving the interest rate on US securities down. Foreign banks have other reasons for buying, but they joined in, helping to keep those rates low.

Now that market conditions are improving, investors are moving their funds to other investment vehicles. That, and continued US borrowing, are placing tremendous pressure on interest rates and continued support from foreign banks. As the business climate improves, so does demand for capital, and worldwide interest rates.

Interest rate increases take on new significance when debt liabilities are huge, and growing. As debt maintenance costs grow, borrowing and spending must be curtailed in order to maintain any semblance of fiscal integrity.

The Administration has already anchored defense/security spending at current levels with the Iraqi fiasco and puffing/pandering to the Terrar scare.

So, uhh, whip out your copy of the current budget and your calculator, explain how and where we can make sufficient cuts to even approach fiscal sanity w/o a substantial increase in taxes. figure debt maintenance as 15-18% of revenues, and revenue increases as a result of growth at a rosy 6-7%.

Won't fit together, will it? Of course not- the Admin knows it full well. This crisis is being induced by the current round of Republican sponsored looting, wrapped in the rhetoric of uber-right selfishness and false patriotism.

Real patriots defend and preserve the fiscal integrity of the government, last time I checked, anyway...
 

GrGr

Diamond Member
Sep 25, 2003
3,204
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Gp, Jhhnn

Here's a view from the UK:



'The best recovery money can buy'


The US economy is roaring, but its success is ill-founded and potentially bad news for everyone else, writes William Keegan

Tuesday January 6, 2004
William Keegan
The Observer


Now you have it. The dollar is in free fall, but it's good for General Motors and it's good for the US - especially for the Bush administration during election year.
To borrow a phrase from the Nixon administration of the early 1970s, US policy towards the dollar is one of benign neglect, benign for the US economy but potentially very malign for the eurozone.

First, however, let us set the record straight. Back on January 15 1953, Charles Wilson, then-president of General Motors, appeared before the Senate armed services committee to give testimony on his proposed nomination for secretary of defence.

His precise words were: "For years I thought what was good for our country was good for General Motors and vice versa. The difference did not exist. Our company is too big. It goes with the welfare of the country."

Wilson was president of General Motors from 1941 to 1953, before becoming secretary of defence under President Dwight Eisenhower. The 1950s was the decade when much was made of the "military industrial complex" in the US, and how close the ties were between Washington, military spending and big business. Plus &ccedil;a change.

Let us now move forward 5l years from Charles Wilson to the present chairman, Rick Wagoner. Last month, Mr Wagoner said the drop in the dollar was "a big plus" for GM. Earlier this week, he welcomed the further weakness in the US currency as a boost to sales, via increased US competitiveness against Japanese and European rivals.

Now, we all know the importance of the price mechanism in the market economy, but some prices are more important than others. The key "macro" prices are the rate of interest and the rate of exchange.

When the British pound was last at $1.80 - which it hit this week - the exchange rate proved too high for the competitiveness of many British businesses. Yet the Conservative government under John Major briefly raised interest rates to 12% (with a threat to lift them further to 15%) in order to keep sterling within the European exchange rate mechanism.

The combination of an overvalued pound and extortionately high interest rates was crippling and the policy collapsed. The British economy then embarked on a long period of expansion, fuelled by a lower exchange rate and much lower interest rates. The current accommodative economic policy in the US makes what we experienced in Britain after sterling's fall look like a vicar's tea party.

Interest rates are negligible and the Federal Reserve intends to keep them that way as long as possible. Lax fiscal policy - tax cuts - and extreme monetary stimulus mean that, in the words of retired IMF chief economist, Kenneth Rogoff, the US is enjoying "the best economic recovery money can buy". On top of that, the dollar is doing wonders for General Motors.

Is it all too good to be true? Presumably the Democrats hope so. One possible cloud on the horizon is that falling inflows of foreign, mainly East Asian funds into the US may force a rise in interest rates in the run-up to the election. Another is that the oil producing exporting countries (Opec) may get fed up with the decline in the value of their dollar earnings and push up the price of oil. That was the trigger point for the first oil shock of the 1970s).

But for the moment George Bush is riding high on an economic revival that everyone knows means trouble via the twin budget and trade deficits in the medium term. As for the fiscal stimulus, more and more commentators are noticing that it is not just tax cuts that are boosting the US economy but vast increases in military - or, in the case of lucrative contracts in Iraq, militarily-induced - spending. That 1950s-style military industrial complex is back.

Yet it was Eisenhower himself who cautioned back in 1953: "Every gun that is made, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed." Happy new year.

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