Fed to sue and seek injunction of AZ illegal immigrant law

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blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,914
2,359
126
Because it wasn't racist until now?

No no youre replying out of context. Vic and some other's concern is about Americans having to show ID when asked, and how thats supposedly an infringement on constitutional rights. My reply is that if you live in one of the 23 stop and identify states (whose law have been on the books for awhile) you already have to do that.

I guess its different in AZ (which IS a stop and identify state) now that SB1070 will take effect :p
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
No no youre replying out of context. Vic and some other's concern is about Americans having to show ID when asked, and how thats supposedly an infringement on constitutional rights. My reply is that if you live in one of the 23 stop and identify states (whose law have been on the books for awhile) you already have to do that.

I guess its different in AZ (which IS a stop and identify state) now that SB1070 will take effect :p

Yes. Because it's racist and violates illegals civil rights. That's what the fed is saying in their suit.

Basically they have no case and no matter what this makes Obama look like an out of touch idiot going against the will of a huge portion of our country.
 

peonyu

Platinum Member
Mar 12, 2003
2,038
23
81
I always found the border problem funny. I fail to see how a country that goes through the logistics and man power and supplying of world wars, Vietnam, Persian Gulf, Iraq and now Afghanistan cannot keep people from walking across a border. China did it centuries ago and we can't do it now ? I guess this is too complex for our current government.



The only plausible reason is they don't want to.


Yea there really is no other explanation for it. The border patrol is under manned, and thats been known [officially] for decades....Virtually little is done to fix that. Obama sending 1000 Agents to the border was a nice PR joke. 1000 is to few to matter. And those agents cant do anything anyways, "observe and report" is thier job...Which means nothing, a Camera does the same job.

And as far as our under-manned border goes...We have high unemployment now @10%. Im sure quite a few of the un-employed have the background/capability to do border security work [Army backgrounds etc]. But does the Government try that ? Nope. Instead they keep the border as-is, and go to court against the state that wants to follow the law and keep illegals out. Hard to believe.

A good leader/Government would hire the un-employed who are capable, to guard the border. Hiring 100,000 men to do that job would earn Obama huge votes and make it hell for any illegal/drug smuggler to get in...But hes a puppet imo so not his choice [I could be wrong but it doesnt seem like hes really in charge].
 
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EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,591
5
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To some extent DesiPower should not be asking the obvious question of how Holder got his job, he should be asking the more important question of why Alberto Gonzales was forced to resign and other US attorney Generals have wound up in jail?

Once the Prez appoints someone to head the Justice department and the Senate approves, there is supposed to be a wall between Partisan politics and the American peoples Justice Department.

DesiPower, you must have Presidents who believed in absolute Presidential power like Nixon and GWB, confused with Obama.

But point granted, you seem to believe Obama ordered Eric Holder to file this suit, but the onus of proof is now on you to prove Obama did. But if anything, the evidence shows, it was internal Justice staff officials that were telling Holder the AZ law was probably unconstitutional even before Holder looked at the issues. In short, exactly like a peoples Justice Department is supposed to act.


The timing is very suspect.

Obama states that he does not believe the AZ law should exist (the why is in multiple statements)

That week, Holder goes on national media and states that the Justice will file suit even if he has not read the bill. Nor did he ever indicate that staff members had made such a recommendation that Justice file suit.

So why would he make such a statement if not "advised" from on high that the AG should get involved?

Or does he shoot off his mouth whenever asked a question that involves Federal law?

the Justice is to enforce the laws of this country. If they do not have the allocated resources; they must pick and choose. And what is such a criteria - their political masters! They have already demonstrated that as such before this issue.
 

highland145

Lifer
Oct 12, 2009
42,884
5,320
136
No no youre replying out of context. Vic and some other's concern is about Americans having to show ID when asked, and how thats supposedly an infringement on constitutional rights. My reply is that if you live in one of the 23 stop and identify states (whose law have been on the books for awhile) you already have to do that.

I guess its different in AZ (which IS a stop and identify state) now that SB1070 will take effect :p
I was being a smart ass. Earlier I mentioned that I thought the fed law was much tougher, iirc. So AZ should just enforce that one instead. Win with no $$ being spent.
 

Schadenfroh

Elite Member
Mar 8, 2003
38,416
4
0
What ever happened to Conjur?

We did not ban him, no activity since 2008. Self-imposed exile, maybe? Perhaps he moved on to bigger and better things? He had a forum called yagt.org a while back, not sure if that is still around.
 

