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Federal appeals court tosses two lawsuits over Obamacare

Why does it seem like the right posts the threads with rulings against the healthcare act, and supporters post threads about rulings in favor of it? Funny how that goes.
 
The healthcare law challenges have been thrown out many, MANY more times than they've been ruled against, it's not even close and it's why the SCOTUS will uphold it, probably by a wide margin.
 
Keep dreaming. The only way it will be upheld is if obummer has the chance to put another idiot on the court before a ruling.

Meh, that's not what the expert court watchers think. Most that I've seen are predicting a 6-3 decision, with some going as far as a 7-2 in favor of upholding it.
 
I just read Virginia v Sibelius and Liberty v Geithner and there are some important items to note here:

1) In both cases the Court did not uphold the PPAC; the Court opined de novo that there was no standing and both suits were thrown out.
2) In Virginia v Sibelius the Court opined that since Virginia was only challenging the individual mandate and Virginia is not an individual, there existed no standing for the suit. In all likelihood, had Virginia argued Commerce Clause violations or enjoined individual citizens of Virginia to the suit it would not have been thrown out.
3) In Liberty v Geithner the Court opined that since the plaintiffs (in my opinion erroneously) referred to the individual mandate penalty as a "tax" the Anti-Injunction Act estopped them from pursuing claims of harm until such time as the allegedly illegal tax is actually collected. In other words, had the plaintiffs used the bill's own language and called it a penalty the Anti-Injunction Act would not apply. They dig their own grave.

Overall, given the tenor of the two rulings coming from the same court on the same day from the same three-judge panel I'd say the appeals court was looking for anything they could find to throw the suits out and duck the real questions involved.

Really though, I think everyone realizes that the 26 state suit in the Northern District of Florida is the one that will eventually be taken up by the USSC.
 
Meh, that's not what the expert court watchers think. Most that I've seen are predicting a 6-3 decision, with some going as far as a 7-2 in favor of upholding it.
7-2 upholding at worst would be my guess. There is a constitutional issue with mandating that someone buy a product, but considering that most justices would agree that government had the right to take one's income and provide that service for you, I can't imagine it being overturned. I'm no supporter, I just don't see it as being unconstitutional.
 
7-2, 6-3, doesn't matter. Neither of those could happen since at least one of the justices should be legally required to recuse herself (Kagan) since she actively campaigned and fought for its passage before becoming a justice. That right there makes everything all the more interesting since you then have the possibility of a tie. Of course this will likely not happen since it would most definitely go 5-4 against or 5-3 should this scenario play out. It will be kind of hard to uphold something that has already been deemed illegal by the states (at least VA) without ruling against the 10th amendment.
 
7-2, 6-3, doesn't matter. Neither of those could happen since at least one of the justices should be legally required to recuse herself (Kagan) since she actively campaigned and fought for its passage before becoming a justice. That right there makes everything all the more interesting since you then have the possibility of a tie. Of course this will likely not happen since it would most definitely go 5-4 against or 5-3 should this scenario play out. It will be kind of hard to uphold something that has already been deemed illegal by the states (at least VA) without ruling against the 10th amendment.
Those are valid points, but I don't think the 10th Amendment is considered to be on par with empowering government. There's also an issue with some states ruling it against their constitutions but other states ruling it legal by their constitutions.

Personally I think rights should be nationwide but entitlements should be on a state-by-state basis. So it wouldn't hurt my feelings if you are right, I just don't expect it.
 
7-2, 6-3, doesn't matter. Neither of those could happen since at least one of the justices should be legally required to recuse herself (Kagan) since she actively campaigned and fought for its passage before becoming a justice. That right there makes everything all the more interesting since you then have the possibility of a tie. Of course this will likely not happen since it would most definitely go 5-4 against or 5-3 should this scenario play out. It will be kind of hard to uphold something that has already been deemed illegal by the states (at least VA) without ruling against the 10th amendment.

proof? Even a stated public opinion let alone "campaigning" for it?
 
Those are valid points, but I don't think the 10th Amendment is considered to be on par with empowering government. There's also an issue with some states ruling it against their constitutions but other states ruling it legal by their constitutions.

Personally I think rights should be nationwide but entitlements should be on a state-by-state basis. So it wouldn't hurt my feelings if you are right, I just don't expect it.

