Federal appeals court tosses two lawsuits over Obamacare

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xBiffx

Diamond Member
Aug 22, 2011
8,232
2
0
A constitutional amendment could be passed that would alter this, but that's not a law, that's a constitutional amendment.

Nothing else you said matters because of this statement. The minute you and other liberals realize that the Constitution AND its Amendments are the supreme law of the land then we can have a rational discussion. But this is the problem with you are others with your mentality. You think the constitution is nothing more than and old, dead smattering of words that mean nothing and is just an obstacle that can be pushed aside when it suits your agenda. IT IS THE LAW, the supreme law, and until you can admit that, nothing you say matters. I'm done with this debate.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,503
50,662
136
Nothing else you said matters because of this statement. The minute you and other liberals realize that the Constitution AND its Amendments are the supreme law of the land then we can have a rational discussion. But this is the problem with you are others with your mentality. You think the constitution is nothing more than and old, dead smattering of words that mean nothing and is just an obstacle that can be pushed aside when it suits your agenda. IT IS THE LAW, the supreme law, and until you can admit that, nothing you say matters. I'm done with this debate.

Words have meaning, laws passed and constitutional amendments are two very different things.

I know you're looking for a way to get out of this conversation because it's clear you didn't know what you were talking about going in. You didn't understand the 10th amendment and how it might apply here, you didn't understand Kagan's role in relation to this law and her job as solicitor general, and you didn't understand the separation of powers doctrine.

All that led you to make a really horribly uninformed post that I corrected. Hopefully you've taken something from this.
 

ichy

Diamond Member
Oct 5, 2006
6,940
8
81
Three different appellate courts have reached three wildly separate decisions on this issue. That pretty much goes to show you that case law in this country is often whatever a judge feels like pulling out of his ass, and this notion that they're just interpreting laws according to some sort of objective standard is laughable. IMO this is a strong argument for the courts second-guessing the legislative branch less frequently, since it's clear that the decisions of our elected representatives (as dumb as they may be sometimes) are being replaced by nothing more than the whims of judges.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,503
50,662
136
Three different appellate courts have reached three wildly separate decisions on this issue. That pretty much goes to show you that case law in this country is often whatever a judge feels like pulling out of his ass, and this notion that they're just interpreting laws according to some sort of objective standard is laughable. IMO this is a strong argument for the courts second-guessing the legislative branch less frequently, since it's clear that the decisions of our elected representatives (as dumb as they may be sometimes) are being replaced by nothing more than the whims of judges.

Or it could also be that there isn't a clear answer to some of these issues, and that reasonable people can disagree.

Judges aren't interpreting laws according to some objective standard, if there were such a standard we wouldn't even need judges. Judging is inherently subjective in cases such as these, and that's okay.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,266
126
So his administration took a different path than I would have and this is somehow evidence of a deficit of constitutional scholarship. Gotcha. (hint: you should probably stick to court judgments) You just want the courts to implement by judicial fiat what you lost by the democratic process.

Nowhere in my post did I say Congress had unlimited power, but you're throwing yet another health care temper tantrum.

It was stated that Obama had the option to use the 14th to avert a budget crisis. You went further by stating that it would be illegal for him not to if it came to it. Note that word "illegal". It's a fiction on you part, like your enamored view of this issue. It was in fact as much a "different path" as attempting to walk through solid rock. It was never there to begin with.

This is peripherally about Obamacare, that cluster that had a "glitch" which requires billions and billions extra be spent for medicaid benefits. Was that fixed yet? How about the fellow that thinks his costs will come down, but if he's a younger citizen his premiums have to increase in 2014 to subsidize others who are older and at a higher risk? You know that of course because you know all about it, like you did when you preached about cost savings projected by the CBO, but ignored the caveat by them which said the assumptions were that none of the cuts (such as medicare reimbursements to physicians) were restored?

And in all of this not one thing has been done to address the larger issue of health care itself such as the future allocation and types of resources needed 10, 20, and more years ahead. Geriatric specialists are very concerned and at a seminar I attended not long ago we had a discussion period about this and contrary to what you've said this all hasn't been sorted out by previous studies. What no one said is "well the solution is UHC!" or "Obamacare!" because only a fool would do that. Health care is NOT health coverage. You fail to get that.

Notwithstanding any of that you fail to see that my concern isn't about health care in this case, but a significant change in the way the commerce clause can be applied to a great many things.

What it really comes down to is that the government isn't requiring a thing, because it probably can't do it directly. Instead it uses the principle found in Marshall's axiom "the power to tax is the power to destroy", but instead of states taxing federal bank notes, it can use circuitous reasoning it can link interstate commerce to virtually anything. Once that's done all the government has to do is invoke that power. I once said that you can be made to carry a gun if the government deemed it desirable and you never came back with a counter that would render that point invalid. The best that can be mustered as an argument is that they wouldn't. In essence the limitation is your faith that you won't be coerced to do something you don't want to do although there is no direct right under the Constitution to make you act or do something. Oh you could refuse to carry that gun (and that's an example so don't even think of stating that's the issue, it's the principles involved). Yes you could. Now how about a fee for not doing so? How much can you afford not to do what is desirable in the eyes of those in power? A thousand dollars? Ten? More?