CrackRabbit

Lifer
Mar 30, 2001
16,641
58
91
No no youre replying out of context. Vic and some other's concern is about Americans having to show ID when asked, and how thats supposedly an infringement on constitutional rights. My reply is that if you live in one of the 23 stop and identify states (whose law have been on the books for awhile) you already have to do that.

I guess its different in AZ (which IS a stop and identify state) now that SB1070 will take effect :p

And you still have been unable to answer for the states that do not confirm citizenship or legal residency when giving drivers licenses, how do you prove you are here legally with nothing else.

I await your reply...
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,914
2,359
126
And you still have been unable to answer for the states that do not confirm citizenship or legal residency when giving drivers licenses, how do you prove you are here legally with nothing else.

I await your reply...

Im not LEO, I dont know what resources are at their fingertips or radio call away, so I cant specifically answer; however, in today's day and age I wouldnt imagine it being that difficult. I think we would need someone who IS LEO in a stop and identify state to respond. Otherwise its speculation.

edit: there are MANY stories, not just from AZ, of citizens who were thought to be illegal. Here's one from WA state and CA: http://articles.latimes.com/2009/apr/09/nation/na-citizen9

Heres one from IL: http://www.dailyherald.com/story/?id=380033
 
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xj0hnx

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2007
9,262
3
76
And you still have been unable to answer for the states that do not confirm citizenship or legal residency when giving drivers licenses, how do you prove you are here legally with nothing else.

I await your reply...

My wife, who is a resident alien, has to carry her card with her, pretty simple really.
 

chucky2

Lifer
Dec 9, 1999
10,038
36
86
If you can't, then you can be held and your state can come get you if they can't themselves prove you're legal. If they don't come get you, then, AZ can put them on a bus and let them off in front of that states capital, or the nearest ICE station, whichever is closest.

If the ICE knowingly lets those people go in AZ without verifying their legal status, then the head ICE manager there will be imprisoned.

There has to be real pain for those involved who will not support this in the absense of something more effective being enacted and enforced.

Chuck
 

thegimp03

Diamond Member
Jul 5, 2004
7,426
2
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I laughed at this: "Justice Department officials believe that enforcing immigration laws is a federal responsibility, the sources said."

Cool, then do something about it.
 

DesiPower

Lifer
Nov 22, 2008
15,366
740
126
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To some extent DesiPower should not be asking the obvious question of how Holder got his job, he should be asking the more important question of why Alberto Gonzales was forced to resign and other US attorney Generals have wound up in jail?

Once the Prez appoints someone to head the Justice department and the Senate approves, there is supposed to be a wall between Partisan politics and the American peoples Justice Department.

DesiPower, you must have Presidents who believed in absolute Presidential power like Nixon and GWB, confused with Obama.

But point granted, you seem to believe Obama ordered Eric Holder to file this suit, but the onus of proof is now on you to prove Obama did. But if anything, the evidence shows, it was internal Justice staff officials that were telling Holder the AZ law was probably unconstitutional even before Holder looked at the issues. In short, exactly like a peoples Justice Department is supposed to act.

Right, I forgot, forgive me, Its all Bush's fault and Obama is the messiah.

Looking at his track record of the things that he has accomplished, I believe he is no different from any of his predecessors, in fact he is even more monkey brained the GWB.
Obama, from the first day is deeply disturbed by the law and he has shown his frustration with it in many speeches, he even sided publicly with Felipe Druglordoron on this. AND... and, my friend, on numerous occation he mentioned," ...I have asked my ppl to look into the legal aspect of it."
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
It's official, lawsuit filed. OP updated. This is going to tank Obamas approval ratings going against such a strong majority of the country.
 

DesiPower

Lifer
Nov 22, 2008
15,366
740
126
It's official, lawsuit filed. OP updated. This is going to tank Obamas approval ratings going against such a strong majority of the country.

muahahahaha.... muahahahaha.... MUAHAHAHAHA

*Edit*
Oh wait, where exactly does it say it failed? it just says Republicans voicing opposition, nowhere does it say that Holder will not hold Obama's... I mean he will not file the suite... :(
 
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Fern

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
173
106
BTW that article has a huge mistake.
"...the Arizona law, which gives police the power to question anyone if they have a "reasonable suspicion" that the person is an illegal immigrant."

They changed the law so if they check your immigration status when you get arrested or when they check your license.... which you would think would be automatic. If I get pulled over and they scan my license, they are going to see whether there are warrants etc. How would it make sense to make an exception for illegal immigration? If I was a criminal on the run, why wouldn't I just say "I don't have a license, my name is Juan Gonzales and I'm an illegal immigrant" to prevent police from ever doing a check?