In Virginia v Sibelius the Appeals Court panel touched on this, since VA was using their "The federal mandate is illegal" law to establish standing.

Basically, the Appeals Court panel opined that Virginia's law, and by proxy those passed in Arizona, Idaho, and Utah, were irrelevant/unenforceable. Any federal law deemed Constitutional would trump the state laws. The federal law in question could not be deemed unConstitutional solely because the states say it is. Furthermore, the states cannot assume standing to litigate on behalf of its citizens without the state itself suffering harm because:
a) to do so would bypass the Legislative process; and
b) only the federal gov't has the inherent right to sue on behalf of citizens
 
7-2, 6-3, doesn't matter. Neither of those could happen since at least one of the justices should be legally required to recuse herself (Kagan) since she actively campaigned and fought for its passage before becoming a justice. That right there makes everything all the more interesting since you then have the possibility of a tie. Of course this will likely not happen since it would most definitely go 5-4 against or 5-3 should this scenario play out. It will be kind of hard to uphold something that has already been deemed illegal by the states (at least VA) without ruling against the 10th amendment.

This is so wrong for so many reasons it's hard to know where to start.

First of all, there is no legal requirement for any justice to recuse themselves, ever. The means by which the Supreme Court internally operates is not subject to any law or regulation passed by any other branch due to the separation of powers. Trying to pass a law forcing justices to recuse themselves would in itself be unconstitutional.

Secondly, Kagan's involvement in the health care law was quite minimal. Considering the social, financial, political, etc. ties that other justices have had on other cases, you would have a very tough time saying that her refusal to recuse herself was outside of the norm. And let there be no doubt, she won't be recusing herself. There is a 0% chance of that.

Third, your understanding of the 10th amendment leaves something to be desired. It is completely meaningless if a state rules something is illegal or not due to the supremacy clause of the US Constitution.
 
The healthcare law challenges have been thrown out many, MANY more times than they've been ruled against, it's not even close and it's why the SCOTUS will uphold it, probably by a wide margin.

Well, the Affordable Healthcare Act may or may not actually be Constitutional. I haven't looked deeply enough at it and at the law to make that distinction. But the current overly conservative Supreme Court has made some of the most anti-Constitutional rulings I've ever seen. Some rulings that are so easily distinguishable as being against the Constitution I don't even know how they made the ruling with a straight face. So if the law is indeed Constitutional, it likely won't be upheld as such by the current Supreme Court which may be the single worst in the entire United States history.
 
^ That's a little extreme. Citizens United was a bad decision, and in hindsight it will almost certainly be seen that way. But AHCA is actually a pretty straight forward decision, not going to be ruled unconstitutional.
 
This is so wrong for so many reasons it's hard to know where to start.

First of all, there is no legal requirement for any justice to recuse themselves, ever. The means by which the Supreme Court internally operates is not subject to any law or regulation passed by any other branch due to the separation of powers. Trying to pass a law forcing justices to recuse themselves would in itself be unconstitutional.

No where did I say that there is a legal requirement, just that there should be so that, in cases like this, conflicts of interest could be resolved easily. Seperation of powers does not mean that the Supreme Court has free reign and cannot be regulated by other branches of government. If an amendment to the constitution is passed, the Supreme Court would be subject to it so your argument is inaccurate. So if we pass a law that requires recusal of a Supreme Court justice in cases of extreme conflict of interest, somehow this is unconstitutional? Under what grounds and remember to look at my last sentence.

Secondly, Kagan's involvement in the health care law was quite minimal. Considering the social, financial, political, etc. ties that other justices have had on other cases, you would have a very tough time saying that her refusal to recuse herself was outside of the norm. And let there be no doubt, she won't be recusing herself. There is a 0% chance of that.

What other justice has actually, in an official capacity, defended the law which they will most likely have to rule on? Kagan is the only Justice that by way of her position, has had previous involvement with the current law and a predetermined opinion on the matter. I agree however, her recusal is highly unlikely.

Third, your understanding of the 10th amendment leaves something to be desired. It is completely meaningless if a state rules something is illegal or not due to the supremacy clause of the US Constitution.