It's a matter of the principle involved here. There are no protections now, because you aren't being forced to do anything, right? Oh it will probably be found Constitutional, but that doesn't mean it's right or not a seed change in the effective rights of the individual, but you don't care about that. You care about getting Obamacare. You care about investing imaginary powers into a Presidency that did not exist, no even more, insisted he must invoke by force of law.

This is about much more than Obamacare, but it seems that is beyond you, or perhaps since it's your heart's desire any means to and end is justifiable to you.

So be it.
 

PokerGuy

Lifer
Jul 2, 2005
13,650
201
101
How can ANYONE object common sense like that?
Unless you yourself... are... the dead beat...

Or.... you are the person who's going to have to pay for the cost of healthcare skyrocketing even more than it already was. Or... you are one of the people who are going to lose their coverage because companies are dumping their health care coverage in anticipation of the debacle. Or... you are one of the people who will be unable to find a primary care physician because there simply aren't enough to cover the millions and millions of additional patients they now have to see. Or.. you are one of the people who don't want to wait 6 months to see a specialist or doctor. And so on.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,503
50,662
136
It was stated that Obama had the option to use the 14th to avert a budget crisis. You went further by stating that it would be illegal for him not to if it came to it. Note that word "illegal". It's a fiction on you part, like your enamored view of this issue. It was in fact as much a "different path" as attempting to walk through solid rock. It was never there to begin with.

No, I was stating that as the legal argument to be made on the issue, not that he was somehow compelled to do it, and I've already explained that to you before. The argument that the 14th amendment would be invoked is specifically the argument that it would have been illegal for the president not to unilaterally increase the debt ceiling. 'Taking it a step further' is nonsense, there was no further step to be made. Regardless, it was explaining a legal argument, and there's no way any rational person could have taken it otherwise. Did you actually think I believed Obama should be arrested or something for not personally increasing the debt ceiling?

This is peripherally about Obamacare, that cluster that had a "glitch" which requires billions and billions extra be spent for medicaid benefits. Was that fixed yet? How about the fellow that thinks his costs will come down, but if he's a younger citizen his premiums have to increase in 2014 to subsidize others who are older and at a higher risk? You know that of course because you know all about it, like you did when you preached about cost savings projected by the CBO, but ignored the caveat by them which said the assumptions were that none of the cuts (such as medicare reimbursements to physicians) were restored?

And in all of this not one thing has been done to address the larger issue of health care itself such as the future allocation and types of resources needed 10, 20, and more years ahead. Geriatric specialists are very concerned and at a seminar I attended not long ago we had a discussion period about this and contrary to what you've said this all hasn't been sorted out by previous studies. What no one said is "well the solution is UHC!" or "Obamacare!" because only a fool would do that. Health care is NOT health coverage. You fail to get that.

This is bizarre, unrelated, stream of consciousness ranting that has nothing to do with this thread. Like I said, whenever health care is brought up, you throw a temper tantrum.

Notwithstanding any of that you fail to see that my concern isn't about health care in this case, but a significant change in the way the commerce clause can be applied to a great many things.

What it really comes down to is that the government isn't requiring a thing, because it probably can't do it directly. Instead it uses the principle found in Marshall's axiom "the power to tax is the power to destroy", but instead of states taxing federal bank notes, it can use circuitous reasoning it can link interstate commerce to virtually anything. Once that's done all the government has to do is invoke that power. I once said that you can be made to carry a gun if the government deemed it desirable and you never came back with a counter that would render that point invalid. The best that can be mustered as an argument is that they wouldn't. In essence the limitation is your faith that you won't be coerced to do something you don't want to do although there is no direct right under the Constitution to make you act or do something. Oh you could refuse to carry that gun (and that's an example so don't even think of stating that's the issue, it's the principles involved). Yes you could. Now how about a fee for not doing so? How much can you afford not to do what is desirable in the eyes of those in power? A thousand dollars? Ten? More?

It's a matter of the principle involved here. There are no protections now, because you aren't being forced to do anything, right? Oh it will probably be found Constitutional, but that doesn't mean it's right or not a seed change in the effective rights of the individual, but you don't care about that. You care about getting Obamacare. You care about investing imaginary powers into a Presidency that did not exist, no even more, insisted he must invoke by force of law.

This is about much more than Obamacare, but it seems that is beyond you, or perhaps since it's your heart's desire any means to and end is justifiable to you.

So be it.

Well, at least here your ranting got back to the issue at hand, although the hyperbole is mighty thick. 'Deeming something desirable' is not a constitutional principle, but interstate commerce is. If I remember correctly I asked you to link the required carrying of personal firearms to Congress' duty to regulate commerce and you never got back to me on it.