There's nothing to contribute. This is a partisan circle jerk, and I'm not partisan.

However, given the choice between allowing a certain level of illegal immigration and sacrificing my 4th amendment rights by consenting to being forced to prove my citizenship on demand on American soil, I make the obvious choice.

Re: Throckmorton

Agreed. However note the SCOTUS case I link below ruled "reasonable suspicion is NOT required for police to question anyone about their immigration status.


Re: Vic

You have no "choice" between "a certain level of illegal immigration and sacrificing my 4th amendment rights by consenting to being forced to prove my citizenship on demand on American soil" because the SCOTUS has already ruled police can demand you provide immigration status, they don't even need "reasonable suspicion".

Also your statement about a "certain level of illegal immigration" is key. In many peoples' opinion this "certain level" is now far too high.

Case of MUEHLER et al. v. MENA of the SCOTUS:

http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/se...t al. v. MENA&url=/supct/html/03-1423.ZO.html

The Court of Appeals also determined that the officers violated Mena’s Fourth Amendment rights by questioning her about her immigration status during the detention. 332 F.3d, at 1264—1266. This holding, it appears, was premised on the assumption that the officers were required to have independent reasonable suspicion in order to question Mena concerning her immigration status because the questioning constituted a discrete Fourth Amendment event. But the premise is faulty. We have “held repeatedly that mere police questioning does not constitute a seizure.” Florida v. Bostick, 501 U.S. 429, 434 (1991); see also INS v. Delgado, 466 U.S. 210, 212 (1984). “[E]ven when officers have no basis for suspecting a particular individual, they may generally ask questions of that individual; ask to examine the individual&#146;s identification; and request consent to search his or her luggage.” Bostick, supra, at 434—435 (citations omitted). As the Court of Appeals did not hold that the detention was prolonged by the questioning, there was no additional seizure within the meaning of the Fourth Amendment. Hence, the officers did not need reasonable suspicion to ask Mena for her name, date and place of birth, or immigration status.

I belive there is already SCOTUS precident for allowing states to enforce federal immigration statutes. If so, this, IMO, completely undercuts the DoJ's argument about preemption.

When I find that case, I'll post back, but must log-off now for the day.

Fern
 

Fern

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
173
106
OK, not any SCOTUS case found yet, but check this out:

Here&#8217;s what I want to get through your head: state and local police can enforce federal immigration law. Federal law does not prevent them from doing so.

Don&#8217;t take my word for it. Here are federal court opinions saying so:

In 1983, the United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit -- you read that right, the Ninth Circuit -- concluded, in Gonzales v. City of Peoria, 722 F.2d 468, that, &#8220;Although the regulation of immigration is unquestionably an exclusive federal power, it is clear that this power does not preempt every state activity affecting aliens.&#8221; Rather, when &#8220;state enforcement activities do not impair federal regulatory interests concurrent enforcement is authorized.&#8221; The Court accordingly held &#8220;that federal law does not preclude local enforcement of the criminal provisions&#8221; of federal immigration law.

In 1984, the United States Court of Appeals for the Tenth Circuit likewise ruled, in United States v. Salinas-Calderon, that &#8220;[a] state trooper has general investigatory authority to inquire into possible immigration violations.&#8221;

Fifteen years later, in 1999, the United States Court of Appeals for the Tenth Circuit reaffirmed its position, in United States v. Vasquez-Alvarez, 176 F.3rd 1294, stating, &#8220;this court has long held that state and local law enforcement officers are empowered to arrest for violations of federal law, as long as such arrest is authorized by state law.&#8221;

In 2001, the United States Court of Appeals for the Tenth Circuit ruled again, in United States v. Santana-Garcia, 264 F.3rd 1188, &#8220;that state law enforcement officers within the Tenth Circuit &#8216;have the general authority to investigate and make arrests for violations of federal immigration laws,&#8217; and that federal law as currently written does nothing &#8216;to displace . . . state or local authority to arrest individuals violating federal immigration laws.&#8217; On the contrary, the Court said, &#8220;federal law &#8216;evinces a clear invitation from Congress for state and local agencies to participate in the process of enforcing federal immigration laws.&#8217;&#8221;

In 2001, the United States Court of Appeals for the Eighth Circuit held, in United States v. Rodriguez-Arreola, 270 F.3rd 611, that a state trooper did not violate the defendant&#8217;s rights by questioning him about his immigration status after pulling him over for speeding.