I don't need understanding when I can read the Amendment in the plain English in which it was written. No where, anywhere, in the Constitution is the federal government given the authority to require a citizen to purchase anything. Therefore, this right is reserved by the states as per the 10th amendment. You can't retroactively give the federal government powers not spelled out explicitly in the constitution or its amendments.
 
No where did I say that there is a legal requirement, just that there should be so that, in cases like this, conflicts of interest could be resolved easily. Seperation of powers does not mean that the Supreme Court has free reign and cannot be regulated by other branches of government. If an amendment to the constitution is passed, the Supreme Court would be subject to it so your argument is inaccurate. So if we pass a law that requires recusal of a Supreme Court justice in cases of extreme conflict of interest, somehow this is unconstitutional? Under what grounds and remember to look at my last sentence.

Actually separation of powers EXACTLY means that the internal workings of the Supreme Court, such as their decision to recuse themselves, cannot be regulated by other branches of government. Any law passed that tried to force members of the Supreme Court to recuse themselves would be unconstitutional on its face.

A constitutional amendment could be passed that would alter this, but that's not a law, that's a constitutional amendment. (by that logic, nothing is unconstitutional because you could always pass an amendment that legalized it)

What other justice has actually, in an official capacity, defended the law which they will most likely have to rule on? Kagan is the only Justice that by way of her position, has had previous involvement with the current law and a predetermined opinion on the matter. I agree however, her recusal is highly unlikely.

Kagan did not defend the law in an official capacity, this is factually incorrect. In fact she assiduously avoided getting involved in its defense, likely for this exact reason. Thomas has family and fiduciary ties to organizations dedicated to the health care law's defeat, that's worse than anything Kagan has done.


I don't need understanding when I can read the Amendment in the plain English in which it was written. No where, anywhere, in the Constitution is the federal government given the authority to require a citizen to purchase anything. Therefore, this right is reserved by the states as per the 10th amendment. You can't retroactively give the federal government powers not spelled out explicitly in the constitution or its amendments.

You may think you don't need understanding, but this post is pretty clear evidence that you do. The federal government is granted authority to regulate interstate commerce, and through this is granted all powers that are necessary and proper to carry out this function. If this is determined to be interstate commerce, Congress has almost limitless power to regulate it. It is not a retroactive power, just a new implementation of an existing power.

The thing is, if it is ruled that Congress does not have that power, what the states have ruled individually is still completely and utterly irrelevant. Congress either has the power or it doesn't, what the states think on the issue doesn't matter. What you wrote on the 10th amendment earlier was once again, simply factually incorrect.

I'm not sure where you got your ideas on the Constitution, but they don't seem to have much bearing on the real Constitution. It reminds me of this:
http://www.theonion.com/articles/area-man-passionate-defender-of-what-he-imagines-c,2849/
 
It appears that the day of unlimited authority is at hand. Oh the government can't make you do this or that, just ruin you if you do not obey. Nice.
 
Yet you have placed no limit on what can be done. As long as it suits your agenda that works for you, mein heir.

That would only be true if you didn't understand the Constitution. Your tantrums about parts of the Constitution you don't like are getting old, but don't worry! Nazi references are always in style.
 
That would only be true if you didn't understand the Constitution. Your tantrums about parts of the Constitution you don't like are getting old, but don't worry! Nazi references are always in style.

Did you scold Obama when his administration didn't agree that it would be illegal if he didn't take over the budget process as you stated? Sure you did. Your Constitutional scholarship was so unappreciated by them.
 
Did you scold Obama when his administration didn't agree that it would be illegal if he didn't take over the budget process as you stated? Sure you did. Your Constitutional scholarship was so unappreciated by them.

So his administration took a different path than I would have and this is somehow evidence of a deficit of constitutional scholarship. Gotcha. (hint: you should probably stick to court judgments) You just want the courts to implement by judicial fiat what you lost by the democratic process.

Nowhere in my post did I say Congress had unlimited power, but you're throwing yet another health care temper tantrum.
 
This law/plan is a win-win for everyone. It's a win for those who have insurance and DO NOT!!!! want to pay for the dead beats that show up in the ER with no insurance. And it's a win for the dead beats, where it forces them to carry some type of insurance thus paying for their unplanned trip to their local ER.
How can ANYONE object common sense like that?
Unless you yourself... are... the dead beat...
 
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