I know that so your world view isn't threatened by inconvenient thoughts you need to envision me as some sort of PPAHCA zealot, hell bent on enacting this law no matter what. Meh, it's not even the right solution, which is clearly UHC. There is no circuitous reasoning required to link health care to interstate commerce, we have a nationwide, interstate health care system. This is just an increase in federal economic regulatory authority, something that I have never had a problem with. In fact, it's something that I would increase far more than we have now.

Clearly you've taken to inventing strange positions for me to hold. This is probably partially due to the fact that you've had so much trouble winning on the merits, and probably partially due to the fact that I make fun of you a lot and frequently call you dumb. You're welcome to be mad at me if you want, but this isn't making your arguments any less terrible, in fact it's making them worse.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,266
126
Well, at least here your ranting got back to the issue at hand, although the hyperbole is mighty thick. 'Deeming something desirable' is not a constitutional principle, but interstate commerce is. If I remember correctly I asked you to link the required carrying of personal firearms to Congress' duty to regulate commerce and you never got back to me on it.

There is no more duty to punish you for not carrying a firearm than for not having health insurance. There is no mandate to do any such thing whatsoever. It's a matter of the agenda, and this is a tool for that purpose which brings us to this:

\This is just an increase in federal economic regulatory authority, something that I have never had a problem with. In fact, it's something that I would increase far more than we have now.

Of course it is and that's the real issue between us. You want the government to have the ability to destroy an individual for not doing what it wants even though forcing them directly to do so may me unconstitutional. You see you aren't stupid but one who is just fine with imposing your ideas on other by ruination. A kinder, more gentile tyrant. I don't make fun of you because you are dumb. You are an educated fool, an authoritarian in sheep's clothing. No you aren't evil, you are just a tool in so many ways.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,503
50,662
136
There is no more duty to punish you for not carrying a firearm than for not having health insurance. There is no mandate to do any such thing whatsoever. It's a matter of the agenda, and this is a tool for that purpose which brings us to this:

That doesn't make any sense. Congress has the ability and the duty to regulate interstate commerce. Health care certainly seems to be interstate to me, and I believe it is not possible for someone to not participate in that market. Therefore, it is something Congress is able to regulate. Firearms do not necessarily need to be interstate commerce as gun manufacturers are not part of some nationwide interdependent system, and a person can most certainly live their whole lives without participating in that market. If you can explain to me how these requirements would be met by your gun analogy, then do that. Otherwise, it's not a valid comparison.

Of course it is and that's the real issue between us. You want the government to have the ability to destroy an individual for not doing what it wants even though forcing them directly to do so may me unconstitutional. You see you aren't stupid but one who is just fine with imposing your ideas on other by ruination. A kinder, more gentile tyrant. I don't make fun of you because you are dumb. You are an educated fool, an authoritarian in sheep's clothing. No you aren't evil, you are just a tool in so many ways.

Funny thing is that forcing him directly to do so is most certainly constitutional. (Medicare)
 

ichy

Diamond Member
Oct 5, 2006
6,940
8
81
Or it could also be that there isn't a clear answer to some of these issues, and that reasonable people can disagree.

Judges aren't interpreting laws according to some objective standard, if there were such a standard we wouldn't even need judges. Judging is inherently subjective in cases such as these, and that's okay.

If that's the case then they should defer to the judgment of the legislative branch.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,503
50,662
136
If that's the case then they should defer to the judgment of the legislative branch.

Why? We have three coequal branches for a reason. You're going to have to give an awfully good reason why the judging branch should be subordinating their judgment to the legislating branch.
 

ichy

Diamond Member
Oct 5, 2006
6,940
8
81
Why? We have three coequal branches for a reason. You're going to have to give an awfully good reason why the judging branch should be subordinating their judgment to the legislating branch.

Because when courts reach these kinds of wildly differing opinions it's clear that their "judgments" are nothing more than the whims of individual judges. If there's a clear consensus that a piece of legislation is not constitutional then that's a different story, but the fact that the fate of Obamacare could come down to one SCOTUS justice's opinion (we already know that the four hardcore conservatives will vote it down while the four liberals will uphold it) makes a farce of our system. I'm not saying that the judicial branch should have no authority, I am advocating judicial restraint.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,503
50,662
136
Because when courts reach these kinds of wildly differing opinions it's clear that their "judgments" are nothing more than the whims of individual judges. If there's a clear consensus that a piece of legislation is not constitutional then that's a different story, but the fact that the fate of Obamacare could come down to one SCOTUS justice's opinion (we already know that the four hardcore conservatives will vote it down while the four liberals will uphold it) makes a farce of our system. I'm not saying that the judicial branch should have no authority, I am advocating judicial restraint.

We really don't know that the vote will be 5-4 at all, and it is an enormous conflict of interest for the judiciary to defer on the legality of legislation to the people who made it.