In 2002, the United States Court of Appeals for the Tenth Circuit held, in United States v. Favela-Favela, 41 Fed. Appx. 185, that a state trooper did not violate the defendant&#8217;s rights by asking questions about his immigration status, after pulling the defendant over for a traffic violation and noticing there were 20 people in the van the defendant was driving.

In 2005, the United States Supreme Court held, in Muehler v. Mena, 544 U.S. 93, that police officers who handcuffed a gang member while they executed a search warrant for weapons, did not violate her rights by questioning her about her immigration status. The Court explained, &#8220;[E]ven when officers have no basis for suspecting a particular individual, they may generally ask questions of that individual; ask to examine the individual's identification; and request consent to search his or her luggage."

In 2005, the United States Court of Appeals for the Tenth Circuit confirmed again, in United States v. Hernandez-Dominguez, 1 Fed. Appx. 827, that "[a] state trooper [who has executed a lawful stop] has general investigatory authority to inquire into possible immigration violations."

in 2008, the United States District Court for the Eastern District of Missouri held, in Gray v. City of Valley Park, 2008 U.S. Dist LEXIS 7238, affirmed 2009 U.S. App. LEXIS 12075, that federal law did not preempt a local ordinance suspending the business license of any business that hires illegal aliens.

In 2008, the United States District Court for the District of New Jersey concluded, in Rojas v. City of New Brunswick, 2008 U.S. Dist. LEXIS 57974, that, &#8220;As a general matter, state and local law enforcement officers are not precluded from enforcing federal statutes. Where state enforcement activities do not impair federal regulatory interests concurrent enforcement activity is authorized.&#8221; The Court accordingly held that a city and its police department had authority to investigate and arrest people for possible violations of federal immigration laws.

I could go on and on, but you get the idea.

The people whose legal opinion matters are the men and women who wear black robes, and they have ruled, again and again and again that federal law lets local police enforce federal immigration law.

Source: http://web.mac.com/waltermoore/Walt...lice_Can_Enforce_Federal_Immigration_Law.html

Fern
 
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ConstipatedVigilante

Diamond Member
Feb 22, 2006
7,671
1
0
What are they basing the lawsuit on? Possible civil rights violations? Don't civil rights have to actually be violated first?

Also, all this law does is re-affirm the official Federal policy on illegal immigration. Our government is retarded.

By the way, no one should take Obama for an idiot. The man is intelligent; he just isn't in touch with the American people. He must know that people will be against this, and I bet he has something up his sleeve for the elections.
 
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piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
60
91
How about a Radar intercept system?

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/04/12/fortress_america_radar_masts/

It would probably be of limited use, but it is an idea worth pursuing. A lot of border areas are so rough that motor vehicles break down easily. 130 Degrees in the day. Sand Dune and heavy brush and thorns. No real roads.

The radar towers extend up to about 98 feet and can see in all directions for 12 miles or for 24 miles.
 
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IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
67,987
25,041
136
Make sure to donate to their legal defense fund so we can defeat the Obama attack on a free state.

https://az.gov/app/keepazsafe/index.xhtml

Maybe Jan Brewer could better use those funds toward fixing the AZ budget mess she and the Republican Legislature have created. Nah, makes more political sense to pander to bigots. Jan was a half term wonder until Russell Pearce threw her this bone. Politically, it has worked very well; even in Arizona the press hardly mentions the AZ budget deficit anymore and the complete inability of the Republican Party to govern.
 

peonyu

Platinum Member
Mar 12, 2003
2,038
23
81
What are they basing the lawsuit on? Possible civil rights violations? Don't civil rights have to actually be violated first?

Also, all this law does is re-affirm the official Federal policy on illegal immigration. Our government is retarded.

By the way, no one should take Obama for an idiot. The man is intelligent; he just isn't in touch with the American people. He must know that people will be against this, and I bet he has something up his sleeve for the elections.


If he gets re-elected, then pigs will fly...I bet at most he will recieve 30&#37; of votes come next election [14% from blacks who still fanatically support him, and 16% from other groups combined]. Course I could be wrong, Bush got re-elected.
 
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peonyu

Platinum Member
Mar 12, 2003
2,038
23
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Maybe Jan Brewer could better use those funds toward fixing the AZ budget mess she and the Republican Legislature have created. Nah, makes more political sense to pander to bigots. Jan was a half term wonder until Russell Pearce threw her this bone. Politically, it has worked very well; even in Arizona the press hardly mentions the AZ budget deficit anymore and the complete inability of the Republican Party to govern.

Yea illegal immigration isnt a big issue, lets just sweep it under the rug and pretend its not there. Sure that works well, it has worked so well from 1986 [the last amnesty given out] up to this day.